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Are dopamine agonists safe?

Regarding physical health, do you just mean from the lack of hormonal fluctuations or what? Once of the reasons I have avoided blasting and cruising is because of health concerns but I could see it being fine IF time cruising is equivalent to how much time you would have been off anyway. But it seems very few who switch to blasting and cruising do this, most seem to be blasting the majority of the time.

I really meant that I just feel shitty and in poorer health when off. And I mean completely off. I usually do 6 months on a trt doses of test and for a few months I will add something in and increase test but its baby doses compared to what guys take now. I'm 46 and have no major health issues. I need to watch my cholesterol and blood pressure but I can correct that with diet and cardio. My job is very physical and at this point in my life if I keep the doses just right I will maintain my health. For instance I am currently using endosyn cutabolic .5 CC every other day and I also add in 37.5 home brew tren with that. Great results, I feel great and NO noticeable side effects. I may use some a bombs in February to cut but I really want to see how it goes through January. I'm in no rush.
I can see the temptation to stay on a blast. It feels good. ;)
 
Ehren, what about highly androgens and dopamine up-regulation? Is that temporary or it can cause long term damage if andros is used too long?

IMO, the bigger problem is Adrenal burnout. I think AAS and training stress do a way bigger number on Adrenals than Dopamine output by itself. This one dogs me cycle to cycle, so DHEA, peps periodically, Vitamins, Iodine and etc are necessary. Between AAS, training hard and work, adrenal burnout accounts for way more occasional darkness in me and buddies than what can be directly called Dopamine problems.

Anyhow, to my knowledge the increased Dopa output is "balanced" by receptors desensitizing. In a nutshell, I don't believe it's permanent. But dose and length play a part in how long you're messed up after...as well as genetics and countermeasures (prami/caber).

The increased output happens quickly and stabilizes quickly. Your body gets used to the dose of, lets say, Masteron, and the sunny mood you had the first week or two gets normal. It desensitizes you to about "normal" dopa, serotonin and adrenal output. Increasing the dose may get the feeling back for a while, but it too will stabilize.

Problem comes when you take away the increased output (by coming off or switching AAS) and return to normal levels or below, because receptors are smashed, you'd feel like shit for a while.

Same feeling as coming off a rec drug weekend (when I was far younger and dumber). Instant remourse, haha.

After Dopamine levels return to normal or below, receptors should upregulate and regain sensitivity. Prami or caber help make this process shorter.

JME, Using a little Prami has been a staple for me coming off. I shrink a little, but at least I'm not depressed about it. LOL.

This is all great example of why I think it's a good idea to use the LEAST possible/necessary amount/time of some ancillaries. Anytime we crush output for a long time, sensitivity rises to that thing we crushed. If we increase something, sensitivity lowers. Take Estrogen for example. Using an AI (without AAS) for a long time to raise Test...which works...and guess what. Let the Estrogen level comeback to even "normal" and watch one's self bloat or get depressed or get gyno with a normal E2 level.

Keeping things within range is good. Hard to do since we all like our Test level at 3000+ and Estrogen at 42. LOL.
 
Did your friend continue to make gains with the same dose for the whole 1.5 years or did he stop making gains a couple months in but was too scared to come off in fear of losing the gains or something?

How well is he maintaining his gains now that he is just on TRT?

He made little gains on the test/mast and picked up most of gains from orals. It is important to note that he has a insane physique though. During that time period he never got over 5.5% bf. He loves the classic look to bodybuilding (as do I) and won't take gh or slin. He is about 205 at 5% at 5'7". One more thing that's interesting is he has never used yren and won't bc the classic bodybuilders didn't have access to it either.

As for retaining gains, there is no way he will keep his physique at trt doses.
 
that last big paragraph made me chuckle...

i like your diligence ill say that!

i will preface all of what im going to say by noting that prior to doing any aas my reward pathways were most certinly fucked at best. i have never felt right mentally and am just kind of "differnent" through my life i have had all kinds of issues and have been diagnosed with several personality dissorders, i do not agree with much of modern medicine and psychiatry and feel that many mroe variable need to be acounted for when considering the human animal as an ogranism.

so there is way more too all of this then what we generally consider.

you are gona feel way different on 2g of test then 200mg no way around that but you are gona look different too and probobly have a different life style.

i used to use very high doses, i now try and stay much lower.

honestly im amazed at how good i feel on 400mg of t. i think i feel better on that then on more then a g.

but the way i feel has to do with mroe then just dopamine. also if one were running high doses for years and came off they probobly wouldnt just come off, you would strech that out for as long as possible and come down to that hrt dose after a long time.

that is if you come off based on your choices... lol! i have come off abruptly several times, both after being on for years and for just a short time, i have done it with no pct... it sucks, you do feel shitty but you remember that its because of the drugs and whats going on wiht your body and you do the best you can with what is available.

based on how i react to the drugs that i use and my personal suppliment needs/goals i like using da agonists. i do not like the side effects asociated with the rx options that we have available. i have had rx hrt and used ana and caber as part of it. right now i use some naturally occuring compound that works very well, though i will freely admit it is an experimental compound and i have no way of knowing possible long term consiquences.

i will also point out that there is quite a large group of people that have for centuries used naturally occuring da agonists for all kinds of things and show none of the problems that your are worried about. indigenous people in andean regieons of south america basically live off the coca plant, coca leaf and flour derived from it are part of there culture and diet.

there are all kinds of substances and behaviors that influence dopamine, love, sex, fear. you could bombard yourself through lifestyle or diet with dopamine stimulating things. there is just way mroe to this then drugs and no way to give you a definitive answer. you just need to make your best gueses and hope it works out.

i think by asking these questions your on the right track, just remember to look at the big picture sometiems. i wish there was a more chemical and concrete answer but unfortunitly i dont even think that concept is valid.

i just looked back on some thing about yoru friend... i think he is al ittle loopy, as in exajurating, thats a mental thing he is doing to himself. the idea behind trt is reaching a stable blood level. i doubt he is having peaks and vallies to the degree of him feeling better or worse like that. i can think of 100 people that that blasted themselfs for years with gear blow and hookers who got there act together and are just fine with hrt and a normal life. lol!

Thanks for your lengthy reply. I agree that my friend might be "doing it" to himself, however, I think running the masteron that long did do a number on his receptors and his abrupt change from 1700 mg gear per week to 100 mg per week probably did make him feel horrible.

And on your paragraph about factors that influence dopamine, I think that you hit the nail right on the head. As aas users, a lot of times if we have any side effect the first place we look is our gear for the solution, when often times, the effect had nothing to do with gear in the first place.

So is our general consensus so far that receptors are pretty resilient and as long as you use aas responsibly (ie not using mast year round lol and tapering gear or coming off/low dose periodically), receptor down-regulation and the "adjustment period" is just a minor inconvenience that will be a short and temporary process?
 
honestly i feel the entire receptor idea is an exageration when talking about aas. i just dont think that someone is gone feel it that much. again i can think of people who slam there receptors with much stronger dopamine agents for quite a while and they rebound pretty quickly. though ultmatley it is individual.

that said if it were up to him he probobly should have come off much different. regardless of how he come of if he hit pct hard with the right drugs it shouldnt have been all that bad.

clomid does a real number on most people mentally but you plan accordingly, dont make any major decisions or life changes while on it and just remember you are gona be "off" mentally for the time you use it.

if you come off right you arent gona feel that bad and 100 or 200mg a week isnt off anyway. so you will feel just fine and be able to function just fine.

i think in general one can assume hormones fuck with moods, be careful and as responsible as possible andd you will be fine.

the other thing is that you are missing one thing about cells, saturation and there environment. cells change, they mutate based on the chemistry of there environment, if you change your chemical environment long enough your ceels will mutate, then that mutation mutates and the number/types of receptors changes to suite the environment. for better or worse one cant really say intil it is too late, ie you are suffering from something unplanned. by staying on drugs that fuck with the chemical environment you are unltimatel changeing your cells. as i said before this is not limited to drugs, one can create an altered chemical enviroment through moods adn actions. for example, fighting and arguing, these behaviors induce dopamine responce, thus one could say are potentially addictive and certinly habbit forming and self reenforcing. so even with simple behavior and thought process you could do the same thing...

the human body is a pretty cool thing;)
 
He made little gains on the test/mast and picked up most of gains from orals. It is important to note that he has a insane physique though. During that time period he never got over 5.5% bf. He loves the classic look to bodybuilding (as do I) and won't take gh or slin. He is about 205 at 5% at 5'7". One more thing that's interesting is he has never used yren and won't bc the classic bodybuilders didn't have access to it either.

As for retaining gains, there is no way he will keep his physique at trt doses.

Little gains from 1700mg per week of combined test + mast? That seems odd. I mean I could definitely see great gains followed by little gains due to just being on too long and the body not wanting to grow anymore from that dose, but little gains overall from it sounds off.

Would be interesting to see how much of his muscle he does keep on trt doses.
 
Little gains from 1700mg per week of combined test + mast? That seems odd. I mean I could definitely see great gains followed by little gains due to just being on too long and the body not wanting to grow anymore from that dose, but little gains overall from it sounds off.

Would be interesting to see how much of his muscle he does keep on trt doses.

At 5'7" 205 almost-stage condition, that is pretty much the ceiling with just gear IMO. Think about the classic bodybuilders. Zane was 5'9"and 195-200 on stage, Arnold was 230 on stage at 6'1"(so if you back that out with 7 lbs per inch thats around 195), one of my personal favorites Jusup Wilkosz was 6'1" at 220. Those guys were juiced to the gills, but didn't have synthetic gh and didn't use slin. So my friend could dry out and be 190-195 at 5'7" on stage. Trust me if you saw him in person, you would understand why 1g test doesn't do that much for him. Masteron on paper is a little anabolic, but not near that of test which for me and especially my friend really doesn't do all that much. My first experience with test on my first cycle wasn't even that awesome although I was big before I started gear and close to my potential. However, my first experience with an oral, dbol, was amazing - 17 lbs in 7 weeks with test underneath. Orals have always been my source of mass and that is why I want to try NPP because orals make you feel so bad and are hard on the body. My friend used the masteron to enhance his test, have more energy in the gym, cns strength, and allow him to use less ai and handle higher doses of orals. However, in hindsight this was a bad idea because it was way too much dht.
 
honestly i feel the entire receptor idea is an exageration when talking about aas. i just dont think that someone is gone feel it that much. again i can think of people who slam there receptors with much stronger dopamine agents for quite a while and they rebound pretty quickly. though ultmatley it is individual.

that said if it were up to him he probobly should have come off much different. regardless of how he come of if he hit pct hard with the right drugs it shouldnt have been all that bad.

clomid does a real number on most people mentally but you plan accordingly, dont make any major decisions or life changes while on it and just remember you are gona be "off" mentally for the time you use it.

if you come off right you arent gona feel that bad and 100 or 200mg a week isnt off anyway. so you will feel just fine and be able to function just fine.

i think in general one can assume hormones fuck with moods, be careful and as responsible as possible andd you will be fine.

the other thing is that you are missing one thing about cells, saturation and there environment. cells change, they mutate based on the chemistry of there environment, if you change your chemical environment long enough your ceels will mutate, then that mutation mutates and the number/types of receptors changes to suite the environment. for better or worse one cant really say intil it is too late, ie you are suffering from something unplanned. by staying on drugs that fuck with the chemical environment you are unltimatel changeing your cells. as i said before this is not limited to drugs, one can create an altered chemical enviroment through moods adn actions. for example, fighting and arguing, these behaviors induce dopamine responce, thus one could say are potentially addictive and certinly habbit forming and self reenforcing. so even with simple behavior and thought process you could do the same thing...

the human body is a pretty cool thing;)

6th paragraph is awesome - very good point!
 
At 5'7" 205 almost-stage condition, that is pretty much the ceiling with just gear IMO. Think about the classic bodybuilders. Zane was 5'9"and 195-200 on stage, Arnold was 230 on stage at 6'1"(so if you back that out with 7 lbs per inch thats around 195), one of my personal favorites Jusup Wilkosz was 6'1" at 220. Those guys were juiced to the gills, but didn't have synthetic gh and didn't use slin. So my friend could dry out and be 190-195 at 5'7" on stage. Trust me if you saw him in person, you would understand why 1g test doesn't do that much for him. Masteron on paper is a little anabolic, but not near that of test which for me and especially my friend really doesn't do all that much. My first experience with test on my first cycle wasn't even that awesome although I was big before I started gear and close to my potential. However, my first experience with an oral, dbol, was amazing - 17 lbs in 7 weeks with test underneath. Orals have always been my source of mass and that is why I want to try NPP because orals make you feel so bad and are hard on the body. My friend used the masteron to enhance his test, have more energy in the gym, cns strength, and allow him to use less ai and handle higher doses of orals. However, in hindsight this was a bad idea because it was way too much dht.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if he was about maxed out with that dose given his size, I was more just saying that it's odd he didn't get much from it even at the start...but I don't know what his stats were to begin with.

I have only gone as high as 300-500 test but I too notice far better results from orals (OTC superdrol products) than test. Never tried mast.
 
Well I wouldn't be surprised if he was about maxed out with that dose given his size, I was more just saying that it's odd he didn't get much from it even at the start...but I don't know what his stats were to begin with.

I have only gone as high as 300-500 test but I too notice far better results from orals (OTC superdrol products) than test. Never tried mast.

Yes! Exactly man. Superdrol, havoc ect. are so much stronger mg per mg than test. I have never tried superdrol (although plan to try it soon), but I have used havoc and loved it. It is like a mix between var and dbol - just a little wet. I make more gains from 60mg havoc ed than I do with 2 grams of test (before someone says something, yes it's real test - have bloods to prove it). Superdrol is probably the most anabolic drug on the planet other than methyl tren, m1t, or other exotic and super toxic stuff I'm forgetting about. IMO and most other bodybuilders opinions, no injectable is comparable to an appropriately dosed oral with the exception of tren and perhaps npp/deca. So yeah, in your case after running superdrol, one of the most anabolic products ever created, 300-500 mg of test a week is amateur hour.
 
I doubt your friend has a dopamine issue.
It sounds to me like adrenal fatigue. I have had it severely at one point and had to take meds to lower cortisol. I was beaten down to the ground yet still couldn't fall asleep if my life depended on it. I would have lost my mind if it weren't for the medication I was prescribed.
It took me a really long time to recover, probably about 6 months.
I was working 18-22 hours a day, 7 days a week, still training, and was stressed out of my mind. I had to dramatically change my lifestyle in order to recover, as well as take the Remeron my doc gave me.

Adrenal fatigue can cause a whole cascade of responses; high cortisol, low DHEA, low pregnenolone, elevated prolactin, lowered test, increased norepinephrine, etc. You basically can get stuck in 'fight or flight' mode, but after consecutive months of this, there's no more 'fight' left in you, but you still feel all the symptoms of it. Its a really terrible feeling.
 
I doubt your friend has a dopamine issue.
It sounds to me like adrenal fatigue. I have had it severely at one point and had to take meds to lower cortisol. I was beaten down to the ground yet still couldn't fall asleep if my life depended on it. I would have lost my mind if it weren't for the medication I was prescribed.
It took me a really long time to recover, probably about 6 months.
I was working 18-22 hours a day, 7 days a week, still training, and was stressed out of my mind. I had to dramatically change my lifestyle in order to recover, as well as take the Remeron my doc gave me.

Adrenal fatigue can cause a whole cascade of responses; high cortisol, low DHEA, low pregnenolone, elevated prolactin, lowered test, increased norepinephrine, etc. You basically can get stuck in 'fight or flight' mode, but after consecutive months of this, there's no more 'fight' left in you, but you still feel all the symptoms of it. Its a really terrible feeling.

Thank you so much for your response! What caused your adrenal fatigue? He has recently started a new high stress job and it is very big lifestyle change for him on top of his gear going from 1700 mg week (including 700 mg mast) to 250 mg test week (the creme - so absorption rate is bad). He said he is quitting bodybuilding all together because of this - that's how bad it is. He says he has no feelings or emotions including love and has no motivation to do anything. I cannot stress how bad he feels. Another thing he mentioned though that when he takes his creme he gets relief for an hour or so. Does that line up with adrenal fatigue?
 
Is Marvin Gaye?
 
He has recently started a new high stress job and it is very big lifestyle change for him on top of his gear going from 1700 mg week (including 700 mg mast) to 250 mg test week (the creme - so absorption rate is bad). He said he is quitting bodybuilding all together because of this - that's how bad it is. He says he has no feelings or emotions including love and has no motivation to do anything. I cannot stress how bad he feels. Another thing he mentioned though that when he takes his creme he gets relief for an hour or so. Does that line up with adrenal fatigue?

Tell him to pin 250mg Test a week!

I have/had clinical adrenal fatigue. The symptoms you described are exactly like mine.

Have him get a diurnal cortisol test done.
 
adrenal fatiige is caused by too much stimlation, that stimulation could come from drugs, environment or thought process but it is likely a combination of all 3.

the idea is not to do it in the first place and watch for warning signs.

i feel like in bb and particularly this board we are missing the part about the whole organism. more drugsand supps is not the best answer, usually it only masks the problem. you need to figure out how to make all this work for your body.

part of this is stress management, part is life sytle and environmental control, which is also associated with stress management.

the thing with your friend, without knowing too much is that he is where he is because of poor decision makinng and drug knowledge, in all probability he could have avoided feeling how he does by running pct drugs regularly and working to keep doses down, and cycling p when necesary.

also he is gona have major cortistol rebound from being on and coming off. this will be exagerated if he is also changing his life style and schedule.

not sure if you have read any of the antioxident info im allways squaking about but it plays a major role in all this and it has a lot to do with fight/flight responce the thn mentioned.

sometimes your body just needs a break, if you have been pushing non stop for a while you have most likely become over trained and run yourself into the ground, masking it with aas and stims.

the other thing i forgot to mention is that there is something to using a progesteron based drug at specific times to extend the effectiveness of your cycle, cortisone can be used too. not that im suggesting doing either without understanding why. so that might be the reason you see a nice bump from something like npp. that said i dont think its gona be the life changing experiance you are expecting.
 
adrenal fatiige is caused by too much stimlation, that stimulation could come from drugs, environment or thought process but it is likely a combination of all 3.

the idea is not to do it in the first place and watch for warning signs.

i feel like in bb and particularly this board we are missing the part about the whole organism. more drugsand supps is not the best answer, usually it only masks the problem. you need to figure out how to make all this work for your body.

part of this is stress management, part is life sytle and environmental control, which is also associated with stress management.

the thing with your friend, without knowing too much is that he is where he is because of poor decision makinng and drug knowledge, in all probability he could have avoided feeling how he does by running pct drugs regularly and working to keep doses down, and cycling p when necesary.

also he is gona have major cortistol rebound from being on and coming off. this will be exagerated if he is also changing his life style and schedule.

not sure if you have read any of the antioxident info im allways squaking about but it plays a major role in all this and it has a lot to do with fight/flight responce the thn mentioned.

sometimes your body just needs a break, if you have been pushing non stop for a while you have most likely become over trained and run yourself into the ground, masking it with aas and stims.

the other thing i forgot to mention is that there is something to using a progesteron based drug at specific times to extend the effectiveness of your cycle, cortisone can be used too. not that im suggesting doing either without understanding why. so that might be the reason you see a nice bump from something like npp. that said i dont think its gona be the life changing experiance you are expecting.

Yea, my friend was on trt before he ever started aas so pct wasn't an option. He does have a great deal of knowledge of aas - more than almost every bodybuilder I have met. However, all that knowledge doesn't mean he couldn't overlook something like he did in this case and make a mistake.

I'm not expecting a life changing experience from npp. I just am looking for something to go along with my test in between orals.
 
Yea, my friend was on trt before he ever started aas so pct wasn't an option. He does have a great deal of knowledge of aas - more than almost every bodybuilder I have met. However, all that knowledge doesn't mean he couldn't overlook something like he did in this case and make a mistake.

I'm not expecting a life changing experience from npp. I just am looking for something to go along with my test in between orals.

you said it all right there. "my friend was on trt before he started aas"

i have a few issues with this. was he really really on trt? from the sound of this thread im thinking that you are less the 30yo and your fiend is too. so how is this genetic freak on trt in his early 20's?

he isnt. the reality is he has just been juicing for a while and doing it wrong. which is why he is suffering a bit now.

you see pct is always an option. it doesnt matter how long you have been on, you can get yourself back up to some kind of function and i feel that doing so is a very important thing for general health, also if you want your aas to work.

i see all these guys on here talking about trt for life but even with this if you run soil pct several times a year you will be much better off. its gona make you feel better, whcih is supper important, but its gona make your drugs work better too, it is a crucial part of this life style.
 
you said it all right there. "my friend was on trt before he started aas"

i have a few issues with this. was he really really on trt? from the sound of this thread im thinking that you are less the 30yo and your fiend is too. so how is this genetic freak on trt in his early 20's?

he isnt. the reality is he has just been juicing for a while and doing it wrong. which is why he is suffering a bit now.

you see pct is always an option. it doesnt matter how long you have been on, you can get yourself back up to some kind of function and i feel that doing so is a very important thing for general health, also if you want your aas to work.

i see all these guys on here talking about trt for life but even with this if you run soil pct several times a year you will be much better off. its gona make you feel better, whcih is supper important, but its gona make your drugs work better too, it is a crucial part of this life style.

He had a pituitary gland disorder that was diagnosed when he was 18. His test levels at 18 were 250 ng. He worked with his doctor and tried everything including clomid therapy and eventually he and his doc decided trt was the best option. I agree with you that pct is always best for health and yes it does allow for receptor refreshing and a "big jump" once you get back on cycle, however, in terms of gains nothing compares to staying on year round - it's no contest. Given two genetically similar athletes and ignoring injury or health problems, the year round user will crush a cycling user in terms of leanness and muscle mass. However, with staying on come huge risks and I think too many people sign up for life when they shouldn't. Using gear in general should only be reserved to competitive bodybuilders/strength athletes/lifters ect and now everyone uses. Staying on for life when pct was an option should only be for the top echelon of competitors if they think those risks merit their potential rewards. I'm afraid too many people jump to year round gear these days.
 
Last edited:
I doubt your friend has a dopamine issue.
It sounds to me like adrenal fatigue. I have had it severely at one point and had to take meds to lower cortisol. I was beaten down to the ground yet still couldn't fall asleep if my life depended on it. I would have lost my mind if it weren't for the medication I was prescribed.
It took me a really long time to recover, probably about 6 months.
I was working 18-22 hours a day, 7 days a week, still training, and was stressed out of my mind. I had to dramatically change my lifestyle in order to recover, as well as take the Remeron my doc gave me.

Adrenal fatigue can cause a whole cascade of responses; high cortisol, low DHEA, low pregnenolone, elevated prolactin, lowered test, increased norepinephrine, etc. You basically can get stuck in 'fight or flight' mode, but after consecutive months of this, there's no more 'fight' left in you, but you still feel all the symptoms of it. Its a really terrible feeling.

what were you prescribed?




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