At what age do you think you will or should stop cycles?

[OuchThatHurts]

There is a huge study that came out recently on the decline of average male testosterone levels, it's a shockingly massive decline in the last couple of decades, across all age groups too. I don't have the study on hand but I've seen it in the past.

Saying TRT is for hypogonadal males on this forum doesn't seem right, since we are cycling AAS and using TRT to bridge in most cases, or just using TRT for the extra bottle every couple months. If you are cycling and doing TRT/bridging between cycles, you absolutely should have a script for TRT.

I don't know if that's the study SciAm was talking about but I read all about the problem in Scientific American last year. All I know is that it hasn't affected my family (at least not yet). Some countries are worse than others but it's worldwide. Birth rates of male children are decreasing. Worldwide by something like 150,000 per year. It's a large enough number that they're called "Lost Boys".

TRT is for hypogonadal males. Feels right for me to say it because it's a fact. Someone coming off a 6 month megablast is going to be hypogonadal. I never even heard of "bridging" until a few years ago on these forums. And bridging isn't replacement therapy it's just lower-dosed juicing. Which is cool, I'm not judging. I just don't do it that way. People, myself included, would very often say on here that they would go off and do PCT until they got their numbers back and then go back on. It seems to me that only in the last 10 years people (many people) have dropped all pretenses and now just straight up say, "Fuck it, I'm just going to stay on for good."

When I was in my younger days, I thought (at least I believed) everyone knew the day would eventually come when they would have to say goodbye to juice for good. And if you do it right, I believe you can. But if a little boost into the aging years helps and improves quality of living then sure, I'm all for it. But let's not kid ourselves. It's not anti-aging. It's pro-aging. There's 30-somethings on this board producing less testosterone than their mothers. Which reminds me of a funny thing I read on here years ago, made me LMAO, said, "I don't care that my nuts are shrinking. My thighs were crushing them anyway."

 

[buck]

I have never met a bodybuilder from the 90s or onward that actually did "time on=time off" I have heard people say that hundreds of times, but I have never once seen it actually in practice by someone that is even semi-serious about it, I mean just hearing about people going off completely was extremely rare back in the 90s. I did hear a lot of people say, "back in the 70s they used to do 'time on=time off' but based on what I know now, I don't buy that either.

The guys i trained with in the 90's usually went on cycle when they were getting ready to compete in BBing or PL.

 

[Reload]

I'm 50+ and recall Dr. Hatfield and a number of others suggesting that you cycle off for as long as you were on...so I did just that in the mid-late 80's. Coming off a larger cycle was a tapper. The entire cycle was a pyramid. This was "supposedly" how professional bodybuilders used AAS. Hated coming off! Always had pain in the joints, especially in my hands and then the loss in bodyweight. Kind of a blow to the ego but it was understood...you'd come off. My focus was 1 show/year. It was very obvious in the late 80's-early 90's with guys competing in 3-4 shows/year that they NEVER came off. Luckily college & powerlifting kept me from going down that road.

 

[Kaladryn]

The guys i trained with in the 90's usually went on cycle when they were getting ready to compete in BBing or PL.

While I'm sure this was true for some, this is 70s/early 80s methodology, by the 90s, most people were staying on all the time or bridging. I think Dan Duchaine really changed when he recommended not going off because 'that is when all the side effects happened'.

 

[Kaladryn]

The entire cycle was a pyramid.

This was going on until fairly recently, maybe 10-15 years ago most pyramiding seemed to stop. I personally think a) going off or doing true TRT doses for part of the year and, b) doing pyramid cycles are keys to health that have been lost. I feel this is the main thing causing bodybuilders to die younger than they used.

 

[Reload]

This was going on until fairly recently, maybe 10-15 years ago most pyramiding seemed to stop. I personally think a) going off or doing true TRT doses for part of the year and, b) doing pyramid cycles are keys to health that have been lost. I feel this is the main thing causing bodybuilders to die younger than they used.

Agree! Prior to the late 80's everything was either from a US pharmacy or Mexico. I grew like a weed on that stuff.
Really looking forward to getting on legit TRT in September and get my total/free back into the upper therapeutic range!

 

[Flex500]

Too many guys in their 30's here on TRT. Either testosterone levels are unusually really low due to environmental factors (plastics, pollution, etc) or something else is going on. Are the 30-somethings here all suffering from hypogonadism or hypopituitarism or is this just gaming the system to obtain legal AAS? Up until my 30's, the very few times I had male hormone panels, my testosterone levels were always approx 700ng/dL. I kept one which was 1027 for bragging rights. But during my 30's, my T levels dropped significantly and unexpectedly enough for me to be diagnosed with hypopituitarism as my GH levels were also low. I had Rx's from legitimate doctors for testosterone and GH (not these questionable anti-aging/rejuvenation clinics). But I have to say, if it's legit happening this often, it's either 1) a rather alarming trend or 2) something that always existed but simply went undiagnosed.

One thing I have not seen is any literature or studies that show large differences in metabolic clearance rates (MCR) of endogenous testosterone. I would attribute much of the disparity in MCRs relating to exogenous testosterone injections to the simple mechanics of absorption, from needle to receptor; whether it be greater vascularity within the muscle, a poor injection, high/low levels of intramuscular adipose tissue, varying levels of esterase, and the like. For example, doing a delt injection and then training delts a couple hours later is obviously going to mobilize the solution faster than at rest.

@Kaladryn maybe on to something with mimicking your natural pulsatile testosterone production with smaller daily early morning injections. It would have to be a very short ester though like propionate or acetate or perhaps non-esterified testosterone like suspension or TNE being best of all. I'd also like to hear or read more about the E2 relation to T as I've always considered it a fine line to walk between too much E2 vs too little. Specifically, the T: E2 ratio. With high doses of testosterone and/or analogues, I've always performed better going by ratio where if my T and anabolics levels were high, having higher E2 than normal was better for me performance-wise (gym, feeling of wellbeing, or the bedroom) than lower levels (thus, higher ratio). At those high levels, bloods are pretty much easily wrecked anyway so obviously shorter durations of time in those high ranges (a few months or less) would seem beneficial to overall longterm health. Maintaing a good lipid profile during that time would seems difficult. @Kaladryn , you said it would be possible to maintain decent bloodwork in the 2-3gm+ range earlier. Can you flesh out what that might look like? E.g. keeping HCT under control, balancing E2, while maintaing decent lipid profile. Thanks.

Great thread, BTW

I think for many of us we started dabbling in PED's and our test levels recovered to a level that just wasn't cutting it. I ran track in college, was a sprinter, etc. Quite muscular, 185 lbs and the two times I had my test levels checked pre ped's my total test was over 700 both times. After PED's I really have not been able to get up over 250-350, and more importantly had symptoms/issues

I do now come off 3-4 months and use HCG but that is artificially pumping up my test levels. Hell my total test is 900+ right now but if I dropped the HCG it would bottom out.

I've come off for 8 months after and aggressive pct but my test just never recovered. I'm also older so I don't expect it to be 800 on it's own.

There are two distinctly different conversations though; you have these group here who have blasted for years, never come off etc, and that has had an impact on hormone profile and then you have the general population where male test levels appear to be deteriorating and more men are on true trt.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I think for many of us we started dabbling in PED's and our test levels recovered to a level that just wasn't cutting it. I ran track in college, was a sprinter, etc. Quite muscular, 185 lbs and the two times I had my test levels checked pre ped's my total test was over 700 both times. After PED's I really have not been able to get up over 250-350, and more importantly had symptoms/issues

I do now come off 3-4 months and use HCG but that is artificially pumping up my test levels. Hell my total test is 900+ right now but if I dropped the HCG it would bottom out.

I've come off for 8 months after and aggressive pct but my test just never recovered. I'm also older so I don't expect it to be 800 on it's own.

There are two distinctly different conversations though; you have these group here who have blasted for years, never come off etc, and that has had an impact on hormone profile and then you have the general population where male test levels appear to be deteriorating and more men are on true trt.

I hear you. I'm beginning to see that now. If I was to do TRT again, I would probably just do HCG. Either that or follow Kaladryn's way and just do replacement low dose every morning or maybe right before bed. I just assumed everyone eventually recovered with time. It's now obvious to me this is not the case. I would see threads along these lines and think 'these guys are just being impatient'. Or maybe it's that they actually did fully recover but the memory of their strength and performance while on was still fresh in their minds and then their true normal T levels felt low or 'bad'. Where it wasn't so much 'bad' as simply 'not as good'. I might have to do an about face on that train of thought and try to be more sympathetic to not just the physical numbers but the psychological game PEDs have on a guy. Obviously, in an ideal world, I would wish every guy out there would have supraphysiological performance and T all the time. But that is pure fiction.

I know guys are very particular, as well they should be, about their lipids but maintaining testicular mass while on with HCG and nudging natural production back with Tamoxifen or Aromasyn (or both) for a few months is how I did it. Having lipids out of range for a few months seemed preferable to me than years of bad lipids and feeling like shit with low T and tiny balls. But I didn't get in this game until later in life when my own performance began slipping so maybe I am an outlier, as NEMSZ said.

Another split I see here is between guys using AAS to enhance performance and others it's more a cosmetic thing. They like the abs and increased musculature. Some are both but it seems to lean one side or the other. For me it was always about driving myself harder whether in the wilderness on a mountain somewhere or slinging more steel in the gym. Add to that the continual worldwide decrease in T production you mentioned, and the program into every kid they have to look like an Abercrombie model with abs and you have the perfect recipe for a cottage industry.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

This was going on until fairly recently, maybe 10-15 years ago most pyramiding seemed to stop. I personally think a) going off or doing true TRT doses for part of the year and, b) doing pyramid cycles are keys to health that have been lost. I feel this is the main thing causing bodybuilders to die younger than they used.

I remember many years ago reading one of the handbooks (can't remember which) and it had all these illustrations of triangles and other shapes of different cycles. There was the pyramid, the ramp up, the start heavy and wean off (ramp down), there was the blitz, and a few others. All with varying degrees of 'danger' or classes as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Seems the idea of cycling in general has just been thrown out and people just stay on year in and year out just varying their doses. But you're right. Seems to be a relatively new phenomenon vs the old school thinking of even just 10 years ago.

 

[maldorf]

I hear you. I'm beginning to see that now. If I was to do TRT again, I would probably just do HCG. Either that or follow Kaladryn's way and just do replacement low dose every morning or maybe right before bed. I just assumed everyone eventually recovered with time. It's now obvious to me this is not the case. I would see threads along these lines and think 'these guys are just being impatient'. Or maybe it's that they actually did fully recover but the memory of their strength and performance while on was still fresh in their minds and then their true normal T levels felt low or 'bad'. Where it wasn't so much 'bad' as simply 'not as good'. I might have to do an about face on that train of thought and try to be more sympathetic to not just the physical numbers but the psychological game PEDs have on a guy. Obviously, in an ideal world, I would wish every guy out there would have supraphysiological performance and T all the time. But that is pure fiction.

I know guys are very particular, as well they should be, about their lipids but maintaining testicular mass while on with HCG and nudging natural production back with Tamoxifen or Aromasyn (or both) for a few months is how I did it. Having lipids out of range for a few months seemed preferable to me than years of bad lipids and feeling like shit with low T and tiny balls. But I didn't get in this game until later in life when my own performance began slipping so maybe I am an outlier, as NEMSZ said.

Another split I see here is between guys using AAS to enhance performance and others it's more a cosmetic thing. They like the abs and increased musculature. Some are both but it seems to lean one side or the other. For me it was always about driving myself harder whether in the wilderness on a mountain somewhere or slinging more steel in the gym. Add to that the continual worldwide decrease in T production you mentioned, and the program into every kid they have to look like an Abercrombie model with abs and you have the perfect recipe for a cottage industry.

I can attest personally to how it is very possible to permanently ruin your natural testosterone production. After my heart attack I went off everything for almost 12 months ,and my total testosterone never got up over about 50. I think that's about the level of a woman. My endocrinologist at the time I think was very surprised. It was a terrible experience, especially to do while I was recovering from a major heart attack

 

[maldorf]

I remember many years ago reading one of the handbooks (can't remember which) and it had all these illustrations of triangles and other shapes of different cycles. There was the pyramid, the ramp up, the start heavy and wean off (ramp down), there was the blitz, and a few others. All with varying degrees of 'danger' or classes as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Seems the idea of cycling in general has just been thrown out and people just stay on year in and year out just varying their doses. But you're right. Seems to be a relatively new phenomenon vs the old school thinking of even just 10 years ago.

The first steroid I ever used was back around 1987. Got a single bottle of Ciba Dbol. I was told to use it in a pyramid fashion. 5 mg tablets. We would take 5mg, 10 mg,up to 25mg/ day and then back down again toward the end. I had just one bottle.

In days where I took multiple tabs, I would spread them out equally throughout the day.

 

[buck]

While I'm sure this was true for some, this is 70s/early 80s methodology, by the 90s, most people were staying on all the time or bridging. I think Dan Duchaine really changed when he recommended not going off because 'that is when all the side effects happened'.

I still see many people even now that only show up to get ready for the summer and are obviously on AS and don't see them the rest of the year. Or i watch others shrink down and get softer. And if they are still on anything then it is a sad situation as they look like they barely workout if at all. I am sure there are guys that have stayed on indefinitely since the the good old days. I remember talking to the average gym rat in the 80's and 90's and how scared they were about the side effects as there was little info other then talking to the big guy. The internet has opened up the ability to acquire knowledge.

 

[maldorf]

I still see many people even now that only show up to get ready for the summer and are obviously on AS and don't see them the rest of the year. Or i watch others shrink down and get softer. And if they are still on anything then it is a sad situation as they look like they barely workout if at all. I am sure there are guys that have stayed on indefinitely since the the good old days. I remember talking to the average gym rat in the 80's and 90's and how scared they were about the side effects as there was little info other then talking to the big guy. The internet has opened up the ability to acquire knowledge.

It is a bit ironic really. Back in the 80s when there was no internet, we were all scared of the side effects and risk to health. Now when information spreads fast and most of the world knows in less than 24 hours that a bodybuilder has died, guys seem to be less concerned about the dangers of steroids. Using more and more.

I think it comes down to availability. Perhaps if steroids had been as easily assessable back then, use would have been much the same.

 

[buck]

It is a bit ironic really. Back in the 80s when there was no internet, we were all scared of the side effects and risk to health. Now when information spreads fast and most of the world knows in less than 24 hours that a bodybuilder has died, guys seem to be less concerned about the dangers of steroids. Using more and more.

I think it comes down to availability. Perhaps if steroids had been as easily assessable back then, use would have been much the same.

That is part if not the main reason i am sure. But now we also know even more about how to take even more drugs to deal with the side effects. And feel safer about it.

 

[maldorf]

That is part if not the main reason i am sure. But now we also know even more about how to take even more drugs to deal with the side effects. And feel safer about it.

Yes, that's another factor. The false sense of security from taking ancillaries and doing your bloodwork. Sure it helps, but in some cases it doesn't prevent tragedy.

 

[Kaladryn]

I still see many people even now that only show up to get ready for the summer and are obviously on AS and don't see them the rest of the year. Or i watch others shrink down and get softer. And if they are still on anything then it is a sad situation as they look like they barely workout if at all. I am sure there are guys that have stayed on indefinitely since the the good old days. I remember talking to the average gym rat in the 80's and 90's and how scared they were about the side effects as there was little info other then talking to the big guy. The internet has opened up the ability to acquire knowledge.

Agreed, but there has always been a big difference between your 'average gym rat' and the 'bodybuilder for life' types. The internet has increased the amount of information, but it has also resurrected a lot of outdated information and false information. A good example is training methods: all the old training methods have come back, even the ones we decided were wrong at some point (either through science, studies, or trial and error), and it's very hard for a novice to differentiate good information from bad information precisely because it's so easy to acquire, but if you had to work harder for the information you might uncover some of this. The same is true for drug knowledge.

 

[Reload]

Here's an interesting article that has risen out of the ether in regards to changing opinions in PED use.
Hope this doesn't break forum rules as it's from another forum?

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/bizarre-look-at-steroid-contradictions/

 

[beast405]

I'm 42 and never go over 300mg on anything. I'll usually cycle on 300 test and 200 or 300mg of primo or mast along with my 4 units of hgh. I like to. stay lean and around 8-9% year around and it works for me.

If that’s you in your avatar you are a beast brother. Keep it up !

 

[lookslikesausage]

I bought William Lewellyn's book Anabolics 2000 in 2000 or 2001. My friend who I trained with definitely cycled more like the popular practice in the 80's but would also switch out drugs for new ones. He'd start with something like Anadrol & Test and ramp up and then build up to a highest dose and then he'd switch to less androgenic drugs and taper down and eventually come off. He claimed that Charles Poliquin designed this method. I read Anabolics 2000 very closely and William Llewellyn was the first guy I ever read who was completely against tapering/pyramiding. He used to advocate straight doses w/no tapering off for the whole duration of the cycle and then Dave Palumbo also advocated this as well (Dave also advocated very long cycles). So yeah...I grew up with Llewellyn's straight blast method. Didn't matter much for me; I suffered like hell coming off, even with a PCT. Depression was awful and between watching my gains go down the tube and the hormonal lull eventually I called it a day because I hated coming off so much.

 

[thethinker48]

I personally think you can typically get away with a lot in your 20's.

Less but still resilient if you are not outright reckless in your 30's.

I advise people after 35 as they approach 40 to really get conservative and smart about things or have a game plan in place to only be aggressive for short periods of time and less often throughout the year.


I started to get pretty conservative around the age of 28/29 and if I dabbled again in any sort of cycle in the future - it certainly would be different than the cycle I would have run in my mid to late 20's. Then again I have to tell people around 50 sometimes to stop using orals every time they cycle and quit using tren and it seems to fall on deaf ears. The information is out there if people look for it and pay attention. What I have illustrated here is not what I knew 10 or 17+ years ago when I started. If I knew then what I know now..I would have really gone a lot harder in my early and mid 20s but I do not regret anything because I have been pretty healthy along the way and had great opportunities while experiencing things I never would have otherwise - had I not been in this sport/industry/endeavor.

I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here for discussion sake

I think you actually accrue the damage in your 20s and 30s, and it just shows up in your 40s and 50s

We can "get away" with gear use even to a high level in our 20s, but that getting away basically means there hasn't been a thrombosis or enough decline in kidney function to throw an alarm. It doesn't mean that the plaque accumulation, the atheromatosis, and the damage to the glomeruli isn't slowly occurring on a yearly basis

And in some individuals; scaling back at 35 or 40 might not be enough; that time clock of a neuro-cardiovascular event might just be coming nonetheless

The most uncertain part of this is; akin to life; you have an element of uncertainty in there (even with everything done properly). Perfect bloodwork, perfect scans; and not such a perfect outcome if you had some genetic risk factor in there. And the person or their family will never know what could have been done better if that tragedy did fall upon an individual. That's the scary part in all of this

I guess it's better to just not play the game altogether if you want to completely avoid the black swan. But all of us like the game too much to quit