Basal use(Victor Black), proviron question.

[drksanctuary]

Hi guys,

The following is part of basal use for Victor Black:

Total 400-500mg AAS per week(test/primo). As much test as you can tolerate and then use a low dose of DHT/primo to control E2.

Now my question is; he also recommends taking 25-50mg of proviron with this, but what is the benefit of doing that(because you are already controlling E2 with primo)?

He does it mostly for libido and says it's optional on his model. It's not for shbg and the mast/primo isn't for e2 control. You'd really be better off asking him instead of other people why they think he does it.

 

[totalrecomp]

Victor Black (and similarly, Joe Jeffrey, who comes from the same school overall) are fans of stuffing proviron into every cycle to, as they put it "alter the androgen to oestrogen ratio".

In short, as mentioned above, the idea is to bind to SHBG, freeing up testosterone to bind to AR, allowing you to have a similar ratio of free androgens to estrogen at a lower total AAS load.

The concept being that if you can achieve a similar Androgen/Estrogen ratio with less total use of Test/DHT-compound, you will have similar anabolic benefit with less downside/toxicity/etc.

This is actually one of the few things I disagree strongly with both of them on, and have actually debated Jeffrey on somewhat extensively.

I'm of the belief that the action of SHBG is still very poorly understood, and that the old school concept of crushing SHBG being inherently good is highly outdated and archaic. I strongly believe that the more we learn about SHBG (much of which we do understand but has been ignored by the BB community for some reason), the more the pendulum will swing towards preserving SHBG to a point. Or at the very least, away from purposefully crushing it.


There's also an underpinning of bitterness and jealousy towards the fact that methods of PED use are evolving rapidly, and towards the people who are pushing that evolution, especially if they're achieving any level of fame or fortune from it.

Regarding SHBG I think NOT CRUSHING is actually more important for those not using gear. From my understanding one of the main purposes of SHBG is to sustain a "reserve supply" of hormones that are resistant to metabolism and thus excretion. So were SHBG to disappear the supply of test would rapidly be metabolized and excreted. Would the body be able to sustain endo production fast enough to offset this? WTF knows. Now in an enhanced guy with depots of test cyp/en trickling in around the clock perhaps lowering shbg becomes less problematic???? As long as you keep a steady supply of input(test shots) you SHOULD be ok if the free test is being "processed" quickly? Just thinking out loud with my keyboard here.

I do find it interesting and potentially an issue with lowering SHBG you will also free up E and for guys who preach zero AI all the time perhaps this should be considered more often.

At the end of the day people want everything to be baby talk, ie this is GOOD, and this is BAD, and as most should know by know this is FAR TOO SIMPLISTIC when dealing with the human body and introducing poly pharmacy.

 

[BLang]

He does it mostly for libido and says it's optional on his model. It's not for shbg and the mast/primo isn't for e2 control. You'd really be better off asking him instead of other people why they think he does it.

He likes it for libido and talks about it but is not the main reason. Anyway, directly from the horse's mouth:

Here's him literally saying that it's used to manage the androgen to oestrogen ratio, and says nothing about libido:

"

"

From this website:

"I typically start Masteron at 100mg a week for Older Men but here its used for Prolactin and Estrogen Modulation and improvement in Sexual Function"

 

[BLang]

Regarding SHBG I think NOT CRUSHING is actually more important for those not using gear. From my understanding one of the main purposes of SHBG is to sustain a "reserve supply" of hormones that are resistant to metabolism and thus excretion. So were SHBG to disappear the supply of test would rapidly be metabolized and excreted. Would the body be able to sustain endo production fast enough to offset this? WTF knows. Now in an enhanced guy with depots of test cyp/en trickling in around the clock perhaps lowering shbg becomes less problematic???? As long as you keep a steady supply of input(test shots) you SHOULD be ok if the free test is being "processed" quickly? Just thinking out loud with my keyboard here.

I do find it interesting and potentially an issue with lowering SHBG you will also free up E and for guys who preach zero AI all the time perhaps this should be considered more often.

At the end of the day people want everything to be baby talk, ie this is GOOD, and this is BAD, and as most should know by know this is FAR TOO SIMPLISTIC when dealing with the human body and introducing poly pharmacy.

This is a very interesting concept.

I think what you're saying would ring true if all test (bound/unbound/etc) was the same, but it's not. I think the understanding that its to sustain a "reserve supply" is outdated and here's why:

There's emerging science showing that SHBG-bound testosterone can in fact bind to AR via SHBG-receptor complexes throughout the body. Which, intuitively makes a whole lot more sense than SHBG just being this random boogeyman that goes around stealing the viability of our test levels.

At a basic level it appears to act in some capacity to add selectivity to a person's total testosterone. What are the consequences (positive or negative) from upsetting this natural balance? It's very difficult to say.

My gut tells me that as our understanding of this dynamic evolves, we'll find both acute and long term health benefits in attempting to maintain SHBG within reason (obv, blasting tons of gear at a certain point some people will have crushed SHBG regardless, etc.).

I can also forsee a scenario in the future where recombinant SHBG is widely available and used as part of both basic hormone optimization protocols and bodybuilder stacks.

 

[drksanctuary]

He likes it for libido and talks about it but is not the main reason. Anyway, directly from the horse's mouth:

Here's him literally saying that it's used to manage the androgen to oestrogen ratio, and says nothing about libido:

"

"

From this website:

"I typically start Masteron at 100mg a week for Older Men but here its used for Prolactin and Estrogen Modulation and improvement in Sexual Function"

Yeah he's talked about being able to slightly modulate the a/e ratio but said that it's in there mostly because most of his client base is older and it's "dynamite in the bedroom" for them.

"If you follow my content regularly you would know that I am an advocate of the use of Proviron – Mesterolone (1-methyl dihydrotestosterone) for Older Men."

 

[xpoc]

He does it mostly for libido and says it's optional on his model. It's not for shbg and the mast/primo isn't for e2 control. You'd really be better off asking him instead of other people why they think he does it.

this is not sound advice. if you ask him, he will ridicule you for not paying for his master class site. i was considering joining just to learn more about the pharma side of things, but his instagram posts are so hostile and lacking of any semblance of organization i figure his paid site would be in similar disarray. even the smartest people in the world don't make good teachers unless they can put their thoughts into words and present those words in an organized manner so the students can digest the content.

 

[drksanctuary]

this is not sound advice. if you ask him, he will ridicule you for not paying for his master class site. i was considering joining just to learn more about the pharma side of things, but his instagram posts are so hostile and lacking of any semblance of organization i figure his paid site would be in similar disarray. even the smartest people in the world don't make good teachers unless they can put their thoughts into words and present those words in an organized manner so the students can digest the content.

You're not wrong but if he wants to follow someone's model but doesn't understand it and can't ask them about it, then he should probably follow a different model.

 

[totalrecomp]

this is not sound advice. if you ask him, he will ridicule you for not paying for his master class site. i was considering joining just to learn more about the pharma side of things, but his instagram posts are so hostile and lacking of any semblance of organization i figure his paid site would be in similar disarray. even the smartest people in the world don't make good teachers unless they can put their thoughts into words and present those words in an organized manner so the students can digest the content.

I think the underlying issue with VB is the deluge of attacks he received upfront putting him on a defensive footing from the jump. I never had any run ins with him as I prefer to sit back and observe vs shooting off posts on IG, in reality I type and delete more than I post, here as well. So from the beginning he has almost postured himself with a "Me against the world siege mentality."

It's too bad as I personally can tell when a poster is genuinely interested and asking for clarity vs the "trolls" just tying to call BS on him. Unfortunately I think his ability to decipher between the two remains lacking.

 

[TheRoid]

I would choose your gurus more wisely.

This is certainly not meant to express my appreciation to him, but alas there's much worse out there.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I think the underlying issue with VB is the deluge of attacks he received upfront putting him on a defensive footing from the jump. I never had any run ins with him as I prefer to sit back and observe vs shooting off posts on IG, in reality I type and delete more than I post, here as well. So from the beginning he has almost postured himself with a "Me against the world siege mentality."

It's too bad as I personally can tell when a poster is genuinely interested and asking for clarity vs the "trolls" just tying to call BS on him. Unfortunately I think his ability to decipher between the two remains lacking.

Agree 100%.
I wouldn’t necessarily call them attacks though. He had been somewhat thought of as a guru, he came here expecting to be patted on the back some and instead, he had quite a few challenges to his models and theories. That happens in any and every field of research. You are feeling great about yourself, you show up and people have been doubting your stuff. Be prepared to debate and explain. He was not, at alllll. We have other ridiculous smart posters in here and when asked to explain certain points or studies, he could not and got flustered and aggressive.

 

[bellicose]

I’ve found that taking 250mgs of masteron per week is great for mood/libido and just feeling “tight”
I never really noticed anything from proviron but a little masteron added to a light test dose makes me feel like I’m on 1gm of test without the bloat.

 

[totalrecomp]

Agree 100%.
I wouldn’t necessarily call them attacks though. He had been somewhat thought of as a guru, he came here expecting to be patted on the back some and instead, he had quite a few challenges to his models and theories. That happens in any and every field of research. You are feeling great about yourself, you show up and people have been doubting your stuff. Be prepared to debate and explain. He was not, at alllll. We have other ridiculous smart posters in here and when asked to explain certain points or studies, he could not and got flustered and aggressive.

I agree. He fields almost all inquiries as if they are incoming cruise missiles. It's too bad in the end as I DO think many of his approaches have validity for many average users.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I agree. He fields almost all inquiries as if they are incoming cruise missiles. It's too bad in the end as I DO think many of his approaches have validity for many average users.

Totally agree. Although some of his stuff is questionable, he would've been a great addition here and i think he's a smart dude.
I would never fully brand him a quack or a fake guru, i just think he picks and chooses certain arguments and studies to reference.
Just shows me that guys like Dr Scott and Stewie for that matter are rareee.

 

[danieltx]

Totally agree. Although some of his stuff is questionable, he would've been a great addition here and i think he's a smart dude.
I would never fully brand him a quack or a fake guru, i just think he picks and chooses certain arguments and studies to reference.
Just shows me that guys like Dr Scott and Stewie for that matter are rareee.

I hope @Stewie is doing ok. He hasn't been active here for quite some time and I recall one of his last posts mentioned some health issues a family member was dealing with.