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Article: Deca-Durabolin Weakens Tendons and Collagen

So if you ran 200 test/200 primo would that be a middle of the road, grow slow and heal stack perhaps?

Here's the problem: You've read/quoted one post in this thread that states AAS is good for collagen synthesis, without any evidence within this thread to back it up, and you're already making cycle stacks based on that?

Have you completely disregarded my initial post? Are you going to do any comprehensive studying yourself to determine what you read/quoted as fact? This is the problem with newbs (and I don't mean that negatively) entering this underworld. I didn't post up those studies for nothing. I have more to post tonight, as well.
 
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While I am a proponent of maximum education, there comes a point when someone can rely too much on theory and not enough on practice. I'm not here to shed any light on the nandrolone for tendons and collagen debate. I'm actually using nandrolone now for this first time in over 4 years. But I will say most BBers don't train to enhance their tendon and ligament strength and integrity and as a result when the muscles get bigger and stronger out of proportion to the ligaments and tendons that IMO contributes more to injuries than compound selection
 
While I am a proponent of maximum education, there comes a point when someone can rely too much on theory and not enough on practice. I'm not here to shed any light on the nandrolone for tendons and collagen debate. I'm actually using nandrolone now for this first time in over 4 years. But I will say most BBers don't train to enhance their tendon and ligament strength and integrity and as a result when the muscles get bigger and stronger out of proportion to the ligaments and tendons that IMO contributes more to injuries than compound selection

how do you train to increase tendon and ligament strength.
 
Here's the problem: You've read/quoted one post in this thread that states AAS is good for collagen synthesis, without any evidence within this thread to back it up, and you're already making cycle stacks based on that?

Have you completely disregarded my initial post? Are you going to do any comprehensive studying yourself to determine what you read/quoted as fact? This is the problem with newbs (and I don't mean that negatively) entering this underworld. I didn't post up those studies for nothing. I have more to post tonight, as well.

Not at all. I was bouncing between posts. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/6990-good-read-about-tendons-5.html
I linked several studies there that oppose the view that test decreases collegen. I'm my ADD mind I mixed topic with this one.
HeavyIron has a old thread on another forum with some good info as well. It talked about 2mg/lb body weight for helping injuries.

I'm looking at it from the idea of enhanced health rather than strictly gains. Something along the line of long term dosages for the TRT patient for a optimal combo of replacement and enhancement.

I've also found ones that oppose the rat study on deca.
Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during... [Metabolism. 1990] - PubMed - NCBI
Serum PIIINP was measured every 3 months during the study. Anabolic steroid therapy resulted in a more than 50% increase (P less than .001) in serum PIIINP at 3 months, which thereafter decayed but remained significantly increased throughout the study period. Serum PIIINP showed the same pattern during estrogen-progestogen therapy, but to a lesser degree. We conclude that anabolic steroids stimulate type III collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women, while estrogen-progestogen therapy may have such an effect, but only to a lesser degree.

ScienceDirect.com - Archives of Medical Research - Higher Physiological Doses of Nandrolone Decanoate Do Not Influence the Bezold-Jarish Reflex Control of Bradycardia

We concluded that 4 weeks ND treatment induced an anabolic effect and the beginnings of LV remodeling, mainly due to excessive collagen deposition in the cardiac extracellular matrix. However, the treatment did not influence BJR control of bradycardia, an effect that could be explained by an enhanced efferent vagal tonus in DECA animals.

Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons



Ioannis K. Triantafillopoulos, MD*,, Albert J. Banes, PhD,,, Karl F. Bowman, Jr||, Melissa Maloney, MS¶, William E. Garrett, Jr, MD, PhD# and Spero G. Karas, MD*,,**



From * the Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, the Department of Biomedical Engineering, the || School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ¶ Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, and the # Department of Orthopaedics, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina

** Address correspondence to Spero G. Karas, MD, Chief, Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, CB#7055, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7055 (e-mail: [email protected] ).



Background: To date, no studies document the effect of anabolic steroids on rotator cuff tendons.

Study Design: Controlled laboratory study.

Hypothesis: Anabolic steroids enhance remodeling and improve the biomechanical properties of bioartificially engineered human supraspinatus tendons.

Methods: Bioartificial tendons were treated with either nandrolone decanoate (nonload, steroid, n = 18), loading (load, nonsteroid, n = 18), or both (load, steroid, n = 18). A control group received no treatment (nonload, nonsteroid [NLNS], n = 18). Bioartificial tendons’ remodeling was assessed by daily scanning, cytoskeletal organization by staining, matrix metalloproteinase–3 levels by ELISA assay, and biomechanical properties by load-to-failure testing.

Results: The load, steroid group showed the greatest remodeling and the best organized actin cytoskeleton. Matrix metallo-proteinase–3 levels in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid group (P < .05). Ultimate stress and ultimate strain in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid and nonload, steroid groups (P < .05). The strain energy density in the load, steroid group was greater when compared to other groups (P < .05).

Conclusions: Nandrolone decanoate and load acted synergistically to increase matrix remodeling and biomechanical properties of bioartificial tendons. Clinical Relevance: Data suggest anabolic steroids may enhance production of bioartificial tendons and rotator cuff tendon healing in vitro. More research is necessary before such clinical use is recommended.
 
Coulda been a bunch a different things that cuzed a injury, I don't like tha article no prof there even on deca and it makes my joints feel good for a reason just like others aggravate them more for a reason
 
Not at all. I was bouncing between posts. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/6990-good-read-about-tendons-5.html
I linked several studies there that oppose the view that test decreases collegen. I'm my ADD mind I mixed topic with this one.
HeavyIron has a old thread on another forum with some good info as well. It talked about 2mg/lb body weight for helping injuries.

I'm looking at it from the idea of enhanced health rather than strictly gains. Something along the line of long term dosages for the TRT patient for a optimal combo of replacement and enhancement.

I've also found ones that oppose the rat study on deca.
Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during... [Metabolism. 1990] - PubMed - NCBI
Serum PIIINP was measured every 3 months during the study. Anabolic steroid therapy resulted in a more than 50% increase (P less than .001) in serum PIIINP at 3 months, which thereafter decayed but remained significantly increased throughout the study period. Serum PIIINP showed the same pattern during estrogen-progestogen therapy, but to a lesser degree. We conclude that anabolic steroids stimulate type III collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women, while estrogen-progestogen therapy may have such an effect, but only to a lesser degree.

ScienceDirect.com - Archives of Medical Research - Higher Physiological Doses of Nandrolone Decanoate Do Not Influence the Bezold-Jarish Reflex Control of Bradycardia

We concluded that 4 weeks ND treatment induced an anabolic effect and the beginnings of LV remodeling, mainly due to excessive collagen deposition in the cardiac extracellular matrix. However, the treatment did not influence BJR control of bradycardia, an effect that could be explained by an enhanced efferent vagal tonus in DECA animals.

Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons



Ioannis K. Triantafillopoulos, MD*,, Albert J. Banes, PhD,,, Karl F. Bowman, Jr||, Melissa Maloney, MS¶, William E. Garrett, Jr, MD, PhD# and Spero G. Karas, MD*,,**



From * the Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, the Department of Biomedical Engineering, the || School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, ¶ Flexcell International Corporation, Hillsborough, North Carolina, and the # Department of Orthopaedics, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina

** Address correspondence to Spero G. Karas, MD, Chief, Shoulder and Elbow Service, University of North Carolina, Department of Orthopaedics, CB#7055, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7055 (e-mail: [email protected] ).



Background: To date, no studies document the effect of anabolic steroids on rotator cuff tendons.

Study Design: Controlled laboratory study.

Hypothesis: Anabolic steroids enhance remodeling and improve the biomechanical properties of bioartificially engineered human supraspinatus tendons.

Methods: Bioartificial tendons were treated with either nandrolone decanoate (nonload, steroid, n = 18), loading (load, nonsteroid, n = 18), or both (load, steroid, n = 18). A control group received no treatment (nonload, nonsteroid [NLNS], n = 18). Bioartificial tendons’ remodeling was assessed by daily scanning, cytoskeletal organization by staining, matrix metalloproteinase–3 levels by ELISA assay, and biomechanical properties by load-to-failure testing.

Results: The load, steroid group showed the greatest remodeling and the best organized actin cytoskeleton. Matrix metallo-proteinase–3 levels in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid group (P < .05). Ultimate stress and ultimate strain in the load, steroid group were greater than those of the nonload, nonsteroid and nonload, steroid groups (P < .05). The strain energy density in the load, steroid group was greater when compared to other groups (P < .05).

Conclusions: Nandrolone decanoate and load acted synergistically to increase matrix remodeling and biomechanical properties of bioartificial tendons. Clinical Relevance: Data suggest anabolic steroids may enhance production of bioartificial tendons and rotator cuff tendon healing in vitro. More research is necessary before such clinical use is recommended.

Bubba this seems to point toward the opposite about deca. and it really is good for the joints. any thoughts?
 
The article misrepresented a lot of data from the studies it cited, sometimes even stating the opposite of what the study's conclusion was. Some of the studies exaggerated their data through cleverly scaled graphs, or hid many many many variables, which I might add, is usually intentional in the scientific community. The more data you have to support your point, the more you include. Some people on these boards have WAY too much faith in researchers in the scientific community. Many are just people trying to pump out information for the companies that fund them, and make it look as interesting as possible, while not disappointing the aims of their sponsors.[b/]


That seems backwards here. The study shows that a substance does NOT heal tendons. What commercial interest does that serve? I agree that we need to be skeptical, particularly when research funded by a manufacturer promotes that manufacturer's product. But that is not the care here.
 
I put the most weight in the study on postmenopausal women. They had significant increases in type III collagen if i read that correctly.
 
Well ain't that a b**ch.....For years I've been told that Deca increases collagen synthesis and is actually good for protecting and healing connective tissue. Its things like this that make me think that at my age (42) I'm just going to stick with trt and GH.......OK.....maybe with the occasional tren blast :) Great post Bubba....thanks.

deca is still good. just use an 8week course once a year.

Stay away from winny period. Its no good and theres other options.

Always use eq. I took a gram of test and 600mgs eq for a year and improved all blood work. When doc looked at my shoulders i had tons of collegen and teriffic spacing in my knee caps, generally the doc said with bbs they would see degerative effect.

Just be smart guys. And taking 500mg of test is not going to destroy your tendons, it makes its own collegen in low doses, its when you go real heavy you need eq pentosan and gh
 
kind of an old thread to revive but how do we know it's not some other factor causing the rats to lose tendon strength?

maybe it's the natural testosterone shutdown?

they gave the rats *only* deca, correct? how many of do cycles with *only* deca and nothing else? i feel like there are more variables here that aren't being explored, especially from the perspective of bodybuilding.
 
ok i think we agree that some agree and some do not

I THINK THE BIGGEST QUESTION THAT NEEDS ANSWERED IS

What can we take that will build tendons and help us not tear a joint up!!!???

i think this answer is more valuable --anyone know the answer???? :confused:

Easy answer. Hgh.
 
As far as collagen what does this mean for your face?

If you use deca are you gonna start to look older due to collagen loss?
 
I read an article in Muscular Development mag. that said there were several studies that showed that nandrolone actually strengthened tendons and ligaments. So maybe we have conflicting studies. Which is nothing new.
 
I am a proponent of maximum education

I will say most BBers don't train to enhance their tendon and ligament strength and integrity and as a result when the muscles get bigger and stronger out of proportion to the ligaments and tendons that IMO contributes more to injuries than compound selection


You are absolutely correct in two points, education and training properly.
I can say 100% for certain that AAS leads to tendon and/or ligament damage if the proper training protocols are not followed.
I am no stranger to this. I have had surgery on both triceps tendons (left then right arm 2 years later, which was in June this year)
It is a proven fact that tendon and ligaments do not heal nor grow at the rate muscle fibers do especially on AAS.

Let me explain this in the simplest way I know how without getting technical.
Tendons and ligaments are less vascular then muscle cells. Myofascial tissues need blood to receive oxygen, nutrients to heal and clear waste products. The fibers that are most vascular and receive what they need heal the quickest, while the fibers that don't receive as much (about 30% less +/- a bit) such as ligaments & tendons, which in turn cause them to repair much slower. Ligaments & tendons also respond to higher rep, low weigh, functional type training that allows it to get the nutrients etc. that they need.
Back on point... While muscle and tendon may both have receptors that receive the the signal from the chemical compounds we use, its the way the less oxygenated tissue heals that causes the issues from AAS usage.
 
Blah Blah Blah! So tired of all the conflicting information out there. Listen to your body. You can tell when you're drying out and when your joints start hurting. You can also tell when something is working and when it isn't. If your joints hurt, lower the weight. If your blood pressure is too high, lower the dose.
 
could be because they are older? Lifting heavy a$$ weights for years could have done damage on them too. I hope its not the deca cuz thats my rats favorite haha.
 
Blah Blah Blah! So tired of all the conflicting information out there. Listen to your body. You can tell when you're drying out and when your joints start hurting. You can also tell when something is working and when it isn't. If your joints hurt, lower the weight. If your blood pressure is too high, lower the dose.

Not necessarily true, at least in my case. For years I had managable pain in my knees from years of squatting, but for the 2 years leading up to my injury, I never squatted more than maybe 315, usually 225, or just leg presses. in late 2009, I started squatting again, due to almost no pain; I figured I had healed up since Id taken it easy for awhile. In Feb 2010 Id worked back up to 8 - 10 reps with 405, very little pain, if any. Then one day on the 5th rep of my second set, SNAP SNAP, both quad tendons ruptured completely, leaving me wallowing on the floor unable to stand or extend my legs. I had no pain for a warning. Next day I had surgery to reattach them both, followed by 8 weeks in full casts, then a month or so therapy.
Many factors though, could have contributed to the breakage, but point is, I had no warning. Very rare case though
 
You are absolutely correct in two points, education and training properly.
I can say 100% for certain that AAS leads to tendon and/or ligament damage if the proper training protocols are not followed.
I am no stranger to this. I have had surgery on both triceps tendons (left then right arm 2 years later, which was in June this year)
It is a proven fact that tendon and ligaments do not heal nor grow at the rate muscle fibers do especially on AAS.

Let me explain this in the simplest way I know how without getting technical.
Tendons and ligaments are less vascular then muscle cells. Myofascial tissues need blood to receive oxygen, nutrients to heal and clear waste products. The fibers that are most vascular and receive what they need heal the quickest, while the fibers that don't receive as much (about 30% less +/- a bit) such as ligaments & tendons, which in turn cause them to repair much slower. Ligaments & tendons also respond to higher rep, low weigh, functional type training that allows it to get the nutrients etc. that they need.
Back on point... While muscle and tendon may both have receptors that receive the the signal from the chemical compounds we use, its the way the less oxygenated tissue heals that causes the issues from AAS usage.

So with this in mind, and safety being a main concern, the best way to train under these circumstances would be training in a higher rep range, since the weight would be A. Lighter B. High Rep so its a training style that's more so tailored for nutrient delivery rather then pure strength/hypertrophy.

Perhaps training in the 15-20 rep range ?
 

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