At what age do you think you will or should stop cycles?

[maldorf]

Article on unnaturally low and high levels.

Unhealthy Testosterone Levels in Men: Causes and Symptoms - Blog | Everlywell: Home Health Testing Made Easy

Testosterone is the primary hormone behind muscle-building, libido, mood, and energy. Learn what high and low levels of testosterone mean for your health.

www.everlywell.com

"High testosterone causes​

Excess testosterone in men can result from testicular or adrenal tumors. Even if these tumors are benign – that is, they aren’t malignant or cancerous – they can still boost testosterone levels to unhealthy levels, as can steroid use and abuse.

And if you don’t treat your high testosterone levels? Elevated testosterone will raise your “bad” cholesterol levels, and can thus lead to heart health issues – potentially resulting in a heart attack, cardiovascular disease, or stroke. Risk of sleep apnea and infertility is also heightened if you have high testosterone levels.

Some men actually have a genetic predisposition for developing high levels of testosterone. Studies show that these individuals that fall within this category are at a much higher risk for developing blood clots, heart disease, and a variety of other cardiovascular issues. Because of the severity of this issue, it is essential that men with high testosterone are tested and are aware of their potential risks."

 

[Flex500]

At 36 I changed a lot. I'm 38 now. I spend ~3 months on 100-120mgs trt and 2-3 months on hcg. The other 6 months 200-300mgs of test or so. I'll probably continue on like this forever.

It's just too risky. Having the mental ability to flip the switch is hard...really hard. I went from "240 is where I can stay" to "220-225 is still pretty big this will work" to 215 to now 210. Ideally, at 5'8" it's probably best I settle at 200lbs.

I'm also thoroughly convinced you can do more, longer, if you bring down the bodyweight. Less food, less stress on your body, etc. If you are an extreme 250+ and lean guy but can bring that down to even 220 you are likely going to do a lot to help yourself live longer.

 

[Flex500]

Also, Kaladryn said it earlier but I truly believe if you start in your 20's or 30's of going down to true trt or off 3-4 months of the year will will extend and save lives. Think if when you were 25 you started coming off or legit trt 4 months of the year. By the time you are 40 that is roughly 5 years of being off or true trt.

At 38 and pushing 39 I feel like I need to ensure for 5-6 months my test levels are in a normal range and that accumulation of doing that over the years I'm hoping extends my life greatly...or maybe I'll get hit by a bus lol.

 

[alfresco]

I don’t think his doc mentioned this but makes much sense
My brother also isnt very naturally muscular - actually pretty thin..doesnt have that masculine square jaw etc. just high test levels and did say he can have sex 3 times a day if his wife would be up for it
Says sex drive was always very high

FYI . . . my cousin mentioned in my post fathered triplets.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Too many guys in their 30's here on TRT. Either testosterone levels are unusually really low due to environmental factors (plastics, pollution, etc) or something else is going on. Are the 30-somethings here all suffering from hypogonadism or hypopituitarism or is this just gaming the system to obtain legal AAS? Up until my 30's, the very few times I had male hormone panels, my testosterone levels were always approx 700ng/dL. I kept one which was 1027 for bragging rights. But during my 30's, my T levels dropped significantly and unexpectedly enough for me to be diagnosed with hypopituitarism as my GH levels were also low. I had Rx's from legitimate doctors for testosterone and GH (not these questionable anti-aging/rejuvenation clinics). But I have to say, if it's legit happening this often, it's either 1) a rather alarming trend or 2) something that always existed but simply went undiagnosed.

One thing I have not seen is any literature or studies that show large differences in metabolic clearance rates (MCR) of endogenous testosterone. I would attribute much of the disparity in MCRs relating to exogenous testosterone injections to the simple mechanics of absorption, from needle to receptor; whether it be greater vascularity within the muscle, a poor injection, high/low levels of intramuscular adipose tissue, varying levels of esterase, and the like. For example, doing a delt injection and then training delts a couple hours later is obviously going to mobilize the solution faster than at rest.

@Kaladryn maybe on to something with mimicking your natural pulsatile testosterone production with smaller daily early morning injections. It would have to be a very short ester though like propionate or acetate or perhaps non-esterified testosterone like suspension or TNE being best of all. I'd also like to hear or read more about the E2 relation to T as I've always considered it a fine line to walk between too much E2 vs too little. Specifically, the T: E2 ratio. With high doses of testosterone and/or analogues, I've always performed better going by ratio where if my T and anabolics levels were high, having higher E2 than normal was better for me performance-wise (gym, feeling of wellbeing, or the bedroom) than lower levels (thus, higher ratio). At those high levels, bloods are pretty much easily wrecked anyway so obviously shorter durations of time in those high ranges (a few months or less) would seem beneficial to overall longterm health. Maintaing a good lipid profile during that time would seems difficult. @Kaladryn , you said it would be possible to maintain decent bloodwork in the 2-3gm+ range earlier. Can you flesh out what that might look like? E.g. keeping HCT under control, balancing E2, while maintaing decent lipid profile. Thanks.

Great thread, BTW

 

[buck]

Too many guys in their 30's here on TRT. Either testosterone levels are unusually really low due to environmental factors (plastics, pollution, etc) or something else is going on. Are the 30-somethings here all suffering from hypogonadism or hypopituitarism or is this just gaming the system to obtain legal AAS? Up until my 30's, the very few times I had male hormone panels, my testosterone levels were always approx 700ng/dL. I kept one which was 1027 for bragging rights. But during my 30's, my T levels dropped significantly and unexpectedly enough for me to be diagnosed with hypopituitarism as my GH levels were also low. I had Rx's from legitimate doctors for testosterone and GH (not these questionable anti-aging/rejuvenation clinics). But I have to say, if it's legit happening this often, it's either 1) a rather alarming trend or 2) something that always existed but simply went undiagnosed.

One thing I have not seen is any literature or studies that show large differences in metabolic clearance rates (MCR) of endogenous testosterone. I would attribute much of the disparity in MCRs relating to exogenous testosterone injections to the simple mechanics of absorption, from needle to receptor; whether it be greater vascularity within the muscle, a poor injection, high/low levels of intramuscular adipose tissue, varying levels of esterase, and the like. For example, doing a delt injection and then training delts a couple hours later is obviously going to mobilize the solution faster than at rest.

@Kaladryn maybe on to something with mimicking your natural pulsatile testosterone production with smaller daily early morning injections. It would have to be a very short ester though like propionate or acetate or perhaps non-esterified testosterone like suspension or TNE being best of all. I'd also like to hear or read more about the E2 relation to T as I've always considered it a fine line to walk between too much E2 vs too little. Specifically, the T: E2 ratio. With high doses of testosterone and/or analogues, I've always performed better going by ratio where if my T and anabolics levels were high, having higher E2 than normal was better for me performance-wise (gym, feeling of wellbeing, or the bedroom) than lower levels (thus, higher ratio). At those high levels, bloods are pretty much easily wrecked anyway so obviously shorter durations of time in those high ranges (a few months or less) would seem beneficial to overall longterm health. Maintaing a good lipid profile during that time would seems difficult. @Kaladryn , you said it would be possible to maintain decent bloodwork in the 2-3gm+ range earlier. Can you flesh out what that might look like? E.g. keeping HCT under control, balancing E2, while maintaing decent lipid profile. Thanks.

Great thread, BTW

T levels having been dropping for decades according to many studies. But i would guess that the many at least want theit levels at the upper end at least and that is what drove them to start TRT or what they call their version of it.

Testosterone levels show steady decrease among young US men

The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.

www.urologytimes.com

 

[cage99]

Too many guys in their 30's here on TRT. Either testosterone levels are unusually really low due to environmental factors (plastics, pollution, etc) or something else is going on. Are the 30-somethings here all suffering from hypogonadism or hypopituitarism or is this just gaming the system to obtain legal AAS? Up until my 30's, the very few times I had male hormone panels, my testosterone levels were always approx 700ng/dL. I kept one which was 1027 for bragging rights. But during my 30's, my T levels dropped significantly and unexpectedly enough for me to be diagnosed with hypopituitarism as my GH levels were also low. I had Rx's from legitimate doctors for testosterone and GH (not these questionable anti-aging/rejuvenation clinics). But I have to say, if it's legit happening this often, it's either 1) a rather alarming trend or 2) something that always existed but simply went undiagnosed.

One thing I have not seen is any literature or studies that show large differences in metabolic clearance rates (MCR) of endogenous testosterone. I would attribute much of the disparity in MCRs relating to exogenous testosterone injections to the simple mechanics of absorption, from needle to receptor; whether it be greater vascularity within the muscle, a poor injection, high/low levels of intramuscular adipose tissue, varying levels of esterase, and the like. For example, doing a delt injection and then training delts a couple hours later is obviously going to mobilize the solution faster than at rest.

@Kaladryn maybe on to something with mimicking your natural pulsatile testosterone production with smaller daily early morning injections. It would have to be a very short ester though like propionate or acetate or perhaps non-esterified testosterone like suspension or TNE being best of all. I'd also like to hear or read more about the E2 relation to T as I've always considered it a fine line to walk between too much E2 vs too little. Specifically, the T: E2 ratio. With high doses of testosterone and/or analogues, I've always performed better going by ratio where if my T and anabolics levels were high, having higher E2 than normal was better for me performance-wise (gym, feeling of wellbeing, or the bedroom) than lower levels (thus, higher ratio). At those high levels, bloods are pretty much easily wrecked anyway so obviously shorter durations of time in those high ranges (a few months or less) would seem beneficial to overall longterm health. Maintaing a good lipid profile during that time would seems difficult. @Kaladryn , you said it would be possible to maintain decent bloodwork in the 2-3gm+ range earlier. Can you flesh out what that might look like? E.g. keeping HCT under control, balancing E2, while maintaing decent lipid profile. Thanks.

Great thread, BTW

I believe it’s been around, but just wasn’t treated like it is nowadays. There was the stigma associated with it of not being a real man, etc.. Then you have the stubborn old goats who flat out refuse to visit a doctor.
ED is another one that’s become more mainstream.. Obviously there has been a surge of companies out there capitalizing on these two big issues for men… It’s abt time you don’t have to hide in shame because you’re getting older! I support the ease of getting Rx help 100%.

Cage

 

[OuchThatHurts]

T levels having been dropping for decades according to many studies. But i would guess that the many at least want theit levels at the upper end at least and that is what drove them to start TRT or what they call their version of it.

I know. It's a bad situation. There have been decreasing levels for many years but not into hypogonadal territory (at least not yet). But they've been pulling feminized male fish (eggs and all) out of rivers here in the Northeast U.S. for decades. Phytoestrogens can be the only explanation for the fish but for human males:

According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.

All of the above.

TRT is for (or is supposed to be for) hypogonadal males, not young schmucks who just want to be on the high end of normal because they can't get laid. Then again, those 20 and 30 year-old adolescents would be using PEDs with or without a diagnosis. I agree with you. And calling it TRT is a joke. They're juicing, plain and simple.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

It’s abt time you don’t have to hide in shame because you’re getting older! I support the ease of getting Rx help 100%.

Cage

I agree 100%. But for men that have actual ED or hypogonadism/low T. It's the 'getting help when you don't need help' that's alarming. But running to the medicine cabinet for everything seems to be here to stay. There's really no getting around it. Never mind dropping a few pounds, or getting some physical exercise, or eating healthy, or seeing a therapist. A bottle of these, a vape of this, or a vial of that will fix ya right up.

 

[cage99]

I agree 100%. But for men that have actual ED or hypogonadism/low T. It's the 'getting help when you don't need help' that's alarming. But running to the medicine cabinet for everything seems to be here to stay. There's really no getting around it. Never mind dropping a few pounds, or getting some physical exercise, or eating healthy, or seeing a therapist. A bottle of these, a vape of this, or a vial of that will fix ya right up.

Isn’t that the American dream? Lol… My natural test was tanked from previous cycles when I was young and dumb. Just being flat out uneducated in proper PCT and getting proper blood work. But that’s on me and I’m totally fine depending on my 1ml a week pick me up. Just glad it’s available without jumping through a million hoops!

Cage

 

[maldorf]

Isn’t that the American dream? Lol… My natural test was tanked from previous cycles when I was young and dumb. Just being flat out uneducated in proper PCT and getting proper blood work. But that’s on me and I’m totally fine depending on my 1ml a week pick me up. Just glad it’s available without jumping through a million hoops!

Cage

I think one is factor now is the fact that most guys are on all year long. The days of getting off and being clean with a pct are over. This is the cruise generation.

 

[Reload]

Yep blast and cruise with emphasis on the blast plus insulin, loads of GH, lots of orals, massive amounts of food, plus all the shit to counteract all the other shit. Plus the sedative to sleep and the benzos to chill out. Then there's the stimulants pre workout...

 

[NEMSZ]

I know. It's a bad situation. There have been decreasing levels for many years but not into hypogonadal territory (at least not yet). But they've been pulling feminized male fish (eggs and all) out of rivers here in the Northeast U.S. for decades. Phytoestrogens can be the only explanation for the fish but for human males:

According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.

All of the above.

TRT is for (or is supposed to be for) hypogonadal males, not young schmucks who just want to be on the high end of normal because they can't get laid. Then again, those 20 and 30 year-old adolescents would be using PEDs with or without a diagnosis. I agree with you. And calling it TRT is a joke. They're juicing, plain and simple.

At what age did you start using AAS???

If you started earlier (late teens/ early 20’s) like most guys on here and still had natural levels reaching up to 1,000 at 30 years old then you’re definitely an outlier..:

I started at 18, then did the whole “cruise thing” from 22-23 until 28 with Test only, didn’t do any other AAS, then came off for a year and couldn’t even reach 300ng/dl levels...

And yes, as I admitted before I do game the tests to be able to get more free Pharma Test than I need, but I’m legitimately diagnosed with hypogonadism.. And I do only use 10mg per day for around a 4 month period straight then the rest of the time it’s 20mg per day for about 8-10 week periods until I need to test again and I go back down..

There’s a really good JRE podcast with Dr. Shanna Swan (podcast # 1638) where they discuss environmental factors that have been proven to lower testosterone in men over the decades as well as fertility in men and women and even genital formation during pregnancy etc... Pretty crazy stuff..

 

[Knight9]

I personally think you can typically get away with a lot in your 20's.

Less but still resilient if you are not outright reckless in your 30's.

I advise people after 35 as they approach 40 to really get conservative and smart about things or have a game plan in place to only be aggressive for short periods of time and less often throughout the year.


I started to get pretty conservative around the age of 28/29 and if I dabbled again in any sort of cycle in the future - it certainly would be different than the cycle I would have run in my mid to late 20's. Then again I have to tell people around 50 sometimes to stop using orals every time they cycle and quit using tren and it seems to fall on deaf ears. The information is out there if people look for it and pay attention. What I have illustrated here is not what I knew 10 or 17+ years ago when I started. If I knew then what I know now..I would have really gone a lot harder in my early and mid 20s but I do not regret anything because I have been pretty healthy along the way and had great opportunities while experiencing things I never would have otherwise - had I not been in this sport/industry/endeavor.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

At what age did you start using AAS???

If you started earlier (late teens/ early 20’s) like most guys on here and still had natural levels reaching up to 1,000 at 30 years old then you’re definitely an outlier..:

I started at 18, then did the whole “cruise thing” from 22-23 until 28 with Test only, didn’t do any other AAS, then came off for a year and couldn’t even reach 300ng/dl levels...

And yes, as I admitted before I do game the tests to be able to get more free Pharma Test than I need, but I’m legitimately diagnosed with hypogonadism.. And I do only use 10mg per day for around a 4 month period straight then the rest of the time it’s 20mg per day for about 8-10 week periods until I need to test again and I go back down..

There’s a really good JRE podcast with Dr. Shanna Swan (podcast # 1638) where they discuss environmental factors that have been proven to lower testosterone in men over the decades as well as fertility in men and women and even genital formation during pregnancy etc... Pretty crazy stuff..

Dude, I knew you were gaming the system before you told me. I went to PSU on an academic scholarship. I was a 210lb FB my senior year in high school. 7 years of college and grad school and getting established, was well into my 30's (around 2003) before I touched a PED other than some androstenedione in college. Then I did some big cycles as a powerlifter in my 30's - 40s. I haven't touched gear in 3 years as it is right now, I'm 50 and my testosterone was just under 600ng/dL just 3 weeks ago at 50yrs. I'm no outlier. I just scienced the shit out of everything beforehand and stayed athletic with diet and exercise. I've been a moderator on this board since 2005. If that makes me an outlier than y'all are crazy doing steroids at 18. That's like adding the frosting before the cookies are even baked. Being a hypogonadic male at your age makes you sort of an outlier. At least I hope it is. In any case, sorry to hear about your mistakes.

Besides, you still owe me a fucking apology for calling me an asshole!

 

[NEMSZ]

Dude, I knew you were gaming the system before you told me. I went to PSU on an academic scholarship. I was a 210lb FB my senior year in high school. 7 years of college and grad school and getting established, was well into my 30's (around 2003) before I touched a PED other than some androstenedione in college. Then I did some big cycles as a powerlifter in my 30's - 40s. I haven't touched gear in 3 years as it is right now, I'm 50 and my testosterone was just under 600ng/dL just 3 weeks ago at 50yrs. I'm no outlier. I just scienced the shit out of everything beforehand and stayed athletic with diet and exercise. I've been a moderator on this board since 2005. If that makes me an outlier than y'all are crazy doing steroids at 18. That's like adding the frosting before the cookies are even baked. Being a hypogonadic male at your age makes you sort of an outlier. At least I hope it is. In any case, sorry to hear about your mistakes.

Besides, you still owe me a fucking apology for calling me an asshole!

Its the way you say things bro, you can’t really read a person’s tone through a message board so if you weren’t trying to be an asshole then I do apologize... I just thought it was so I was like “damn, why is this dude so aggressive right now?” Lol

As far as gaming the system, what do you mean by that?? To get scripted in general or that I’m playing with numbers to get more out of it for free???

Because I’m legit hypogonadal, I refuse to ever go back to that feeling again... I’m not interested in natural production anymore... As for the prescribed methods, they’re garbage, because even taking 70-100mg a week in one shot which puts be anywhere from 550-700 but then drops off and I feel like absolute ASS... Doing 10mg per day I stay around 550-600 but it’s a much more stable feeling and I don’t feel as good as 900 but I can definitely deal with it..


So you’re saying you didn’t touch PEDs until you were in your 30’s and managed to have a natural Test level of 1,000 and even at 50 have a natural level of 600??

I’m interested in knowing exactly what you did...

And it’s cool that you’re humble, but being 210lbs and super athletic as a 17 year old isn’t super common lol.. Seems like you had great genetics and a great base to begin with...

I was into martial arts (Muay Thai) at 17 and couldn’t put on muscle to save my life, I was 145lbs shredded at 5’7(ish) and I would eat whatever I wanted and of course, because my generation is more “instant gratification” than yours, I had seen a couple other high school friends do cycles and get big and that’s what I wanted.. I remember the days of “where are the bodies, steroids are perfectly fine” being ALL OVER THE FORUMS... And the thought of literally “Oh just do a cycle to get big then one to get ripped and do a PCT and you keep all your gains” lmao... There’s a thread on here from a while back about how some guys wish they never would’ve done AAS or would’ve waited, wish they would’ve been told so young that it’s probably a life long decision etc... I’m one of them.. I definitely wish I would’ve known better and waited.. But I wanted it NOW..

But yea bro, I’m surprised that you’re surprised... There’s TONS of guys on here who started AAS at 18-20 years old and are your age... And you’re honestly the FIRST guy I’ve ever seen on the forums and that I know of in person who did multiple cycles or blast/cruise and regained their natural testosterone... So again, it’s cool that you’re so humble and don’t think you’re special, but I definitely think you’re an outlier... lol

 

[maldorf]

I used to cycle on and off during the late 90s and early 2000s and seemed to recover fine. I never had any blood tests, but I never felt like my natural test level was low when I was off cycle. I learned later how you feel when testosterone is low, feels like shit. I dont think its that uncommon, especially how we would do it. We would do time on = time off. Do a short PCT right after. I was able to father kids too while on cylce, so I must not have been shut down entirely. After I did cycles and cruised in between is when I did not recover after my heart attack. Total test never got over about 40 or 50, thats it.

 

[Kaladryn]

I know. It's a bad situation. There have been decreasing levels for many years but not into hypogonadal territory (at least not yet). But they've been pulling feminized male fish (eggs and all) out of rivers here in the Northeast U.S. for decades. Phytoestrogens can be the only explanation for the fish but for human males:

According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.

All of the above.

TRT is for (or is supposed to be for) hypogonadal males, not young schmucks who just want to be on the high end of normal because they can't get laid. Then again, those 20 and 30 year-old adolescents would be using PEDs with or without a diagnosis. I agree with you. And calling it TRT is a joke. They're juicing, plain and simple.

There is a huge study that came out recently on the decline of average male testosterone levels, it's a shockingly massive decline in the last couple of decades, across all age groups too. I don't have the study on hand but I've seen it in the past.

Saying TRT is for hypogonadal males on this forum doesn't seem right, since we are cycling AAS and using TRT to bridge in most cases, or just using TRT for the extra bottle every couple months. If you are cycling and doing TRT/bridging between cycles, you absolutely should have a script for TRT.

 

[Kaladryn]

I used to cycle on and off during the late 90s and early 2000s and seemed to recover fine. I never had any blood tests, but I never felt like my natural test level was low when I was off cycle. I learned later how you feel when testosterone is low, feels like shit. I dont think its that uncommon, especially how we would do it. We would do time on = time off. Do a short PCT right after. I was able to father kids too while on cylce, so I must not have been shut down entirely. After I did cycles and cruised in between is when I did not recover after my heart attack. Total test never got over about 40 or 50, thats it.

I have never met a bodybuilder from the 90s or onward that actually did "time on=time off" I have heard people say that hundreds of times, but I have never once seen it actually in practice by someone that is even semi-serious about it, I mean just hearing about people going off completely was extremely rare back in the 90s. I did hear a lot of people say, "back in the 70s they used to do 'time on=time off' but based on what I know now, I don't buy that either.

 

[maldorf]

I have never met a bodybuilder from the 90s or onward that actually did "time on=time off" I have heard people say that hundreds of times, but I have never once seen it actually in practice by someone that is even semi-serious about it, I mean just hearing about people going off completely was extremely rare back in the 90s. I did hear a lot of people say, "back in the 70s they used to do 'time on=time off' but based on what I know now, I don't buy that either.

Well, myself and two other guys I knew well used to do that. We did not compete though. If we did a 12 week cycle, then we would be off for 12 weeks. The first few weeks of that would be PCT, so it wasnt quite 12 weeks off. Maybe you just never met anyone that followed through with it. I can see where guys competing for the trophy wouldnt follow it.