Are dopamine agonists safe?

[fstr03svtcobra]

I made a post in the npp thread that's popular right now, but after thinking about it, this is something that is probably better addressed in a new thread.

Ok so we all use steroids here, but some are more harmful on the body than others and I am very cautious. IMO progesterone based drugs are very dirty. Tren is full of sides, deca/npp was shown to be 11x harder on blood vessels mg per mg than test (study here ---> Nandrolone eleven times more damaging to blood vessels than testosterone), and in general progesterone drugs for the lack of a better term seem to be behind a lot of heart problems that bodybuilders encounter. You (or maybe it's just me) rarely here of someone encountering heart problems after a test based or dht based drug was run.

But given all that I don't think that I can accomplish my goals in bodybuilding without using progesterone's at some point. So I want to try npp. My main concern is with having to run dopamine agonists at npp's effective dose. I am hoping since it is a new pathway for me I won't have to run high doses and can start with 350 or 400 but if not I may need 500+. I am really scared of DA's because of their effects on down-regulating dopamine in the brain. This is not something that should be taken lightly. Lipids, liver enzymes, bp, ect... can recover, but the reward center of my brain and capacity to feel emotions is not something I want to mess with. AI's directly stop estrogen, but DA's don't stop prolactin - they just mask it by adding more dopamine. So my question is does anyone run say 1000mg test/week and 500+ mg npp/week without prami/caber? Back in the day, Arnold ect. had to since DA's weren't available, but they didn't run higher doses of test either and stuck to mainly primo/dbol. I really hope that a DA can be just kept "on hand" in case of gyno and that suppressing estrogen with letro/aromasin (which in theory should stop prolactin from forming right?) will be a viable option to run npp. What do you guys think?

 

[tr]

Dopamine agonists = caber and prami? (I'm not very well eduacated here)

Using NPP and Tren almost non stop for 2 years (blast with 200-600mgs cruise with 100mgs) and never used caber or prami in my life (used bromocriptin very very short amount of time, droped cause made me feel like sh1t). If they cause long term damage I'd better suffer 8-12 weeks when blasting on npp or tren than get this problem for my whole life.

As you said - back in the days there were no caber or prami, none was using these so why the guys need them now? Use as much as it is needed to build a muscle not more than that and you don't have or have very little prl sides. The more drugs you take the more damage is done to your body at the end of the day.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Cool thanks for the lengthy reply. What do you use to counteract prolactin sides? If you use an ai, which one and what's your typical protocol?

I also think you brought up another interesting side topic by mentioning your use of tren and npp. Highly androgenic drugs like tren, masteron, ect really up-regulate dopamine although not near the extent of DA's (caber/prami). What prompted my original post and got me thinking about this was that my friend used 1 gram of test and 700 mg masteron for a year and a half straight. He always had in-range bloods and used a lot of orals as well, but the test and mast were the only things that remained constant. He went off recently to get his trt prescription renewed and now he feels terrible - depressed, no capacity for any emotion especially love, mild anxiety, poor sleep, foggy thinking, ect. All of these match up perfectly with symptoms of burnt out dopamine receptors. Of course we cannot be sure that this is what is going on, but it was enough to make me wonder if this sort of thing is possible with mild use of prami/caber for a couple months for bbing purposes. Additionally, it made me worry about running high doses of test for a long time. IMO, test, primo, and mast could be run at 1g, 1g, and 500mg for years without going out of range on blood panels if that was the only thing you ran and ran them properly (ie managing estrogen carefully) and otherwise made healthy life choices. But what doesn't show up on any blood test is dopamine receptor regulation. Even injectable trt would cause this phenomenon if in fact androgens really do down-regulate dopamine receptors to a great extent. This doesn't happen with natural test in the body because it is pulsed. The body produces higher test levels in the morning and then they are low at night. This could serve as a natural dopamine preserving mechanism. The only synthetic option that would preserve this phenomenon would be the creme (which does elicit higher dht though) or suspension/tne.

Maybe I'm crazy and over-thinking all this guys, but I just don't want to end up burnt out and unhappy years down the road. Any other opinions?

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Merry Christmas btw!

 

[Ehren]

Your info on DA's isn't exactly right. DA's DO stop prolactin, they don't mask it. And they re-sensitize receptors over used by Androgens or shut down by Progestins.

That DA's dont mask, is shown by the fact that DA's stop people from lactating. If they didn't, you'd just end up with a very optimistic view (high Dopamine) of your worsening gyno (high prolactin, if it were just masked). So, no need to worry on that front. DA's do work to lower PRL. And they re-hab Dopamine receptors when they've been over worked or shut down from Androgens or Progestins, respectively.

More dopamine = less prolactin output. Progestins downregulate D output and let PRL rise.

Look up every post by Macro here and read them. Guy was the man on Prami and Dopa agonists.

You can always use a few grams of Pantothenic acid per day to lower PRL too. Also clears up bad skin better than anything I've ever seen, with no sides but some dryness. It works, I've done it with success.

Easiest way to get round it without messing with Dopamine Agonists is to use an AI to lower Estrogen. Low/Normal Estrogen is a good idea anyway.

ESTROGEN has always been my biggest bitch. Lower it and all's well. Let it rise and things get dark, fast.

I've used DA's (sparingly) for years with good results. During cycles of Progestins or after cycles of Androgens. .125mg of Prami ED or EOD until I feel right. Usually a week or two post cycle. Or .125 EOD off and on during a Tren cycle. Never needed it with NPP. I feel great and in a great mood on NPP/Deca.

Gyno cant grow without either a) high Estrogen or b) Very sensitive estrogen receptors + high prolactin (which shouldn't be your issue)

All androgens do a number on Dopamine receptors/output. What's amazing is that your friend didn't burn out sooner in that cycle. His current state is a result of way more than Dopamine receptor burnout. Low Androgens, high Estrogen (ratio-wise) for one, just a guess, and every pathway behind the end hormone needing to be backfilled. DHEA, Pregnenolone, Thyroid, the works.

As to the other sides of Progestins, yes they are damaging, as is all of what we do here if done long enough. Enlarged hearts are a result every athlete will be subjected to. High BP, Kidney stress, liver stress and lipid abnormalities.

...However we need to do all we can to limit the risks, so that we can continue to do bad shit to ourselves, for longer. And there are many things we can do. Do some research on these to start.

Enlarged hearts/Kidney stress/Blood vessels: Curumin
Kidneys and BP (kidney stress is often from high BP): Low dosed PDE5's to keep BP lower and Hawthorn Berry as well. Red yeast rice as a last resort (for me..too close to a statin for my liking)
Liver: Silymarin, of course. And niacin.
Aspirin as an anti-coagulant (helping prevent blood clots)
Blood draws to lower Hematocrit resulting from AAS, against blood clots.
Melanotan or PT141 without carbs in the morning to help Thyroid output (burns fat faster too with fasted cardio)
GHRP6 or 2 + CJC w/o DAC for GH output. (The last one, I just like. Feel healthier and like my systems just work better).

Point is, it's a risk, beyond Dopamine issues. But all are more or less manageable. As you know, it's not as easy as just pinning and lifting. And I'm afraid despite all we do, if done long enough, high enough, we will bear the price in some form.

 

[tr]

Cool thanks for the lengthy reply. What do you use to counteract prolactin sides? If you use an ai, which one and what's your typical protocol?

I also think you brought up another interesting side topic by mentioning your use of tren and npp. Highly androgenic drugs like tren, masteron, ect really up-regulate dopamine although not near the extent of DA's (caber/prami). What prompted my original post and got me thinking about this was that my friend used 1 gram of test and 700 mg masteron for a year and a half straight. He always had in-range bloods and used a lot of orals as well, but the test and mast were the only things that remained constant. He went off recently to get his trt prescription renewed and now he feels terrible - depressed, no capacity for any emotion especially love, mild anxiety, poor sleep, foggy thinking, ect. All of these match up perfectly with symptoms of burnt out dopamine receptors. Of course we cannot be sure that this is what is going on, but it was enough to make me wonder if this sort of thing is possible with mild use of prami/caber for a couple months for bbing purposes. Additionally, it made me worry about running high doses of test for a long time. IMO, test, primo, and mast could be run at 1g, 1g, and 500mg for years without going out of range on blood panels if that was the only thing you ran and ran them properly (ie managing estrogen carefully) and otherwise made healthy life choices. But what doesn't show up on any blood test is dopamine receptor regulation. Even injectable trt would cause this phenomenon if in fact androgens really do down-regulate dopamine receptors to a great extent. This doesn't happen with natural test in the body because it is pulsed. The body produces higher test levels in the morning and then they are low at night. This could serve as a natural dopamine preserving mechanism. The only synthetic option that would preserve this phenomenon would be the creme (which does elicit higher dht t5hough) or suspension/tne.

Maybe I'm crazy and over-thinking all this guys, but I just don't want to end up burnt out and unhappy years down the road. Any other opinions?

I don't use anything for PRL. Tried bormo but felt like crap on it so dropped it, other than no other compounds for PRL sides, but again my dosages are very mild even when blasting tren usually 200-300mg/week (did 700mg once for 2 weeks), and npp is 300-400mg, used masteron a year a go but never went above 300mg, haven't used deca in years, did drol cycles here and there again very moderate dosage - 25mg/day. So the same dosage as the most guys were donsing it 20-30 years ago with no need for prami/caber as you mentioned.

As for anti estros, usually arimidex. When blasting with 750-1250mg test - 1mg eod, when cruising on 100-150mg test the most would be .25mg twice a week, but usually I don't need or forget to take it when cruising lol

I do come off 100/100 test or npp/tren once or twice a year to for a 8-12 weeks and do only 50mg test eod subq and actually I feel a lot better, actually I love being just on trt test because emotionally I'm total different person when I'm off/trt and when I'm on cycle I'm always irritable, paranoid, anxious, just lacking to that well being feeling overall while in the past when I was on and off cycling had the opposite effect.

 

[tr]

Your info on DA's isn't exactly right. DA's DO stop prolactin, they don't mask it. And they re-sensitize receptors over used by Androgens or shut down by Progestins.

That DA's dont mask, is shown by the fact that DA's stop people from lactating. If they didn't, you'd just end up with a very optimistic view (high Dopamine) of your worsening gyno (high prolactin, if it were just masked). So, no need to worry on that front. DA's do work to lower PRL. And they re-hab Dopamine receptors when they've been over worked or shut down from Androgens or Progestins, respectively.

More dopamine = less prolactin output. Progestins downregulate D output and let PRL rise.

Look up every post by Macro here and read them. Guy was the man on Prami and Dopa agonists.

You can always use a few grams of Pantothenic acid per day to lower PRL too. Also clears up bad skin better than anything I've ever seen, with no sides but some dryness. It works, I've done it with success.

Easiest way to get round it without messing with Dopamine Agonists is to use an AI to lower Estrogen. Low/Normal Estrogen is a good idea anyway.

ESTROGEN has always been my biggest bitch. Lower it and all's well. Let it rise and things get dark, fast.

I've used DA's (sparingly) for years with good results. During cycles of Progestins or after cycles of Androgens. .125mg of Prami ED or EOD until I feel right. Usually a week or two post cycle. Or .125 EOD off and on during a Tren cycle. Never needed it with NPP. I feel great and in a great mood on NPP/Deca.

Gyno cant grow without either a) high Estrogen or b) Very sensitive estrogen receptors + high prolactin (which shouldn't be your issue)

All androgens do a number on Dopamine receptors/output. What's amazing is that your friend didn't burn out sooner in that cycle. His current state is a result of way more than Dopamine receptor burnout. Low Androgens, high Estrogen (ratio-wise) for one, just a guess, and every pathway behind the end hormone needing to be backfilled. DHEA, Pregnenolone, Thyroid, the works.

As to the other sides of Progestins, yes they are damaging, as is all of what we do here if done long enough. Enlarged hearts are a result every athlete will be subjected to. High BP, Kidney stress, liver stress and lipid abnormalities.

...However we need to do all we can to limit the risks, so that we can continue to do bad shit to ourselves, for longer. And there are many things we can do. Do some research on these to start.

Enlarged hearts/Kidney stress/Blood vessels: Curumin
Kidneys and BP (kidney stress is often from high BP): Low dosed PDE5's to keep BP lower and Hawthorn Berry as well. Red yeast rice as a last resort (for me..too close to a statin for my liking)
Liver: Silymarin, of course. And niacin.
Aspirin as an anti-coagulant (helping prevent blood clots)
Blood draws to lower Hematocrit resulting from AAS, against blood clots.
Melanotan or PT141 without carbs in the morning to help Thyroid output (burns fat faster too with fasted cardio)
GHRP6 or 2 + CJC w/o DAC for GH output. (The last one, I just like. Feel healthier and like my systems just work better).

Point is, it's a risk, beyond Dopamine issues. But all are more or less manageable. As you know, it's not as easy as just pinning and lifting. And I'm afraid despite all we do, if done long enough, high enough, we will bear the price in some form.

Ehren, what about highly androgens and dopamine up-regulation? Is that temporary or it can cause long term damage if andros is used too long?

 

[matt1164]

Bump this

Merry christmas

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Ehren, what about highly androgens and dopamine up-regulation? Is that temporary or it can cause long term damage if andros is used too long?

THIS!

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Ehren,

After researching it, you're right about DA's stopping prolactin (although I wouldn't choose the word stop). According to my research, dopamine is an inhibitor for prolactin so I'm not sure if it takes direct activity like an ai, but nevertheless DA's don't just mask the problem like I thought. I'm sorry for posting incorrect information.

On your comment about progestins down-regulating dopamine, perhaps in terms of long term brain health this is healthy. It could serve as a way of balancing long term androgen usage (trt dosage or bber dosage).

In regards to estrogen, it's my main enemy too. I wish their was a finger prick estrogen meter just like glucose lol. Wouldn't that make things so much easier...

That's awesome that you run npp/deca without using a DA. How high have you gone on the dosages? Also what estrogen lowering sceme do you use during npp/deca?

I agree with you about my friend. I told him that I think he might also have adrenal fatigue from having little to no cortisol for such a long time. As bodybuilders, we fix most of the obvious pathways gear takes such as estrogen, lipids, ect with ancillaries, but we often overlook others. For a car analogy, he basically ran a huge blower on a non-built motor. He made a lot of power, but a lot of other parts of the motor were damaged.

I have never seen an enlarged heart from running test or dht based drugs only. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough enlarged heart cases, but this is just my experience.

Thank you for your list of ancillaries. That is a great list of products.

I am glad that there are other guys who care enough to consider the effects of these drugs on their bodies. It seems that most people are one end of the spectrum or the other. You are either brainwashed and think steroids will make you slaughter your family and make your penis fall off or think that you are enlightened about steroids and as long as you cover your bases everything will be completely fine. Thanks for having a balanced perspective!

Ehren and everyone else ----> Lastly, I read that dopamine plays a huge role in cognition. Dopamine in the frontal lobe is responsible for getting information to other parts of the brain. What absolutely SCARES me to DEATH is that decreased dopamine in the frontal lobe can cause a decline in performance in areas like critical thinking and memory. What do you guys think? Are we doing permanent brain damage by running gear long term? What are safe measures to keep dopamine regulated? I think that even if you never come off, this could be accomplished by running tne or suspension in the am once a day so that it would simulate the natural pattern of test. Ironically, it's starting to look like bottoming out test levels is actually very important to maintaining brain health. Other opinions?

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

tr,

Can you explain your protocol in more detail for your 8-12 week off periods?

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

So one more update on my friend (for those who didn't read: my friend ran 1g test and 700 mast week for 1.5 yrs and how is back on trt dose. His dopamine receptors are completely shot.). He says that the only time he feels good is within the active hours of his trt creme and then he feels absolutely awful after. How long do you think till his brain readjusts? How long till he feels normal again?

 

[robertfhub]

So one more update on my friend (for those who didn't read: my friend ran 1g test and 700 mast week for 1.5 yrs and how is back on trt dose. His dopamine receptors are completely shot.). He says that the only time he feels good is within the active hours of his trt creme and then he feels absolutely awful after. How long do you think till his brain readjusts? How long till he feels normal again?

I can't take caber. Have you tried mucuna pruriens. It is l dopa. It works for me....

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

I can't take caber. Have you tried mucuna pruriens. It is l dopa. It works for me....

I'll ask him about that. Haha unlike most "friend" posts on boards this is actually my friend.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

So the more I am researching this dopamine thing, I am really now concerned with running high dosages in general for long periods of time. Let's say you blasted and cruised with 400mg test and 1.5 grams for example and did this for 4 years. What would happen after those 4 years if you went on a trt dosage of 100mg or an equivalent creme dosage? Would you feel terrible?

I think asking whether you would feel terrible would be dependent on a bunch of things. Foremost, what drugs you ran. If you ran mast as part of you cruise and blast like my friend then obviously dht would up-regulate dopamine so much that coming down would make you feel awful. However, if you just ran test as your cruise or something not androgenic, would you feel ok and not have burnt out dopamine receptors at trt dosages? Has anyone done this?

There are tons of huge guys on this board. Surely somebody has blasted with lots of test for years and then come off. To those guys, how did you feel at the low dose after all those years of high doses? In scientific terms, I guess this boils down to how effectively test as a drug increases dopamine in the body which then down-regulates dopamine's receptors. Does anyone know the answer to this question either?

Man, these are scary questions. Enough to make a cautious bber quit gear for good if the news is bad.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

So one more update on my friend (for those who didn't read: my friend ran 1g test and 700 mast week for 1.5 yrs and how is back on trt dose. His dopamine receptors are completely shot.). He says that the only time he feels good is within the active hours of his trt creme and then he feels absolutely awful after. How long do you think till his brain readjusts? How long till he feels normal again?

Did your friend continue to make gains with the same dose for the whole 1.5 years or did he stop making gains a couple months in but was too scared to come off in fear of losing the gains or something?

How well is he maintaining his gains now that he is just on TRT?

 

[robertfhub]

I've been cycling for a good 20 years and coming off ALWAYS sucks no matter what pct I've done. Now I just stay on for good at low dosages. Better for my mental and physical health.
No way around it.....

 

[LK3]

So the more I am researching this dopamine thing, I am really now concerned with running high dosages in general for long periods of time. Let's say you blasted and cruised with 400mg test and 1.5 grams for example and did this for 4 years. What would happen after those 4 years if you went on a trt dosage of 100mg or an equivalent creme dosage? Would you feel terrible?

I think asking whether you would feel terrible would be dependent on a bunch of things. Foremost, what drugs you ran. If you ran mast as part of you cruise and blast like my friend then obviously dht would up-regulate dopamine so much that coming down would make you feel awful. However, if you just ran test as your cruise or something not androgenic, would you feel ok and not have burnt out dopamine receptors at trt dosages? Has anyone done this?

There are tons of huge guys on this board. Surely somebody has blasted with lots of test for years and then come off. To those guys, how did you feel at the low dose after all those years of high doses? In scientific terms, I guess this boils down to how effectively test as a drug increases dopamine in the body which then down-regulates dopamine's receptors. Does anyone know the answer to this question either?

Man, these are scary questions. Enough to make a cautious bber quit gear for good if the news is bad.

that last big paragraph made me chuckle...

i like your diligence ill say that!

i will preface all of what im going to say by noting that prior to doing any aas my reward pathways were most certinly fucked at best. i have never felt right mentally and am just kind of "differnent" through my life i have had all kinds of issues and have been diagnosed with several personality dissorders, i do not agree with much of modern medicine and psychiatry and feel that many mroe variable need to be acounted for when considering the human animal as an ogranism.

so there is way more too all of this then what we generally consider.

you are gona feel way different on 2g of test then 200mg no way around that but you are gona look different too and probobly have a different life style.

i used to use very high doses, i now try and stay much lower.

honestly im amazed at how good i feel on 400mg of t. i think i feel better on that then on more then a g.

but the way i feel has to do with mroe then just dopamine. also if one were running high doses for years and came off they probobly wouldnt just come off, you would strech that out for as long as possible and come down to that hrt dose after a long time.

that is if you come off based on your choices... lol! i have come off abruptly several times, both after being on for years and for just a short time, i have done it with no pct... it sucks, you do feel shitty but you remember that its because of the drugs and whats going on wiht your body and you do the best you can with what is available.

based on how i react to the drugs that i use and my personal suppliment needs/goals i like using da agonists. i do not like the side effects asociated with the rx options that we have available. i have had rx hrt and used ana and caber as part of it. right now i use some naturally occuring compound that works very well, though i will freely admit it is an experimental compound and i have no way of knowing possible long term consiquences.

i will also point out that there is quite a large group of people that have for centuries used naturally occuring da agonists for all kinds of things and show none of the problems that your are worried about. indigenous people in andean regieons of south america basically live off the coca plant, coca leaf and flour derived from it are part of there culture and diet.

there are all kinds of substances and behaviors that influence dopamine, love, sex, fear. you could bombard yourself through lifestyle or diet with dopamine stimulating things. there is just way mroe to this then drugs and no way to give you a definitive answer. you just need to make your best gueses and hope it works out.

i think by asking these questions your on the right track, just remember to look at the big picture sometiems. i wish there was a more chemical and concrete answer but unfortunitly i dont even think that concept is valid.

i just looked back on some thing about yoru friend... i think he is al ittle loopy, as in exajurating, thats a mental thing he is doing to himself. the idea behind trt is reaching a stable blood level. i doubt he is having peaks and vallies to the degree of him feeling better or worse like that. i can think of 100 people that that blasted themselfs for years with gear blow and hookers who got there act together and are just fine with hrt and a normal life. lol!

 

[tr]

tr,

Can you explain your protocol in more detail for your 8-12 week off periods?

I blast, cruise with test/andro and cruise just with test for 8-12 weeks each cycle
example - blast:1000mg test,500mg npp for 8-12 weeks, then cruise with 100mg test and 100mg npp for another 8-12 weeks, then cruise just on test 175mg week (50mg EOD) for 8-12 weeks, then blast again

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I've been cycling for a good 20 years and coming off ALWAYS sucks no matter what pct I've done. Now I just stay on for good at low dosages. Better for my mental and physical health.
No way around it.....

Regarding physical health, do you just mean from the lack of hormonal fluctuations or what? Once of the reasons I have avoided blasting and cruising is because of health concerns but I could see it being fine IF time cruising is equivalent to how much time you would have been off anyway. But it seems very few who switch to blasting and cruising do this, most seem to be blasting the majority of the time.