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Another Blood donation thread

Well, you'd first have to ask yourself is there a need to decrease HCT. If you lived at 4000m with a HCT of 60 you would be considered normal and no one would be discussing treatment. Should there be a different normal for people on exogenous androgens? Again, we are talking about the same condition here, secondary polycythemia. In every other instance of secondary polycythemia increased HCT is seen as normal. I've heard people like Nelson Vergel equate EPO use and stroke to androgens based on HCT numbers and this is just pure horseshit. One is a natural adaptation, one is not.



That being said, there is really nothing you can do but remove the cause. Dante has a great post on his Instagram I would refer you to if you haven't read it. It has a picture of an IP-6 bottle from Swanson. There are two applications that were quite brilliant in their inception. I haven't seen them work personally but I trust Dante and there really is nothing else. Hydrate as you said, low dose aspirin, BP control, the obvious countermeasures. But it's the same as at altitude, the only way to really change it is move to sea level or quit androgens.



The Canadians have guidelines that call for cessation of T at HCT of 54. Doctors, instead of losing patients, have started therapeutic phlebotomy instead despite zero evidence that it does anything positive. "Our findings raise concerns about the persistent risk of vascular events in these donors, particularly when coupled with the misperception by patients and health care providers that donation has reduced or eliminated the risks of TRT-induced polycythemia."

Transfusion. 2017 Mar;57(3):578-581. doi: 10.1111/trf.13970. Epub 2017 Feb 1.

Blood donation and testosterone replacement therapy



Again, if there is risk, phlebotomy won't help. If increased HCT bothers you, quit androgens or get over it.



Personally I take IP-6 at 2 gms qd, low dose ASA, ARB & PDE5 inhibitor.



Rex.

Thanks @Rex Feral for the reply, appreciated...

What concerns me is actually having been off trt for about 1.5 yrs and still have borderline to high hemoglobin and hematocrit

Last blood draw my hamatocrit was only 51.4 yet hemoglobin was 17.5..... something doesnt add up and rbc's were 5.94.... its not about androgen usage for me at least as ive never cycled in my life, i was placed on trt due to low t, and it took a few years for my levels to climb, like 8-10 yrs, iron was never an issue for me, ever, even while haveing plebos by my phlebotomist and putting fluids back in.... And having lived at both sea level and above 7000 ft.... Never had an issue until about 8-10yrs into trt

Hydration, yes i need to hyper focus on that as well as cardio to see where i can show lower numbers... Imo

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 
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Thanks @Rex Feral for the reply, appreciated...

What concerns me is actually having been off trt for about 1.5 yrs and still have borderline to high hemoglobin and hematocrit

Last blood draw my hamatocrit was only 51.4 yet hemoglobin was 17.5..... something doesnt add up and rbc's were 5.94.... its not about androgen usage for me at least as ive never cycled in my life, i was placed on trt due to low t, and it took a few years for my levels to climb, like 8-10 yrs, iron was never an issue for me, ever, even while haveing plebos by my phlebotomist and putting fluids back in.... And having lived at both sea level and above 7000 ft.... Never had an issue until about 8-10yrs into trt

Hydration, yes i need to hyper focus on that as well as cardio to see where i can show lower numbers... Imo

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Do a sleep study and get tested for apnea.
 
I've heard people like Nelson Vergel equate EPO use and stroke to androgens based on HCT numbers and this is just pure horseshit. One is a natural adaptation, one is not.

bump

Rex, if you are still reading this, can you please elaborate on why there is a difference between exogeneous EPO and exogeneous androgens? I'm losing my mind trying to understand this since my hematocrit is so high that I don't know whether to worry or not. I've re-read your posts at least four times already.
 
bump

Rex, if you are still reading this, can you please elaborate on why there is a difference between exogeneous EPO and exogeneous androgens? I'm losing my mind trying to understand this since my hematocrit is so high that I don't know whether to worry or not. I've re-read your posts at least four times already.
I can understand the feelings of anxiety and worry you are currently having. I want to let you know you're not alone as I have been there myself. A few things come to mind: How do you feel on a daily basis? How do you feel performing high intensity sets that require a lot of oxygen?

I am obviously not advocating going entirely on 'feel' to determine whether or not you're in good health, but your BP would be elevated and you would likely have symptoms of breathlessness etc if it were a major concern. Obviously tragedy can happen--it can happen to any of us--but I would rest assured that you've been fine all this time and all your tests OTHER THAN CBC are coming back normal. Again, just trying to give you peace of mind, brother!
 
I can understand the feelings of anxiety and worry you are currently having. I want to let you know you're not alone as I have been there myself. A few things come to mind: How do you feel on a daily basis? How do you feel performing high intensity sets that require a lot of oxygen?

I am obviously not advocating going entirely on 'feel' to determine whether or not you're in good health, but your BP would be elevated and you would likely have symptoms of breathlessness etc if it were a major concern. Obviously tragedy can happen--it can happen to any of us--but I would rest assured that you've been fine all this time and all your tests OTHER THAN CBC are coming back normal. Again, just trying to give you peace of mind, brother!

That's the thing, I feel completely fine. Cardio is as good as ever. BP is good, etc. Other than the anxiety I just got from knowing the number is so high. So while I "should" be ok based on the fact I feel good, I can't stop freaking out knowing what happened to those cyclists on EPO. I was rejected from donating blood yesterday because my hemoglobin was 21. I even made sure to have two meals with fruits and veggies before to ensure hydration. I don't know what the heck to do. The worst part is doctors do not understand the relationship between androgens and H/H, so it's not like I can trust a physician to know what to do with me.
 
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That's the thing, I feel completely fine. Cardio is as good as ever. BP is good, etc. Other than the anxiety I just got from knowing the number is so high. So while I "should" be ok based on the fact I feel good, I can't stop freaking out knowing what happened to those cyclists on EPO. I was rejected from donating blood yesterday because my hemoglobin was 21. I even made sure to have two meals with fruits and veggies before to ensure hydration. I don't know what the heck to do. The worst part is doctors do not understand the relationship between androgens and H/H, so it's not like I can trust a physician to know what to do with me.

Cross your fingers that these dudes are right, and Nelson Vergel and I are wrong about HCT/HGB and risk of cardiac pathology like atherosclerosis, stroke/MI, and increase risk of embolism.


Some guys self-phlebotomize which is pretty hardcore but it works. You could also get a script from a doctor for it.


Some guys with your hemoglobin would have pretty bad shortness of breath and headaches, but many men are asymptomatic. Many men who have a stroke/heart attack are also asymptomatic before it strikes.
 
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Cross your fingers that these dudes are right, and Nelson Vergel and I are wrong about HCT/HGB and risk of cardiac pathology like atherosclerosis, stroke/MI, and increase risk of embolism.


Some guys self-phlebotomize which is pretty hardcore but it works. You could also get a script from a doctor for it.


Some guys with your hemoglobin would have pretty bad shortness of breath and headaches, but many men are asymptomatic. Many men who have a stroke/heart attack are also asymptomatic before it strikes.

I am trying to see a hematologist and sleep doctor asap. I have no other warning signs of MI/stroke so that's better than if I did have them. No idea if CAC score matters but it's 0 so I guess it can't hurt. A1C and CRP always very good too (stroke risk markers). Very scary though.
 
I am trying to see a hematologist and sleep doctor asap. I have no other warning signs of MI/stroke so that's better than if I did have them. No idea if CAC score matters but it's 0 so I guess it can't hurt. A1C and CRP always very good too (stroke risk markers). Very scary though.

Good luck
 
I am trying to see a hematologist and sleep doctor asap. I have no other warning signs of MI/stroke so that's better than if I did have them. No idea if CAC score matters but it's 0 so I guess it can't hurt. A1C and CRP always very good too (stroke risk markers). Very scary though.
Chances are you're fine, but with a hemo of 21, it's worth investigating. There are chances sleep apnea is playing a role, in which case the sleep specialist will be a step in the right direction.
 
Chances are you're fine, but with a hemo of 21, it's worth investigating. There are chances sleep apnea is playing a role, in which case the sleep specialist will be a step in the right direction.

Well I got lucky. I returned today and my HGB via finger prick was 20.2. That is still barely too high but the girl was very nice and let it slide after I pleaded with her about it. I feel a lot more peace of mind after being able to donate today. I'll be visiting a sleep doctor in a month which was the earliest they can do.
 
Well I got lucky. I returned today and my HGB via finger prick was 20.2. That is still barely too high but the girl was very nice and let it slide after I pleaded with her about it. I feel a lot more peace of mind after being able to donate today. I'll be visiting a sleep doctor in a month which was the earliest they can do.

That's awesome, congrats man.
 

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