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Another BALDNAZI case...here's my story

Good to hear that things are recovering for you now. I had an ultrasound done and they said my liver was enlarged, but the CT that I just had said it was normal. Go figure. The dr. said the CT was more accurate. Pain in the ass with all the shit they make you drink and then the i.v., then the hot flash from the dye. No fun, I know what you have been through.

I have been a steroid abuser in the past but have learned from my mistakes. I will limit cycle duration and doses in the future. I probably won't do tren much any more. Just deca, eq, test, and some d-bols for a short time. You sound like you are monitoring things good with the bloodwork and all - you should be alright in the future if you keep things in perspective. You won't be able to do the doses to be as big as Ronnie, lol. :mad:
 
IBdMfkr said:
Hey S, I remember you telling me about your disposition.. Hope everything works out, let me know if I can help in anyway.

peace

Thanks a lot bro. I really appreciate that. I was gonna hit you with an email to give you an update, but I figured you would be over here sooner or later. This really sucks, but I am trying to be optimistic and hoping for the best. Be careful bro and take care, I'll be in touch.
 
Hey Hella.. i feel for ya bro. Man I will be honest with you, before reading your post and posting a few days ago on the IGF- Cancer thread and talking with Grunt and Celtic.. i was reading to jump back into the AAS and chemical game after a year and half layoff. Now i am seriously rethinking and giving it up altogether. I am 30 years old and done about 3 to 4 cycles over the past 6 to 7 years.. and honestly taken some pretty harsh stuff in moderate dosages. Luckly I have never had any really bad sides except for the Tren. I agree with most everyone on here that I really believe Tren needs much more respect then people give it!! I was up over 300+ milligrams of that shit for up to 10 weeks. I admit i was sooo wrong. I had the same thing of some of the other bros.. lower back pain, rusty looking piss.. it sucked. Now this time around other than one compound i was considering... I actually just thought of using some small test doase up to 400mg a week and Var or T-bol. Now i am really freaked out about the Var and T-bol because of what is being said about the orals. I assume Var is just as hard on the liver as the rest of them i suppose. I was also considering IGF and some of the new stuff, but like celtic said in one of his threads... no one knows the long term side effects. The only compound I love and having such a hard time giving up is the DNP which might be the most dangerous shit out there. Anyways, hella your in my prayers bro.. and I wanted to thank you and the other bro's for really making me think my AAS and chemical use alltogether now. Thanks guys
 
A couple of studies I have found that may be of interest to you all:

* Velazquez I,
* Alter BP.

Clinical Genetics Branch, Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, National Cancer Institute, Department of Health and Human Services, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA.

The association between anabolic androgenic steroids and liver tumors was first noted in patients with Fanconi's anemia (FA). The hypotheses which led to this review were as follows: (1) androgen-treated individuals who do not have FA are also at risk of liver tumors; (2) parenteral as well as oral androgens may be responsible for liver tumors; (3) FA patients develop liver tumors after smaller and briefer androgen exposure than non-FA individuals; (4) the risk of hepatic neoplasms may depend on the specific androgen. Medline and Web of Science were searched for all cases of liver tumors associated with androgens. Information from individual cases was entered into a spreadsheet and descriptive statistical analyses were performed. Thirty-six FA cases and 97 non-FA cases with both nonhematologic disorders and acquired aplastic anemia (non-FA AA) were identified. The most common androgens were oxymetholone, methyltestosterone, and danazol. Hepatocellular carcinomas (HCC) were more often associated with oxymetholone and methyltestosterone, while adenomas were associated with danazol. Tumors were reported in six patients who received only parenteral and not oral androgens. FA patients were younger than non-FA patients when androgen use was initiated, and the FA patients developed tumors at younger ages. Non-AA patients were treated with androgens for longer periods of time, compared with FA and non-FA AA patients. All patients on anabolic androgenic steroids are at risk of liver tumors, regardless of underlying diagnosis. The magnitude of the risk cannot be determined from currently available data, because the number of patients receiving androgens is unknown.

PMID: 15495253 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links

* Multiple hepatic tumors and peliosis hepatis in Fanconi's
 
* Socas L,
* Zumbado M,
* Perez-Luzardo O,
* Ramos A,
* Perez C,
* Hernandez JR,
* Boada LD.

Department of Radiology, Cajal Clinical Centre, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain.

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are used illicitly at high doses by bodybuilders. The misuse of these drugs is associated with serious adverse effects to the liver, including cellular adenomas and adenocarcinomas. We report two very different cases of adult male bodybuilders who developed hepatocellular adenomas following AAS abuse. The first patient was asymptomatic but had two large liver lesions which were detected by ultrasound studies after routine medical examination. The second patient was admitted to our hospital with acute renal failure and ultrasound (US) studies showed mild hepatomegaly with several very close hyperecogenic nodules in liver, concordant with adenomas at first diagnosis. In both cases the patients have evolved favourably and the tumours have shown a tendency to regress after the withdrawal of AAS. The cases presented here are rare but may well be suggestive of the natural course of AAS induced hepatocellular adenomas. In conclusion, sportsmen taking AAS should be considered as a group at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone related tumours. Consequently, they should be carefully and periodically monitored with US studies. In any case, despite the size of the tumours detected in these two cases, the possibility of spontaneous tumour regression must also be taken in account.

PMID: 15849280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
LOOKS LIKE ANADROL MAY BE A POSSIBLE SINGLE CULPRIT:

* Nakao A,
* Sakagami K,
* Nakata Y,
* Komazawa K,
* Amimoto T,
* Nakashima K,
* Isozaki H,
* Takakura N,
* Tanaka N.

Department of Surgery, Shobara Red Cross Hospital, Japan.

We report a rare case of hepatic adenomas (HA), in a 20-year-old Japanese girl treated for 6 years with anabolic androgens for aplastic anemia. The patient was referred to us because of liver lesions detected during a follow-up examination for familial adenomatous polyposis. After being diagnosed with aplastic anemia at 14 years of age, she had been treated with oxymetholone (30 mg/day) for 6 years. Laboratory evaluation revealed normal liver function. Ultrasonography (US) and computed tomography (CT) demonstrated multiple liver lesions. Histopathological examinations of biopsied specimens from the liver tumor showed HA. After the patient was diagnosed with HA, oxymetholone was tapered off. Patients taking androgenic-anabolic steroids should be carefully monitored with US and CT and tumor markers should be measured. This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors.

PMID: 10905366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
BAsed on all my readings there seems to be a common denominator there there is are androgen and estrogen resceptors in the liver which can induce hypertrophy of benign tumor tissue in the liver. Here is a study with a guy who was on Test E for a long time. Above some of the studies mention androgens such as anadrol, but we all know tren is probalby the strongest androgen out there...meaning increased risk of a liver tumor....

* Carrasco D,
* Prieto M,
* Pallardo L,
* Moll JL,
* Cruz JM,
* Munoz C,
* Berenguer J.

We report a case of multiple hepatic adenomas developed in a 32-year-old man with renal allograft after long-term therapy with testosterone enanthate. Histological assessment showed a benign hepatocellular adenoma, which has not regressed over a 6-month follow-up since androgen withdrawal. A review of primary hepatic tumors associated with androgenic-anabolic steroid therapy published in the English literature has been carried out, concentrating on the more relevant recent publications. No previous case of hepatic adenoma with possible relationship to the use of non-17-alpha alkylated compounds has been reported.

PMID: 2997324 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Interesting articles.. is this mainly the result of taking anabolics orally or injectables having a unfavorable effect on the liver as well?
 
IBdMfkr said:
Interesting articles.. is this mainly the result of taking anabolics orally or injectables having a unfavorable effect on the liver as well?

I am mainly just speculating, but based on my research it doesn't seem to matter if it is injectable or oral. From what I gather, my theory is just that the two culprits in the whole equation are (1) androgens and (2) estrogens.
SO...test could be just as guilty of a culprit it seems as anadrol, although I am sure anadrol would get you there quicker. As you can see in one of the studies I posted above, one guy had this happen and was on ONLY test Enanthate...which we all know is an androgen. It seems there are estrogen and androgen receptors in the liver and when you have higher levels of either of the two hormones in the bloodstream, you are at an increased risk for an adenoma or some other kind of benign growth in the liver. I used an anti-e (aromasin)pretty much the whole time I was on, but I was on test for an extended duration (15 months) which is obviously an androgen. We all know there are many guys who have been on higher levels of test for much longer than I have (higher doses too) who have no problems, which leads me to believe that maybe some are just genetically pre-disposed to this happening or there are some other underlying factors that contribute to this, or maybe just the perfect mixture of it all...who knows. I am no doctor so this is obviously all speculation, but Either way, I think it would be more than worth it to cautious of this and get checked out every once in a while (meaning an abdominal MRI or CT scan).

Oh yea, I forgot to mention. In most of the female cases of hepatic adenomas, the cause was directly linked to birth control...more specifically the high dose of estrogen delivered with oral contraceptives. Today there has been a HUGE DECREASE in the occurrence of these cases in females as compared to in the past. The studies I have read stated that this is believed to be because the strength of the regularly prescribed birth control pills today are much lower than what they were in the past. So if estrogen was the cause in females, I don't see why it wouldn't be a cause in male AAS users. Another note I would like to make is that time seemed to be a common denominator that was mentioned in many of the studies. It always said "a cause of LONG TERM use of oral contraceptives or AAS" So maybe it is not really dose dependent either, which would explain why this shit happened to me while being relatively moderate with my dosing protocols.
 
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Its funny, but you would think that if its Androgens and Estro.. that taking products that are more anabolic than androgenic would be the easiest on the body.. Also products that do not convert to Estro. I dont know
 
HELLA SWOLE said:
BAsed on all my readings there seems to be a common denominator there there is are androgen and estrogen resceptors in the liver which can induce hypertrophy of benign tumor tissue in the liver. Here is a study with a guy who was on Test E for a long time. Above some of the studies mention androgens such as anadrol, but we all know tren is probalby the strongest androgen out there...meaning increased risk of a liver tumor....

These are great articles, all very informative. And your deducive reasoning has gotten us closer to the answer - the more androgenic the substance, the higher the risk of problems. I think you just nailed the answer here also regarding Tren - it's the strongest androgen and thus the strongest candidate for being the most dangerous substance to promote tumors. But then you focus on the Test E. That's just one guy. Tren so far has three case studys: in this very forum!!


HELLA SWOLE said:
I am mainly just speculating, but based on my research it doesn't seem to matter if it is injectable or oral. From what I gather, my theory is just that the two culprits in the whole equation are (1) androgens and (2) estrogens.
SO...test could be just as guilty of a culprit it seems as anadrol, although I am sure anadrol would get you there quicker.

But the argument isn't whether or not any steroid could give you tumors in the long run - I think this isn't the point. The point is which one is the most dangerous at the lowest dosages? And in the shortest amount of time. It seems that dose for dose tren is the strongest anabolic / androgenic out there and will cause the most problems with the lowest dose.

HELLA SWOLE said:
As you can see in one of the studies I posted above, one guy had this happen and was on ONLY test Enanthate...which we all know is an androgen.

True, but then you could find another person who took a few advil and developed a tumor because of an inherent sensitivity and your argument about androgens being the problem is moot. I prefer to look at studies with at least 50 participants or more, rather than doing a case study on a person-by-person basis, because this is how you can jump to conclusions without strong evidence.

HELLA SWOLE said:
I was on test for an extended duration (15 months) which is obviously an androgen. We all know there are many guys who have been on higher levels of test for much longer than I have (higher doses too) who have no problems, which leads me to believe that maybe some are just genetically pre-disposed to this happening or there are some other underlying factors that contribute to this

I feel you trying to reason out the Tren argument. I think it's pretty clear from your first statement that dose-for-dose tren is the most dangerous and obvious cause of liver problems. But you're using evidence that since one thing is anabolic / androgenic that somehow it's also a contributor. True, but that's not the same as saying tren is the worst.

HELLA SWOLE said:
So maybe it is not really dose dependent either, which would explain why this shit happened to me while being relatively moderate with my dosing protocols.

I agree that it's not dose dependent: 75 - 150mg of tren is worse than 500mg testosterone. It's the substance that counts, not the amount of the dose in terms of mg.

But I still think that your problems arose after the tren was added. You said 7 months after you stopped the tren you had issues, but prior to using tren you had no signs or issues whatsoever. So after a successful run of moderate dosing with no problems, in less than a year you're at risk for tumors? That's pointing to the tren in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
LOL, damn bro. Let me preface my post by saying that It seems like you are taking my responses to these studies out of context or at least just taking them the wrong way all together. I was in NO WAY trying to say that this was blamed completely on test, or that tren was or was not a factor in this at all. I was never trying to prove you wrong at all. The main reason I posted these studies was out of sheer interest. I was researching the case that I am dealing with over Pubmed (since I am worried to shit with my situation right now and want to educate myself as much as possible on it) and these were some interesting studies that I felt some of the members may like to read. Now....on to your comments....

BrooklynBB said:
But the argument isn't whether or not any steroid could give you tumors in
the long run - I think this isn't the point. The point is which one is the most dangerous at the lowest dosages? And in the shortest amount of time. It seems that dose for dose tren is the strongest anabolic / androgenic out there and will cause the most problems with the lowest dose.

First of all, I did not know there was an argument here at all. I am hoping we are not arguing, because if we were, I was unaware of it :confused:
I agree with you about the tren being the strongest dose for dose. And yes, I believe it is probably the most dangerous... I, however, believe that these cases have more to do with estrogen than they do with androgens in the blood stream. I deduct this reasoning from the fact that adenomas in females have been linked mostly to oral contraceptives due to the amounts of estrogen they release into the bloodstream. Now, men and women are obviously COMPLETELY different, but if this is the case with females, I don't see why it wouldn't be a strong determining factor in males...at the very least.

BrooklynBB said:
True, but then you could find another person who took a few advil and developed a tumor because of an inherent sensitivity and your argument about androgens being the problem is moot. I prefer to look at studies with at least 50 participants or more, rather than doing a case study on a person-by-person basis, because this is how you can jump to conclusions without strong evidence.

I agree, I would rather look at studies with larger testing groups as well, but like I said these studies were posted out of sheer interest, nothing else. I though tsome of the studies may be interesting to read and help educate some members on the subject a little better. However, just because SOME of these journals were based on just ONE test subject, does not mean they should be entirely disregarded or not, at least, taken into some consideration.

Now, just so we are clear here.... I never had an argument. Everything I have been posting, and quite frankly, everything you have been posting is all speculation at this point. Neither of us are Ph.D's (at least i don't think) and neither of us are MD's (I don't think again). However, even if we were, I would still doubt that either of us would COMPLETELY know what was going on here. I base that last statement off the fact that most studies I have read even state that it is still unknown which factors may or may not contribute to the growth of these tumors. Sure, there is an idea, but they do not know why it happens in some, while others it doesn't nor do they know what special combination of any of the presumed culprits would be the FOR SURE equation for a cause such as this.


BrooklynBB said:
I feel you trying to reason out the Tren argument. I think it's pretty clear from your first statement that dose-for-dose tren is the most dangerous and obvious cause of liver problems. But you're using evidence that since one thing is anabolic / androgenic that somehow it's also a contributor. True, but that's not the same as saying tren is the worst.

No, you are completely wrong here. I am not trying to reason out the tren argument at all. Matter of fact, I do think tren is the worst. It is a VERY strong compound and has profound effects on the body it seems (from my personal experience and there experiences of others). But then again you have to think about this....many other people have used tren at doses WAYYY higher than myself and had no problems. This, at the same time, is also true if we are talking about the amounts of testosterone used by other bodybuilders (compared to the amounts used by myself). I am mainly just trying to find answeres for MY case in particular. Have you ever had something really bad happen to you and you don't know the reason why it happened? Or have you ever had no closure to something before? Yea, well this is what is going on with me. Not knowing why something happens, especially something bad, is very bothersome....at least to me.



BrooklynBB said:
I agree that it's not dose dependent: 75 - 150mg of tren is worse than 500mg testosterone. It's the substance that counts, not the amount of the dose in terms of mg.

I think you mis-interpreted what I wrote here. Actually I think you misinterpreted most of my posts on this thread based on your response LOL. The reason I said that it didn't seem to be dose dependent was for the fact that there are studies showing cases like this happening in people using VERY low dosages, and as well as cases with people using a higher dosing protocol. Therefore, prior susceptibility would seem to be an obvious cause. However, one thing that is common in all the studies is DURATION. All occurrences seemed to happen in people who were on for long periods of time....this includes myself and BN.

BrooklynBB said:
But I still think that your problems arose after the tren was added. You said 7 months after you stopped the tren you had issues, but prior to using tren you had no signs or issues whatsoever. So after a successful run of moderate dosing with no problems, in less than a year you're at risk for tumors? That's pointing to the tren in my opinion.

I think you are a little ignorant on this topic bro. For all I know, for all you know, or for all the doctors know, this thing could/probably has been growing inside me for quite some time. Baldnazi's doctor said to him that he suspected his lesion to be growing for years prior to it's rupture. The only reason I had issues 7 months AFTER using the tren was because this is when they were FOUND...BY CHANCE....no other reasons...not because of symtpoms/ "problems" or anything of that nature. If it weren't for the cat scan for my appendicitis I would still be clueless. Which leads me to believe that this thing started out very small and I seemed to have an increased susceptibility to it and it grew relatively fast over time.

Let me close this post by saying that it seems we are on different pages here. I understand this because the internet can be a very hard place to determine someones TONE when all you can do is READ their thoughts instead of actually hearing them speak them. I think you may have taken some of my posts the wrong way or thought that I was inferring something that I most certainly was not. This may even be the case with me, because based on the words I am reading that you have typed, I am sensing you to be a little argumentative or upset. If this is the case, then I would appreciate you explaining why, but if I am completely wrong here and am just mis-interpreting things (which is completely understandable given that this is the internet) then please just tell me and I will be fine with it. I would like to say though, that I agree with you on the tren!! lol :)
 
HELLA SWOLE, there are two articles on steroids and the liver on mindandmuscle.com which are pretty good. If you haven't read them take a look. The most recent one has a pretty interesting hypothesis for the cause of the toxicity.

Also, don't forget all the other substances we may hammer our livers with concurrently with the steroids. Stuff like Nolvadex -read the PDR. It does mention peliosis hepatitis IIRC i.e. blood filled liver cysts. The same side that has been reported with Anadrol.
 
Last edited:
HELLA SWOLE said:
LOOKS LIKE ANADROL MAY BE A POSSIBLE SINGLE CULPRIT:

* Nakao A,
* Sakagami K,
* Nakata Y,
* Komazawa K,
* Amimoto T,
* Nakashima K,
* Isozaki H,
* Takakura N,
* Tanaka N.

Department of Surgery, Shobara Red Cross Hospital, Japan.

We report a rare case of hepatic adenomas (HA), in a 20-year-old Japanese girl treated for 6 years with anabolic androgens for aplastic anemia. The patient was referred to us because of liver lesions detected during a follow-up examination for familial adenomatous polyposis. After being diagnosed with aplastic anemia at 14 years of age, she had been treated with oxymetholone (30 mg/day) for 6 years. Laboratory evaluation revealed normal liver function. Ultrasonography (US) and computed tomography (CT) demonstrated multiple liver lesions. Histopathological examinations of biopsied specimens from the liver tumor showed HA. After the patient was diagnosed with HA, oxymetholone was tapered off. Patients taking androgenic-anabolic steroids should be carefully monitored with US and CT and tumor markers should be measured. This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors.

PMID: 10905366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



From this artical looks like ultrasound can find the lesions.. Glad I had one about 5 months ago for liver side pain.. they could not find anything.. if it starts up again going to get a CT scan.
 
killerdice357 said:
From this artical looks like ultrasound can find the lesions.. Glad I had one about 5 months ago for liver side pain.. they could not find anything.. if it starts up again going to get a CT scan.

Yes, an ultra sound should be able to see it as well, but it may not if they aren't looking for it. A CT/MRI gives you a better overall view
 
HELLA SWOLE said:
KIllerstack-I typed in the URL www.mindandmuscle.com to check out those threads and it doesn't seem to be a working site? Is it somethign else?


Try **broken link removed**, bro.

Thanks for posting up all the studies you're finding!

Best of luck to you, and keep the great attitude.
 
phatrr said:
Try **broken link removed**, bro.

Thanks for posting up all the studies you're finding!

Best of luck to you, and keep the great attitude.

Thanks bro, that was a good read.
 

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