Any Of You Guys Ever Worry..

[allbeef]

Skip

You maybe absolutely right and i am certainly not anti steroids, but I don't want to deny that month after month we see a RIP post of another 40 year old male or female heavy juicer that is dead. That large heart and small vessels that eddie guerrero's autopsy showed was to me classic hypertropy of heart muscle caused by AS use. Theres always other rec and pain drugs involved but it seems to me that it is AS that is the primary cuase of the enlarged heart. All speculation and nothing more.

My assumption is that everybody who juices heavy and long will need hrt at a minimum to attempt to maintain a sense of well being, higher energy levels, libido, mood. And if you have atropied your nuts ( and that does happen ) you are hoping the doctor can even figure out how to get things and keep things in a balance where you live happilly. But it is a very compilcated balancing act of hormones and medications that I don't think when we are self treating we have have the insight we need to prevent the imbalances that occur.

I had too much fun juicing to ever regret it. But there is a little more to consider when you have done it long term and you are middle age.


Allbeef

 

[RicPhoenix]

If a guy is concerned about having children perhaps they could wait until they are off cycle for some time and have fertility checks to determine when their number and strength of sperm has increased. Then have some sperm frozen. I am sure that the clinics have a service like this and the frozen sperm I guess would last many many years. So for a young guy....if you find that you are 35 and having trouble you can retrieve sperm you froze when you were say 25.

(For older guys) This would also go for guys who are competing in the masters catagories or mature aged men. The sooner you can have some sperm frozen the better. I think the newest research shows that once a man is over 40 (?) his children have a much greater chance of being born with various mental and physical defects due to errors in the dna stored in his sperm and decreased sperm numbers. So if you have put off having a family because of competing or whatever using a fertility clinic to have sperm stored might be a way to go.

 

[Skip]

You maybe absolutely right and i am certainly not anti steroids, but I don't want to deny that month after month we see a RIP post of another 40 year old male or female heavy juicer that is dead. That large heart and small vessels that eddie guerrero's autopsy showed was to me classic hypertropy of heart muscle caused by AS use. Theres always other rec and pain drugs involved but it seems to me that it is AS that is the primary cuase of the enlarged heart. All speculation and nothing more.

My assumption is that everybody who juices heavy and long will need hrt at a minimum to attempt to maintain a sense of well being, higher energy levels, libido, mood. And if you have atropied your nuts ( and that does happen ) you are hoping the doctor can even figure out how to get things and keep things in a balance where you live happilly. But it is a very compilcated balancing act of hormones and medications that I don't think when we are self treating we have have the insight we need to prevent the imbalances that occur.

I had too much fun juicing to ever regret it. But there is a little more to consider when you have done it long term and you are middle age.


Allbeef

I don't know enough about Eddie's situation to comment on it, to be honest. All I will say is that an enlarged heart is relative. Athletes have enlarged hearts and weight lifters have even larger hearts, from what I understand. I don't know how "large" his heart was. Again, though, I won't argue that steroids are safe and without consequence. I just feel there are far more variables than we pay attention too. Admittedly, on the other side of the coin it would be ignorant to not consider steroid use as a potential health hazard. I make this point because I don't want anyone to think I am blind to the potential health concerns of steroids. I am not. I just want it kept in perspective.

As to your last paragraph, I will PM you. : )

Skip

 

[xcelbeyond]

Just because someone's sperm count is low doesn't mean that it is because of steroids. It certainly COULD be but there are A LOT of guys out there that have very low sperm counts and have never touched a steroid. There are also plenty of couples that can't have children for whatever reason and the guy is not on steroids. Just because you have used steroids or are even ON steroids doesn't mean that you can't have children.

It's scary that Skip and I agree on SO MUCH

 

[phreak]

You know what? I absolutely respect that opinions are given most of the time to help someone out. I don't think anyone has an agenda to give out shitty info or inaccurate info. However, I do think we are sometimes quicker to assume that steroids are the problem to everything that ails a steroid user.

I hear a very negative tone in this thread about the potential to have kids and what your sex life will be after being on steroids for a long time. Now, I will NOT say that steroids are completely safe and without consequence but I will say that we should not always assume that what ails us is because of steroid use, either.

Just because someone's sperm count is low doesn't mean that it is because of steroids. It certainly COULD be but there are A LOT of guys out there that have very low sperm counts and have never touched a steroid. There are also plenty of couples that can't have children for whatever reason and the guy is not on steroids. Just because you have used steroids or are even ON steroids doesn't mean that you can't have children.

I can't tell you how many clients and friends over the years have conceived children either while on cycles or very shortly after cycles and even on MASSIVE cycles for LONG periods of time. I can think of one that was on for over 3 years and average dosing was a total of about 2500mg and yet conceived a child. Just because you don't hear much about it, believe me, it does happen and it happens more than you might think it does.

I also think it is not fair to assume that because someone is on for 3 or 4 or more years that when they are older they will have sexual issues or performance issues. This is purely speculation. Not saying that it can't happen BUT I have seen it happen that guys are on for long periods like this and they come off and they note no problems either physically, sexually or psychologically. Hell, some don't believe in PCT, either. From what I have seen I am not going to believe that most guys have problems coming off after long periods of time. Quite the opposite, in fact. The majority don't have problems and for those that do, they are usually not for an extended period of time.

My point is that there are many other factors that need to be taken into account before pointing the finger at steroids just as the general public does. What about the fact that alot of guys that are into using gear and bodybuilding are narcissistic, ego centric dicks? Are we to say that the gear caused this or were they like this prior to using gear? What about all of the other shit that most guys do that use gear? Alot of guys still drink quite a bit while on gear so could that cause a lower sperm count, liver problems, sexual issues later in life? What about smoking or doing rec drugs? What about not eating well and actually taking care of yourself from a nutritional standpoint? How many of the guys complaining of lower sperm counts have a nutritional plan that has been consistent and healthy? Maybe it is nutritional and not gear related?? What about stress from life or your job or whatever?? There are a TON of variables and assuming everything is steroid related is not terribly fair.

In my opinion, gear should be no more or less looked at than should stress, nutrition, bodyweight/bodyfat, cardiovascular health, lifestyle choices, etc..

Remember, I am not saying steroids are good for you. I just believe that alot of assumptions are made as to them being the problem for alot of ailments without much to back this up.

Skip

seconded. great post

 

[zephyr22]

I can tell you from a medical standpoint...

One of the biggest probs with using anabolics and heart attack are linked to two things. One is the cholesterol issue high LDL and lowerd HDL levels usually associated with anabolic use. Secondly hypertension (not all BB are affected by this). Thirdly on the issue of infertility if one is using testosterone it shuts down the gonads due too a negative feed back system thus shrinking the testicles and reducing sperm count etc...... This is medically based. Now diet etc... can definately impact sperm counts etc... However if someone has used anabolics heavily and pre use had normal sperm count. Then the culprit would be the anabolics.

 

[Skip]

One of the biggest probs with using anabolics and heart attack are linked to two things. One is the cholesterol issue high LDL and lowerd HDL levels usually associated with anabolic use. Secondly hypertension (not all BB are affected by this). Thirdly on the issue of infertility if one is using testosterone it shuts down the gonads due too a negative feed back system thus shrinking the testicles and reducing sperm count etc...... This is medically based. Now diet etc... can definately impact sperm counts etc... However if someone has used anabolics heavily and pre use had normal sperm count. Then the culprit would be the anabolics.

These are fair and very good points but I will counter (duh, like that wouldn't happen hehe):

Cholesterol issue - I have seen diet keep both LDL and HDL within normal parameters the large majority of the time with guys on for a minimum of one year. Yes, the HDL numbers are usually low end of the normal range but they are still within the normal range.

Hypertension - This is more related to bodyweight than anything else, in my opinion. Yes, a nice and agressive load of abombs on the front end of a cycle will certainly throw things out of whack but again when nutrition is where it SHOULD be, supplementation is where it should be and bodyweight/bodyfat is where it should be, blood pressure is not an issue the large majority of the time, either.

sperm count - all things considered I can't argue that anabolics decrease sperm count. HOWEVER, you can still conceive a child (and MANY do) with a lower sperm count. The guy that uses anabolics/androgenics as a form of birth control is a fool. I may have offended someone with that statement but that is not my intention. I am simply pointing out the fact that this is even less effective than the old tried and true "pull out" method. You go on gear and keep blasting your girls gash with your man liquid and see how long you go before she misses a period. It might not be too long. : )

Again, these are just my opinions based on my experiences over the years.

Skip

 

[zephyr22]

Not arguing the facts at all...

As you are correct many things in BB lifestyle are unhealthy as diet etc... can change BP dramatically. Also the guy using anabolics for birth control dont think you wont someone pregnant because remember it only takes on sperm to fertilize one egg so chances are your still producing sperm just at a much lower rate. Unless however you have been on a nonstop cycle for 5 years with no pct used throughout. Good points Skip.