astragalus and possible kidney delusion

[whacked]

Ahhh ok. Thanks for the clarification Stewie.

When you finally decide to take that career path change; I’ll be your first mock patient. Deal?

Lol. Thanks Stew & keep up the great work. Nice to have a mind like yours around to help!!

You're welcome. No I'm not an MD.

I've briefly talked about my passion for sciences in this thread:

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...676-little-slice-no-bully-pls-pt-2-a-237.html

 

[qbkilla]

Remembered this about anavar, from wiki:

"The drug is metabolized primarily by the kidneys and to a lesser extent by the liver. Oxandrolone is the only AAS that is not primarily or extensively metabolized by the liver, and this is thought to be related to its diminished hepatotoxicity relative to other AAS."

Also remember it being excreted unchanged in the urine, to a larger degree than other steroids.

What is the recommended doses of astragalus as a proactive/preventative supp?

anavar made me piss more protein according to urinalysis than anything, I did abuse it (100mg for 7 or so weeks) but ive taken high dosages of tren and drol as well. as soon as I stopped var my protein levels in my urine decreased. anavar is said to be safe but it is one compound I stay away from now, I feel like tren is much safer actually. I read other guys online said var made them piss alot of protein also.

 

[Kaladryn]

anavar made me piss more protein according to urinalysis than anything, I did abuse it (100mg for 7 or so weeks) but ive taken high dosages of tren and drol as well. as soon as I stopped var my protein levels in my urine decreased. anavar is said to be safe but it is one compound I stay away from now, I feel like tren is much safer actually. I read other guys online said var made them piss alot of protein also.

If the urine testing is done with a dipstick, myoglobin, released from muscle damage, will show up as protein.

 

[whacked]

Ouch. So we should consider Var problematic nephrotoxic? And not as mild over in terms of overall toxicity as a result?

 

[whacked]

^anyone know ?

 

[qbkilla]

I consider var harsh on kidneys based on my experience and some others I have seen on forums who had similar things happen...but overall it is considered mild...but it's not like people are regularly getting urine tests done on it I just happened to catch chlymidia so I did. So who knows? I dont touch it anymore.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Nonsense

 

[Kaladryn]

Var is 17-alkylated, it isn't mild, the HORMONE and METABOLITES OF THE HORMONE may be "mild" but aren't almost all AAS "mild?" Except maybe 2-3.

It is STILL 17-alkylated and will have the same amount of first-pass stress on the liver, this is an effect that is very hard to measure since liver enzymes are going to be elevated from exercise anyway.

I don't think any AAS is hard on the kidneys except for the elevated BP effect and perhaps myoglobin, how did we get talking about var and kidney damage?

edit: oh I see now, there have been studies on var, I wonder why they never noticed the urine protein from var...

 

[Bio]

Don't forget Var is very harsh on HDL. 100mg daily for 7 weeks listed above had HDL in single digits for sure.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Var is 17-alkylated, it isn't mild, the HORMONE and METABOLITES OF THE HORMONE may be "mild" but aren't almost all AAS "mild?" Except maybe 2-3.

It is STILL 17-alkylated and will have the same amount of first-pass stress on the liver, this is an effect that is very hard to measure since liver enzymes are going to be elevated from exercise anyway.

I don't think any AAS is hard on the kidneys except for the elevated BP effect and perhaps myoglobin, how did we get talking about var and kidney damage?

edit: oh I see now, there have been studies on var, I wonder why they never noticed the urine protein from var...

1) Not all 17aa-steroids are created equal. Some can be considered more mild than others based on reduced liver toxicity. Mg for mg, Anavar is less toxic than for example superdrol, despite both of them being 17-aa.

2) The liver toxicity of 17aa steroids is not due to 'first-pass stress'. Orals are just as liver-toxic when the first pass is avoided by means of injecting the drug. Instead, 17aa steroids inactivate hepatocellular transport proteins (chiefly BSEP) which subsequently leads to bland cholestasis.

3) There have been many long-term studies of oxandrolone, and none of them showed renal impairment or notable proteinuria. But if you have papers showing differently, please share.

4) In principal, 17aa steroids can lead to bile acid nephropathy subsequent to persistent cholestasis and hyperbilirubinemia.

 

[Kaladryn]

1) Not all 17aa-steroids are created equal. Some can be considered more mild than others based on reduced liver toxicity. Mg for mg, Anavar is less toxic than for example superdrol, despite both of them being 17-aa.

This is EXACTLY what I said, I just gave the technical answer: the 17-akylated part is just as liver toxic and anavar and anadrol, the only difference is the actual hormone itself and metabolites of that hormone.

2) The liver toxicity of 17aa steroids is not due to 'first-pass stress'. Orals are just as liver-toxic when the first pass is avoided by means of injecting the drug. Instead, 17aa steroids inactivate hepatocellular transport proteins (chiefly BSEP) which subsequently leads to bland cholestasis.

That is the "first pass" which ALSO happens if you inject.

3) There have been many long-term studies of oxandrolone, and none of them showed renal impairment or notable proteinuria. But if you have papers showing differently, please share.

There are studies on anadrol showing it is safe at crazy doses also, what is the original dosage recommendation? 2-3mg/kg or something crazy like that? This means nothing.

4) In principal, 17aa steroids can lead to bile acid nephropathy subsequent to persistent cholestasis and hyperbilirubinemia.

That's it? These are the only liver diseases you think "orals" impact?

There is clearly some serious phycological interest in thinking of anavar is safe, so much so that I would say this is practically a political argument. I know everyone wants to gobble anavar and feel safe. I think it's just as toxic. The "exception" would be orals that have crazy toxic hormone/metabolite profiles, like superdrol (no one in their right mind would use this anyway).

And as is tradition, I won't be returning to this thread, already too much of my time wasted on well known information I have posted dozens of times.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

There is clearly some serious phycological interest in thinking of anavar is safe, so much so that I would say this is practically a political argument. I know everyone wants to gobble anavar and feel safe. I think it's just as toxic. The "exception" would be orals that have crazy toxic hormone/metabolite profiles, like superdrol (no one in their right mind would use this anyway).

And as is tradition, I won't be returning to this thread, already too much of my time wasted on well known information I have posted dozens of times.

Yes, its customary that you bow out of threads once you get the slightest bit of criticism...

Your reply shows that this topic is way over your head. You should look up the definition of 'first pass', and note that 'bile acid nephropathy' is a kidney disease secondary to a certain type of liver disease.

 

[whacked]

Good info. Wish we could keep the dialogue going. Always nice to hear two contrarian positions on a subject from two smart dudes.

 

[Mikedee29]

1) Not all 17aa-steroids are created equal. Some can be considered more mild than others based on reduced liver toxicity. Mg for mg, Anavar is less toxic than for example superdrol, despite both of them being 17-aa.

2) The liver toxicity of 17aa steroids is not due to 'first-pass stress'. Orals are just as liver-toxic when the first pass is avoided by means of injecting the drug. Instead, 17aa steroids inactivate hepatocellular transport proteins (chiefly BSEP) which subsequently leads to bland cholestasis.

3) There have been many long-term studies of oxandrolone, and none of them showed renal impairment or notable proteinuria. But if you have papers showing differently, please share.

4) In principal, 17aa steroids can lead to bile acid nephropathy subsequent to persistent cholestasis and hyperbilirubinemia.

In your opinion which steroids do you think are safest on the kidneys.

 

[Killer.7]

Hey guys. Bumping this thread. Just came back from the nephro. He says my kidneys are functioning great. There is still a small amount of protein showing up in my 24 hour piss test i did back in june. Its less than a gram so he is not worried. He said when it gets into the 2-3 grams of protein per liter range is when they start discussing biopsy.

We also discussed creatinine clearance calculation as many of you think its the best method to show kidney filtration function. My per minute calculation is really good actually.

using this link https://qxmd.com/calculate/calculator_52/crcl-from-24h-urine

My creatinine clearance is 173.21 mL/min

My urine creatinine concentration is 7.1 mmol/L
My plasma creatinine is 120 umol/L
And my total urine output in 24 hours was 4.1 litres

 

[nothuman]

Hey guys. Bumping this thread. Just came back from the nephro. He says my kidneys are functioning great. There is still a small amount of protein showing up in my 24 hour piss test i did back in june. Its less than a gram so he is not worried. He said when it gets into the 2-3 grams of protein per liter range is when they start discussing biopsy.

We also discussed creatinine clearance calculation as many of you think its the best method to show kidney filtration function. My per minute calculation is really good actually.

using this link https://qxmd.com/calculate/calculator_52/crcl-from-24h-urine

My creatinine clearance is 173.21 mL/min

My urine creatinine concentration is 7.1 mmol/L
My plasma creatinine is 120 umol/L
And my total urine output in 24 hours was 4.1 litres

Are you currently taking Astragalus? Kind of a big piece of info you forgot to include there.

 

[Killer.7]

ya still running astragalus 4 grams NOW brand.

 

[Killer.7]

bump

 

[Soalian]

No, myoglobin wouldn't cause an increase in BUN. And BUN inside the normal range isn't an indicator of kidney function. BUN suffers from the same problem creatinine has, diagnostic testing involving it almost always assumes everyone is making about the same amount.

You are correct, a high BUN isn't supposed to be hard on the kidneys, otherwise healthy kidneys can handle very high protein diets without a problem.

What I'm talking about is a "perfect storm" of high BUN and acidity in general in the kidenys during ultra-intense workouts that could be releasing myoglobin into the blood.



I hope this isn't directed at me, because I agree it's extremely dangerous to disregard low GFR and I never said such. In fact, it is exactly the opposite, I'm saying that a HIGH GFR doesn't mean your kidneys are fine, it just means they are able to handle the current load they are under. Kidneys are one of the hardest organs to diagnose and the currently method for estimating GFR from just a blood test doesn't diagnose any level of fuction in OTHERWISE HEALTHY kidneys.

What is dangerous is making people think that their high GFR means their kidneys are fine.

1. I'm not saying a high GFR means you could be in kidney failure, I'm saying that a high GFR doesn't mean your kidneys are functioning at a very high level, it just means they are functioning well under the current load.

2. If you collect urine for 24-hours, then get a blood test done, you can see how much creatinine the kidneys are ACTUALLY processing and you can estimate a MUCH MORE accurate GFR. This would be significant. However, the estimated one, although usually the same in "normal people" will go down significantly as muscle mass increases, as protein increases, even when kidneys are functioning perfectly.

3. And a LOW eGFR (actually below the normal range) is usually a good indicator of a problem, I never said otherwise. In fact, the whole "eGFR estimation" works just fine in people who have real kidney disease.

I know it's three years old, but those are my exacts thoughts almost; so many bbers are coping with seemingly "fine" GFR levels, while they might have undergone much damage still.