Bio-identical hormones (test, gh, insulin, igf)

[Hammer4]

Threads like this are why I love Pro muscle. I have some research to do on insulin!

 

[goback2013]

Well I'll be damned. I have never heard this before. See? Almost 20 years on this board and I'm still learning something new every now and then.

Yeah. That was a great read.

 

[LATS]

Bio identical safety only makes sense if we are talking trt range etc.. then there is a component of " safe".. the body does recognize these compounds and utilize.. BUT.. once we go to a point of supra doses and having to add ancillary compounds to reduce conversion etc we have lost much of the safe component.

Then the issue becomes is it safer to add other compounds that do not convert to estro or dht or just keep ramping up the " Bio identical " compounds.. ?

Test in supra doses does not effect lipids near as bad as many other non Bio identical compounds .. thats true.. but now add in aromasin etc to reduce supra levels of estro and we can tank lipids in even low doses.. so does one add masteron? Primo?.. if so these compounds have been shown to negatively impact lipids also.. its kind of a catch -22..

That being said I know that many on the middle east boards who have ties to oxygen gym and others state the most of the competitors go to straight test , gh and slin in the off season as they feel it's " safer" to take a break from the other compounds.. but without blood work comparing the two its a guessing game

 

[totalrecomp]

@Type-IIx I propose we shift from "bio-identical" to "minimally modified compounds," what say you?

 

[Type-IIx]

Are you suggesting that our evolutionary biology has adapted to cause GH and IGF-1 levels to drop with age to prolong our lives by avoiding cancer? Is this your personal theory or is this cited somewhere?

Oh, brother, there's comprehensive scholarship on this. PubMed query, "IGF-1 longevity." This paper, for example: Barbieri M, Bonafè M, Franceschi C, Paolisso G. Insulin/IGF-I-signaling pathway: an evolutionarily conserved mechanism of longevity from yeast to humans. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1064-71. doi: 10.1152/ajpendo.00296.2003. PMID: 14534077.

I think it's far more likely than not that yes, there is an evolutionarily conversed mechanism of longevity in mammals modulated by IGF-I signaling, characterized by reduced serum IGF-I to promote lifespan as we age.

Cross-sectional/observational evidence abounds, that large sized animals including humans are more susceptible to early mortality (because of more cells basically), therefore greater risks of mutagenesis and such. Tall people die significantly earlier than short, pygmy populations have lifespans many years beyond the norm, etc.

Have you never heard of the use of use of Metformin and caloric restriction to promote longevity, based on IGF-I & mTOR being viewed as anathema to longevity? I mean, 99/100 papers that I read view activation of the IGF-I cascade/mTOR activity as positively disasterous.

You're usually Johnny On The Spot with references but this sounds more like opinion and speculation than science. And the free and bound forms of IGF-1, wouldn't these binding agents also apply to rhIGF-1 and LR3 as well?

Yeah, basically anything that increases IGF-I activity is anathema to longevity.

I agree with the premise of your argument to a degree and I'm not suggesting the massive assault of supra-physiological doses of what really are essentially bio-identical hormones is a good health step forward but certainly you must agree that these bio-identical forms of human hormones and peptides are not equivalently as offensive and aggressive as their analogous counterparts in replacement dosages for which the analogs have no "replacement" dosages bc there is no endogenous level to replace. My counterpoint is only that engineered forms of these molecules cannot be (or have not yet been shown to be) superior to their natural and/or manufactured bio-identical counterparts. In fact isn't this the very reason for isolating these exact chemicals in the first place?


I'm just going to disregard the financial point as a misstep and just move past it. Here, you seem to be suggesting the opposite of your other claim in that recombinant human insulin (e.g. Humulin R) can "fairly be described as" bio-identical only that the pharmacodynamics of an injection vs endogenous insulin release are not analogous. You're making my counterpoint argument for me here, yes? At any rate, again agreed. This is precisely why I use R preps over their shorter and longer-acting analogous counterparts. Not because those preps have no merit but rather that R preps seem to have a more natural glucose clearing response curve.

I think that "bio-identical" hormones are a basic fiction, and that's OK, because chemical modifications to T, GH, IGF-I, & insulin, all provide enhancements for various applications (e.g., Rimobolan is a superior drug for treatment resistant cancer than testosterone).

Now this one really leaves me scratching my head. While testosterone cypionate, as one example, is a prodrug to testosterone, once esterase has done it's work, the remaining testosterone molecule is of course biologically identical even though we might consider it a metabolite of test cyp at that point. Again, the only difference is in the pharmacodynamics of an injection vs endogenous release of the hormone. Or are you saying that replacement levels are more deleterious bc of some action on aromatase? Clean this up for me, please. I'm not sure what is implied here.

I mean, if your view is that eventually a prodrug to testosterone yields testosterone, I of course agree. But I think there's a clear distinction between in vivo testosterone & testosterone enanthate. The first is bioidentical, the second is a delivery mechanism for T. I love T, almost always use it - almost - I prefer orals only without exogenous T sometimes (since exogenous T is so suppressive, and the 17AAs are virtually nonsuppressive and just additive to endogenous T). Huge myth to say otherwise. Major perils of exogenous test include suppression of gonadotropins and HPG axis suppression, aromatization to estradiol, 5AR in prostate, etc. You probably know all this, but the point is that there weren't two decades of industrial-scale international efforts by pharmaceutical corporations to develop testosterone alternatives for naught - it's because many derivatives are better at non-TRT applications than testosterone is.

I'm not ruffled at all. I love these discussions. I'm just asking you to expand on this a bit. I can't believe I missed this yesterday. This all seems counter to previous assertions you've made which were quite convincing indeed. But here, this seems more argumentative than revelatory. (Which normally your work certainly is.)

Thought-provoking post though as usual, my friend. Edit: Additionally, I want to add that I hope you enter the research field and are published. And I mean that as sincerely and iterally as I can. Your research, assertions, even your vocabulary are among the best I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot. Even superior to many of the published articles we cite.

 

[Type-IIx]

I see what you are saying.

Even though, 'safe roids' like mast & primo are wrecking more and more people's lipids on even low 100-200mg doses(let alone tren, eq etc.). In that case, test only(even higher) would be the safest bet.

Permitting that E2 benefits lipids & nonaromatizable drugs like thesedon't aromatize, I seriously doubt that 100 - 200 mg/week of Mast or Rimo consistently "wrecks lipids." A couple instances of dyslipidemia in guys that occasionally bridge between their 3-4X/year blasts with 100-200 mg mast or primo + whatever else they're on can hardly be considered valid models for the actions of these drugs.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

That being said I know that many on the middle east boards who have ties to oxygen gym and others state the most of the competitors go to straight test , gh and slin in the off season as they feel it's " safer" to take a break from the other compounds.. but without blood work comparing the two its a guessing game

Can you expand on this or provide some links please? I've heard this too... that their "secret" is just megadosing test and then using "standard" dosages of gh and insulin.

 

[luki7788]

Can you expand on this or provide some links please? I've heard this too... that their "secret" is just megadosing test and then using "standard" dosages of gh and insulin.

I wouldn't agree with that - I have two friends who are coaching with Ahmed Askar and they both had a 5-6 aas cocktail all offseason, only they didn't use insulin at all

 

[dany23x]

I wouldn't agree with that - I have two friends who are coaching with Ahmed Askar and they both had a 5-6 aas cocktail all offseason, only they didn't use insulin at all

in kuwait they prepare like this, there is an Italian who has been there for many years and has seen the preparation of winklar and Curry, in Off season there were 6/7 products, all together, all at the maximum dosage

askar in the off season makes you eat a lot and above all a lot of red meat every day

 

[luki7788]

yes 6-7 meals, high protein and often an extra cheat meal for the night

+anadrol all offseason

 

[yousef12O]

what doses in total do they use in kuwait the progress they make over there is ridiculous?

 

[yousef12O]

Reagan grimes mentioned one time that special doctors inject the bodybuilders over there

 

[dany23x]

Reagan grimes mentioned one time that special doctors inject the bodybuilders over there

so much GH that they get from Iran and Egypt exclusively from Pharmacy

they have a trusted Egyptian in charge of sourcing the best existing products, in kuwait nothing is fake nothing is underdosed

 

[dany23x]

as far as health is concerned, in the past a camel crew bodybuilder who after a preparation ended up in dialysis was kicked out of the gym as a sort of "disgrace", there is only a very strong drug culture and training only with machines, 2 workouts a day, sauna, relaxation, ready meals and lots of grams with GH and insulin

in kuwait there is nothing else , in summer there are 60 degrees in the shade , in winter about 30 ; other than that there is nothing else

they have a different culture , many machines in the gym are Panatta , but they erase the writing as a sign of shame of depending on the West ;

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Oh, brother, there's comprehensive scholarship on this. PubMed query, "IGF-1 longevity." This paper, for example: Barbieri M, Bonafè M, Franceschi C, Paolisso G. Insulin/IGF-I-signaling pathway: an evolutionarily conserved mechanism of longevity from yeast to humans. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1064-71. doi: 10.1152/ajpendo.00296.2003. PMID: 14534077.

I think it's far more likely than not that yes, there is an evolutionarily conversed mechanism of longevity in mammals modulated by IGF-I signaling, characterized by reduced serum IGF-I to promote lifespan as we age.

Cross-sectional/observational evidence abounds, that large sized animals including humans are more susceptible to early mortality (because of more cells basically), therefore greater risks of mutagenesis and such. Tall people die significantly earlier than short, pygmy populations have lifespans many years beyond the norm, etc.

Have you never heard of the use of use of Metformin and caloric restriction to promote longevity, based on IGF-I & mTOR being viewed as anathema to longevity? I mean, 99/100 papers that I read view activation of the IGF-I cascade/mTOR activity as positively disasterous.

Yeah, basically anything that increases IGF-I activity is anathema to longevity.

I think that "bio-identical" hormones are a basic fiction, and that's OK, because chemical modifications to T, GH, IGF-I, & insulin, all provide enhancements for various applications (e.g., Rimobolan is a superior drug for treatment resistant cancer than testosterone).

I mean, if your view is that eventually a prodrug to testosterone yields testosterone, I of course agree. But I think there's a clear distinction between in vivo testosterone & testosterone enanthate. The first is bioidentical, the second is a delivery mechanism for T. I love T, almost always use it - almost - I prefer orals only without exogenous T sometimes (since exogenous T is so suppressive, and the 17AAs are virtually nonsuppressive and just additive to endogenous T). Huge myth to say otherwise. Major perils of exogenous test include suppression of gonadotropins and HPG axis suppression, aromatization to estradiol, 5AR in prostate, etc. You probably know all this, but the point is that there weren't two decades of industrial-scale international efforts by pharmaceutical corporations to develop testosterone alternatives for naught - it's because many derivatives are better at non-TRT applications than testosterone is.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Well done.. Well done.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

yes 6-7 meals, high protein and often an extra cheat meal for the night

+anadrol all offseason

How do people take adrol all offseason and maintain appetite? Is there some secret compound or supplement to take orals and not have one's appetite get crushed? or do they just use inject anadrol?

 

[yousef12O]

some people take it before sleep to avoid the appetite suppression during the day

 

[LATS]

I wouldn't agree with that - I have two friends who are coaching with Ahmed Askar and they both had a 5-6 aas cocktail all offseason, only they didn't use insulin at all

I agree.. this gentleman was talking their " health phase " after shows .. I was referring to health phase and what woukd be safer.. he says he simply switches to straight test gh with a little slin put in and out. But no he's not coached by Askar..

 

[luki7788]

How do people take adrol all offseason and maintain appetite? Is there some secret compound or supplement to take orals and not have one's appetite get crushed? or do they just use inject anadrol?

no, it's just that there is a rule - if you can't stand it, you're not fit and someone else will take your place lol

I agree.. this gentleman was talking their " health phase " after shows .. I was referring to health phase and what woukd be safer.. he says he simply switches to straight test gh with a little slin put in and out. But no he's not coached by Askar..

popular strategy - "health/crusie phase" on 1.5-3g test, 8-12iu gh and insulin

 

[yousef12O]

what about their training, do they go for the pump or chase heavy weights?