Any endurance athletes?

[nickels]

Sorry for coming off as an ass. I forget I'm on a bodybuilding forum and most don't know about how different athletes train. Cyclist short and long distance train in a similar fashion as short and long distance runners. A sprint cyclist and sprint runner would see very little benefit from long distance training. In fact 100 M sprinters rarely even run 100M in training. Most the training is lifting, speed training, and 10-15M sprints.

Oh okay, I gotcha.

Of course I get the concept that for short bursts of speed would require a totally different kind of training than endurance, but it's surprising to hear that sprinters only 10-15 meters at a time.

I'm also wondering where the point of diminishing returns would be for the average sprinter (in cycling or running). In other words, even when only doing 10 meters at a time, cumulatively that must add up to a lot of meters overall for the week, right?

 

[mikennrg]

Without getting too deep into specifics speed training works so quickly that you would get diminishing returns very quickly. Increasing force production through weight training takes much, much longer than speed work so weight training is a high priority.

They also do a great deal of soft tissue work(foam rolling, ART, etc) and mobility work.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

He squats high bar but doesn't seem to push his knees out at all.

 

[dj]

A lot of guys talk about AAS and the "pumps" etc. not good for endurance.. I NEVER experienced that problem at all. I also had thousands of miles in my legs before I started using it.Floyd Landis got busted for Test after winning the Tour, and to detect exogenous test he must have been running 250-300 a week at least and he was climbing mountains like a stallion. So I'm not sure I understand this "pump" problem...maybe people are running too much.

Swag glad to see another endurance guy here, but I have to respectfully disagree on a few things. Pumps are real and can be dosage dependent sure but they can also be related to the product being used. Honestly a lot of endurance guys are ditching AAS altogether and just running a SERM cycle or HCG to slightly increase nat test., cause that is all the endurance athlete needs. Anything more you start to hold water which means more weight and contributes to pumps.

I've ran a few low dose TE cycles and had no issues until I added just 125mg of Eq...cut the Eq, pumps were gone within a week or two.

Yes, some guys can run var and not get pumps but the majority do get them even though var looks really good on paper. Sounds like it works for you and the guys that it does work for love it, but as I said most get severe pumps in the low back or shins that keep them from continuing training/racing. Everyone is different.

I will say I'm interested in trying var for the reasons that you post and probably will at some time.

From my understanding most Grand Tour guys use oral Andriol in very low doses and not injectables due to the detection time. They do n't take it every day, only when they need a boost in recovery. Both Floyd and Tyler have documented this in various forms.

Not trying to be a dick but you can't believe that 300mg of test fueled Floyd on his stage victory in 2006. High crit level from EPO or doping and fricken guts plus maybe a little test undeconoate and HGH. You don't get endurance or power from test... you get it from training and recovering.

 

[ram]

:yeahthat:

 

[RickGrimes]

Interesting read-

Recently, American cyclist Floyd Landis won the grueling test of endurance and athletic power known as the Tour de France, succeeding another American, seven-time winner Lance Armstrong. Before he could savor his victory, though, sports officials announced that Landis' urine had tested positive for testosterone. Within days the finding was confirmed by testing another of his samples; however, Landis pleaded innocent to the charges of doping, saying that he used no banned substances in his quest to win the race. Landis' protestations seemed hollow with the announcement that his testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio was 17-to-1. The normal ratio is 1-to-1, with an upper normal limit of 4-to-1. Anything over 6-to-1 is considered proof of testosterone use, though some rare athletes have a natural ratio of 10-to-1.

At this time no adequate explanation has been offered for Landis' highly elevated testosterone levels, though he still denies using any type of testosterone drug. it isn't the first time that rumors of rampant drug use by Tour de Prance athletes have emerged. Armstrong has been dogged with accusations that he used various banned substances during his championship tenure, despite never having failed a drug test.

The drugs most often linked to endurance events, such as the Tour de France, are those related to blood doping, which in years past meant stored red blood cells were injected back into the body, leading to an elevated hemoglobin level in the blood. That, in turn, gave the blood increased oxygen delivery capacity, which translated into increased endurance and diminished fatigue.

The original blood-doping system wasn't perfect, however. The technique could lead to an overabundance of red blood cells, abnormally thickening the blood. That not only decreased oxygen delivery to muscle but also increased the risk of internal blood clots and strokes.

That form was supplanted by recombinant erythropoietin, or EPO, a hormone produced in the kidneys that boosts red blood cell production much in the manner of the old blood-doping technique. Some of the same side effects, such as increased blood thickness, can also occur with EPO. One advantage of EPO is that it's hard to detect in doping tests.

Newer tests, however, take advantage of the fact that EPO and a longer-acting version called darbepoetin both contain additional sugar chains in their structures that aren't present in naturally produced EPO. When they detect those extraneous sugar residues, the test is considered positive for EPO.

While the advantages of using EPO seem clear for various endurance sports, the picture for anabolic steroids and endurance sports is murkier. No one questions the effectiveness of steroids for sports that involve strength and power, but the medical literature examining them in endurance sports is equivocal at best.

Steroids aid such sports through improved training recovery. Athletes walk a fine line between making training progress and overtraining. Anything that forestalls overtraining tips the balance toward progress. Steroids may help prevent overtraining through their pronounced anabolic effects on muscle and their positive effects on the restoration of muscle glycogen, the rate-limiting fuel source for most sports. Positively influencing the rate of glycogen synthesis would be a definite advantage.

Steroids provide a minor blood-doping effect because they promote EPO synthesis in the kidneys. Anadrol-50, a popular oral anabolic steroid, was originally used in medicine to treat a hereditary disease called Fanconi anemia. The increased red blood cell production could offer endurance athletes an edge.

Many endurance athletes use human growth hormone, not to increase muscle growth but to foster greater training recovery-and because GH offers connective-tissue protection. It may help prevent injuries incurred during hard training and speed the healing of those that do occur. GH also promotes beneficial body composition changes, mainly lower bodyfat levels.

Along with the advantages of various anabolic drugs, there are a few significant problems linked to their use. The most notable disadvantage is getting caught in a positive doping test. Both anabolic steroids and OH have potent water-retaining effects that could prove a problem in events that require speed. One way around that is the diuretics many bodybuilders use to counter the water-retaining effects of anabolics. Since diuretics are also banned in most sports, athletes use versions that pass under the drug-detecting radar. Such "designer diuretics" are widely used in bodybuilding, especially in the pro ranks.

A recent study examined whether using two types of anabolic steroids improved endurance performance. Endurance athletes took either a placebo or testosterone and nandrolone (Durabolin) 12 times for a month. The doses and use of the drugs mimicked the ones used by real-world athletes. Interestingly, those who used the drugs showed no improvements over those who used the placebo.

The notion that testosterone use was largely responsible for Floyd Landis' Tour de France victory is mistaken at best. Odds are good that dozens of other cyclists in that race were using similar drugs but weren't tested. Or they may have used so- called designer steroids that aren't detectable in testing procedures, or perhaps human growth hormone, also undetectable. Landis won on his athletic ability, not his alleged testosterone use.

Those who doubt the assertion can easily test it by traveling to France, renting a bicycle, then following the route of the Tour de France. My guess is that you won't get far, even if you triple the dose of the steroid used by some pro bodybuilders. As the saying goes, it's not the wand-it's the magician.

 

[Swaglantern]

While mostly true regarding track racing - a lot of track racers move into sprinter positions for pro road racing teams - races that are 100+ miles long. Not all of them though. A lot of them also professionally road race along with track racing. So they obviously put in a lot of miles. We all know that a lot of musculature doesn't necessarily equate to strength - sometimes it does - sometimes not. If you google "track cyclists legs" or something, you will see different sizes and styles of musculature based on body type. Also - training has changed a lot. We no longer just go out and ride mile after mile. There are anaerobic/threshold workouts that just last an hour long. Strength/big gear work outs. High cadence workouts...and endurance. There are lots of studies that suggest that high intensity pyramid anaerobic workouts can be just as beneficial as long distance training at a moderate level. And all training is sport specific - there is not much proof that moving big weight in the gym will transfer to big strength on the bike. It can help, but it doesn't always. It's better to strength train ON the bike.

 

[Swaglantern]

Swag glad to see another endurance guy here, but I have to respectfully disagree on a few things. Pumps are real and can be dosage dependent sure but they can also be related to the product being used. Honestly a lot of endurance guys are ditching AAS altogether and just running a SERM cycle or HCG to slightly increase nat test., cause that is all the endurance athlete needs. Anything more you start to hold water which means more weight and contributes to pumps.

Pumps are real, but I totally believe that it's either dosage or genetics. Every athlete that speaks of pumps, etc..is usually a body builder that runs body building dosages of gear, and then complains about pumps regarding endurance. This is too anecdotal. Steroids have been used for years for endurance athletes in the olympics, and cycling and this pump phenomenon has never been a deciding factor. You have to understand when I ran Var - I was using 25mg on average and sometimes 50mg after a super hard workout. That's it.

I've ran a few low dose TE cycles and had no issues until I added just 125mg of Eq...cut the Eq, pumps were gone within a week or two.

My point 200mg's a week or less of any one thing - actually a 100mg a week of any one thing would have been enough in my opinion. You started stacking. Why?

Yes, some guys can run var and not get pumps but the majority do get them even though var looks really good on paper. Sounds like it works for you and the guys that it does work for love it, but as I said most get severe pumps in the low back or shins that keep them from continuing training/racing.

Shin splints are known to be genetically symptomatic. I believe that some guys take a steroid, and get a strength and recovery increase and start running faster and farther than they normally would - even if it's just a slight up tick and experience a problem because their body did not have time to acclimate. Ive always been horrible at running even though I enjoy it. I get shin splints every time I increase distance or speed and then they go away. No gear involved.

From my understanding most Grand Tour guys use oral Andriol in very low doses and not injectables due to the detection time. They do n't take it every day, only when they need a boost in recovery. Both Floyd and Tyler have documented this in various forms. Not trying to be a dick but you can't believe that 300mg of test fueled Floyd on his stage victory in 2006. High crit level from EPO or doping and fricken guts plus maybe a little test undeconoate and HGH. You don't get endurance or power from test... you get it from training and recovering.

I wasn't trying to say that he won because of test. I was saying that he didn't experience problems because of it. Also this water retention problem isn't so bad with a long distance endurance athlete. We sweat out tons of water, and take in lots of water. Anything 100mg-200mg a week for a competitive cyclist is not going to be an issue in the water retention department. Body builders go into the gym and sweat for an hour, with 800mg of test in them, and yes - they may have some water issues. Some of my rides can last 4-6 hours in the saddle. I'm not retaining anything.

 

[Swaglantern]

A recent study examined whether using two types of anabolic steroids improved endurance performance. Endurance athletes took either a placebo or testosterone and nandrolone (Durabolin) 12 times for a month. The doses and use of the drugs mimicked the ones used by real-world athletes. Interestingly, those who used the drugs showed no improvements over those who used the placebo.

I love studies like this because it downplays steroid use, and quite frankly I think a professional athlete should be allowed to use any drug they want if they are under the care of a doctor....but anyway I'd like to see this study -the conditions set up, the age of the athletes, what type of measurements - did they actually do any real races?? Etc..etc.. I find it hard to believe that nothing improved, and I'd like to know how they even define improvement.

 

[collinb]

I play rugby, my position is flanker. Not crazy crazy endurance, but it does take quite a bit to keep up at pace. I took EQ and TE low doses each preseason and stayed on low dose test ~ 200mg a week in season. I felt I gained alot from that, just have to work on cardio more and do more cardio. Only way to honestly get in better condition in that sense is to do it.

 

[mikennrg]

While mostly true regarding track racing - a lot of track racers move into sprinter positions for pro road racing teams - races that are 100+ miles long. Not all of them though. A lot of them also professionally road race along with track racing. So they obviously put in a lot of miles. We all know that a lot of musculature doesn't necessarily equate to strength - sometimes it does - sometimes not. If you google "track cyclists legs" or something, you will see different sizes and styles of musculature based on body type. Also - training has changed a lot. We no longer just go out and ride mile after mile. There are anaerobic/threshold workouts that just last an hour long. Strength/big gear work outs. High cadence workouts...and endurance. There are lots of studies that suggest that high intensity pyramid anaerobic workouts can be just as beneficial as long distance training at a moderate level. And all training is sport specific - there is not much proof that moving big weight in the gym will transfer to big strength on the bike. It can help, but it doesn't always. It's better to strength train ON the bike.

Increasing force production should equal better performance. If you're not seeing performance increases you're doing something wrong. Cyclists should see big benefits from deadlifts to strengthen the posterior chain and single leg exercises.

 

[triathloncoach]

Oh okay, I gotcha.

Of course I get the concept that for short bursts of speed would require a totally different kind of training than endurance, but it's surprising to hear that sprinters only 10-15 meters at a time.

I'm also wondering where the point of diminishing returns would be for the average sprinter (in cycling or running). In other words, even when only doing 10 meters at a time, cumulatively that must add up to a lot of meters overall for the week, right?

Probably not much volume. Lots of short, very intense sets. Like how a power lifter or Olympic weightlifter might train to build explosive power. Low reps, 2-5 minute rest between sets.



To the OP, I would focus on anything that helps speed your recovery time while not adding much body weight. Hard training and adequate recovery.

EPO may kill you.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

I'm interested in getting in to cycling. Cool thread. At what point do they test and what method, out of curiosity.

 

[Swaglantern]

Increasing force production should equal better performance. If you're not seeing performance increases you're doing something wrong. Cyclists should see big benefits from deadlifts to strengthen the posterior chain and single leg exercises.

Nah - I'm not doing anything wrong - I said it can help, but it isn't a parallel type of effect. I actually got serious about cycling by reading the mountain bike training bible which is the hands down best method for training that I've encountered - mtb wise. Joe Friel exposes the semi problems of weight training, and he's totally correct from my experience. I weight train every off season and there are two problems with the dead lifting, and squatting regularly idea that you are talking about. First off when I weight train regularly during the off season I'm not riding as long or as much. I'm mostly trying to just stay balanced and fit (muscle wise), so that when I am training long hours on the bike I don't have imbalances or get injured. The type of musculature is different - weight lifting is more beneficial for fast twitch muscle fibers. I race long distance...I use more slow twitch muscle fibers. It may be a different story for the track cyclist. Second- when you start your season and train long hours in the saddle - any strength that you gained dead lifting and squatting will fade away quite quickly. You cannot be at your best if you train long hours in the saddle and then lift heavy weights in the gym day in and day out. you'll fry your legs and over train. Lifting weights can be somewhat beneficial to a nominal degree - but strength is sport and activity specific. You will develop your greatest strength in cycling by doing big gear workouts on the bike - not in the gym. Running and cycling have a supposed 75% crossover but the best marathoner will not even come close to beating the best tour racer, and vice versa. You really don't even need to lift weights to race at a high level - during the race season do you think pros are hanging out in gyms dead lifting, and squatting - track racers maybe - but that isn't really the type of racing I'm talking about.

 

[dj]

Every athlete that speaks of pumps, etc..is usually a body builder that runs body building dosages of gear, and then complains about pumps regarding endurance. This is too anecdotal.


No. I belong to an endurance board, NOT a BB board, where this all discussed in depth with people who train others using PEDS and have rode as a Pro(s). 9 out of ten regret starting Var. Yes there is the one here or there that loves it but they are in the minority. Very low doses of test or none at all. Hell Conte was dosing 2 weeks on (THG) one off
You started stacking. Why?


LOL, Because I like to experiment and I had some Eq that was staring me in the face.

Shin splints are known to be genetically symptomatic.

Not shin splints - Pumps, painful PUMPS in the tibialis anterioir.

This is too anecdotal. steroids have been used for years for endurance athletes in the olympics, and cycling and this pump phenomenon has never been a deciding factor.

No again, what you are saying is anecdotal. Yes the anabolics have been used but you do not know what dosages they were taking nor do you know whether or not they had issues with the above problems. Distance guys are not doing 300mgs like your stallion reference.

Also this water retention problem isn't so bad with a long distance endurance athlete. We sweat out tons of water, and take in lots of water.

Water retention = high estrogen = terrible endurance.

Your mileage may vary though so if you found something that works for you great, I'm just not sure it should be recommended to everyone.

By the way what is your CP5 and CP20 and how did anabolics help?

 

[dj]

I'm interested in getting in to cycling. Cool thread. At what point do they test and what method, out of curiosity.

They don't test at the state level in my neck of the woods, mostly at nats and above. They will show up at weekly local informal race series if it is pretty competitive and they have some intel that some dopers are there. Maybe not for one dude but if they can pop multiple guys they will. Think Colorado, Carolina, and Cali.

I think they just do test ratio first and stims. If you test positive for an out of range ratio then you may get further testing. The higher you go the more they test EPO etc. Grand Tour level they do blood work but my guess is with the handle Simpllyhuge you won't be doing the Tour anytime soon.

Pretty easy to beat the system though. Make sure your ester is clear before the race and you can use oral T up to a day before and not get popped as long as your ratio is good. Natural is 1:1 test to epi you can go to 4:1 so there is room for some test. You can get out of competition random tested at the higher levels so you do not want a long ester in your system. With Andriol you just have to lose them for a day or two.

This is another reason Tour guys are not doing 300mg test because it would throw off their T ratio.

Micro dose EPO IV and you are clear after few days. SQ and it is longer but the test keep improving.

It always amazes me that more BB don't use EPO with all the other shit they will use. It's not that bad once you know what you are doing. LOL cyclist are deathly afraid of slin.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

I am actually not big any more, just kept the name. Thanks for all the info thou, I always was curious how they test.

 

[dj]

I am actually not big any more, just kept the name. Thanks for all the info thou, I always was curious how they test.

Your box is full bro.

 

[Swaglantern]

Every athlete that speaks of pumps, etc..is usually a body builder that runs body building dosages of gear, and then complains about pumps regarding endurance. This is too anecdotal.

No. I belong to an endurance board, NOT a BB board, where this all discussed in depth with people who train others using PEDS and have rode as a Pro(s). 9 out of ten regret starting Var. Yes there is the one here or there that loves it but they are in the minority. Very low doses of test or none at all. Hell Conte was dosing 2 weeks on (THG) one off

Fair enough -I guess I'm just the one in a million who didn't have a problem with it. Without stating what amounts they were using, how big they were, how they were training etc... - I don't see how that isn't anecdotal? They may been running 50 - 100 mg's a day. I mostly ran 25mgs.


You started stacking. Why?


LOL, Because I like to experiment and I had some Eq that was staring me in the face.

Shin splints are known to be genetically symptomatic.

Not shin splints - Pumps, painful PUMPS in the tibialis anterioir.

I guess without them conferring with a doctor I wouldn't really know what your meaning is. Body builders refer to their shin pumps usually because of running, and you are talking about cyclists doing long miles and having shin pumps. I've never known a cyclist to experience shin pumps - gear or no gear. Interesting.
This is too anecdotal. steroids have been used for years for endurance athletes in the olympics, and cycling and this pump phenomenon has never been a deciding factor.

No again, what you are saying is anecdotal. Yes the anabolics have been used but you do not know what dosages they were taking nor do you know whether or not they had issues with the above problems. Distance guys are not doing 300mgs like your stallion reference.

Naaaah - anecdotal maybe - but way less anecdotal then what you are doing. There is a known history of anabolics in the Olympics...some countries developed anabolics for this sole purpose..i.e. East Germany has conceded that their whole womens swim team in the 70's was on gear. We have quantifiable results. If your sample ratio was accurate - there is no way teams, and individuals would perform at the level they do and consistently. If every other person is seizing up with shin pumps and splints. You are just claiming that 9 out of ten guys on Var had shin pumps without stating the amounts - or whether who these people were, and if they really even exist - no offense - I'm just trying to understand this shin pump phenomena.

Also this water retention problem isn't so bad with a long distance endurance athlete. We sweat out tons of water, and take in lots of water.

Water retention = high estrogen = terrible endurance.

Your mileage may vary though so if you found something that works for you great, I'm just not sure it should be recommended to everyone.

Once again - you are just assuming that you will have water retention without talking about amounts are individual performance. I mentioned that Landis was using 250mg a week as a guess because his epi to test ratio was 14-1, and the average is 1-1 up to 4-1 on rare occasions. He may have been doing less - maybe more!

By the way what is your CP5 and CP20 and how did anabolics help?

That's a loaded, and irrelevant question without asking weight or anything else...Last test I did was when I started racing expert/pro, and I believe I was at 425w on a ramped 5m test, but once again tests are elusive, and this question is irrelevant.

 

[tomakit]

It always amazes me that more BB don't use EPO with all the other shit they will use. It's not that bad once you know what you are doing.

Crit gets pretty high from test @ 500mg/wk by itself.