Blood thinners ?

[MethodAir]

You said it yourself, "could suggest" and you mention one thing it could suggest. High BNP is also used as a test for heart failure.

With imaging and cardiac stress testing, ekg, etc you can directly observe changes in heart function, structure and developing or present pathology.

Contrary to what you suggested, cardiac issues will show up in the bloodwork. A high BNP in isolation can indicate that there are cardiac issues, with a high degree of probability. That said, no single test should be used in isolation, including liver function and imaging tests (echocardiogram, ct angiogram etc).

The premise that steroids 'cause' these cardiac issues is also unproven, thus the studies by Dr. O'Connor to gather more evidence. Did they make them worse? Maybe. Did they cause them? Probably not.

 

[MethodAir]

A lot of the nasty stuff that steroids can cause

Many people misapplied this argument with respect to Arnold Schwarzenegger, ie 'his cardiac disease was caused by steroids and high cholesterol'.

The underlying cause was actually a genetic tissue abnormality, a bicuspid aortic valve, which developed stenotic, athlerosclerotic lesions (measurable by BNP).

 

[maldorf]

Long term use of Coumadin has been shown to cause arterial calcification. I would be hesitant to use it for any long length of time. And would have to way the risks and give some of the newer anticoagulants a close look.

That's me that uses it, he is using one of the newer drugs. My doc is using it I think because it works more directly against my prothrombin mutation. Ive been on it for 11 years and so far no troubles.

 

[maldorf]

Many people misapplied this argument with respect to Arnold Schwarzenegger, ie 'his cardiac disease was caused by steroids and high cholesterol'.

The underlying cause was actually a genetic tissue abnormality, a bicuspid aortic valve, which developed stenotic, athlerosclerotic lesions (measurable by BNP).

I wonder if he had untreated high blood pressure for a long period of time. Wouldn't that make the valve deteriorate more/faster? He was born with that problem though, yeah.

 

[maldorf]

Pradaxa

Good page on Pradaxa. Some info here comparing it to Warfarin, and for some reason Warfarin is a good deal better at preventing heart attacks.

"Compared to Warfarin
Since the 1950s, the blood thinner Warfarin has held the title as the industry-standard anticoagulant. But as the blood-thinning market continues to become more lucrative, newer competitors like Eliquis and Xarelto have entered the playing field.
Warfarin, which requires regular blood monitoring and diet restrictions, comes with a number of side effects. Though its internal bleeding side effect can be reversed with an antidote, many other blood thinners do not have this option.
A study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal illustrated that the 50 mg dose of Pradaxa comes with higher rates of gastrointestinal bleeding when compared to Warfarin. The study, conducted at St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto, included 46,000 atrial fibrillation patients above the age of 65. The findings illustrated a 40 percent increase in risk of bleeding or hospitalization.(with Pradaxa)
However, clinical trials show that Pradaxa may be more effective in preventing a stroke than Warfarin, though both come with an available cure. In addition, Pradaxa is more expensive than Warfarin, with a price tag of $3,000 a year.
In The Data: Heart Attacks and Bleeding
In March 2012, the Journal of the American College of Cardiology published a study that found an increased risk of heart attack for Pradaxa users. The study used the U.S. National Institute of Health MEDLINE database information and included 30,470 patients across five trials. The researchers concluded Praxada would lead to a higher chance of heart attack than Warfarin.
Another study, also published in March 2012, came to the same conclusion. The Archives of Internal Medicine published the Cleveland Clinic data that linked Pradaxa to a 33 percent increase of heart attack or heart disease.
In 2011, Pradaxa was linked to more than 500 serious bleeding events. The events caused death or disability. In 2012, eight U.S. patients died from uncontrollable bleeding linked to Pradaxa."

https://medtruth.com/drugs-devices/pradaxa/

 

[MethodAir]

I wonder if he had untreated high blood pressure for a long period of time. Wouldn't that make the valve deteriorate more/faster? He was born with that problem though, yeah.

Not sure if he had untreated high blood pressure, but I doubt it. He is in his 70s and doesn't appear to have undergone coronary intervention/surgery. But his heavy weight training/temporary spikes in blood pressure would have definitely exacerbated his genetic aortic valve tissue condition before replacement. Probably something more people should consider, given that 1-2% of the population have bicuspid aortic valves (and probably don't know it). But even a normal tricuspid aortic valve can also blow out from extreme powerlifting, and quickly become athlerosclerotic.

 

[Dog-Slime]

Sorry if I'm derailing the discussion but this thread got me thinking bout baby aspirin. Thoughts on using it daily to control bp and heart attack risks on cycle?

 

[Black Beard]

Contrary to what you suggested, cardiac issues will show up in the bloodwork. A high BNP in isolation can indicate that there are cardiac issues, with a high degree of probability. That said, no single test should be used in isolation, including liver function and imaging tests (echocardiogram, ct angiogram etc).

The premise that steroids 'cause' these cardiac issues is also unproven, thus the studies by Dr. O'Connor to gather more evidence. Did they make them worse? Maybe. Did they cause them? Probably not.

No, there are plenty of studies saying you cannot assume there are issues just because BNP is elevated.


Are you serious that steroids cannot cause cardiac issues? C'mon man, use your brain here.


Did they cause them? Well, androgens can cause cardiac remodelling, change the way cardiac and vascular cells calcium channels behave, increase BP which has a damaging effect on heart, kidneys, eye, etc, make the blood thicker, i can keep going. They MUST be respected. AAS use in susceptible people with certain genes is a ticking time bomb, the average joe can get away with a lot of abuse though.

P.S.

I am a clinician, i know a thing or two about lab work and interpreting it. BNP is NOT and never will be a definitive test for any heart problem. It's only a marker and a sign, which is then followed up with further testing.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

I don't believe that you're a physician. Maybe a nurse at most. Feel free to send me your credentials via PM though.

 

[Black Beard]

I don't believe that you're a physician. Maybe a nurse at most. Feel free to send me your credentials via PM though.

I seriously don't care.

 

[derb83]

everything else was completely fine despite years of use heart is near perfect as well as lungs , liver kidneys eat . I do have a cholesterol issue and well as abnormally high testosterone which my doc stated are basically like cousins . even after months off cycle with no pct ect test levels were from 900 -1200 ish

 

[MethodAir]

No, there are plenty of studies saying you cannot assume there are issues just because BNP is elevated.


Are you serious that steroids cannot cause cardiac issues? C'mon man, use your brain here.


Did they cause them? Well, androgens can cause cardiac remodelling, change the way cardiac and vascular cells calcium channels behave, increase BP which has a damaging effect on heart, kidneys, eye, etc, make the blood thicker, i can keep going. They MUST be respected. AAS use in susceptible people with certain genes is a ticking time bomb, the average joe can get away with a lot of abuse though.

P.S.

I am a clinician, i know a thing or two about lab work and interpreting it. BNP is NOT and never will be a definitive test for any heart problem. It's only a marker and a sign, which is then followed up with further testing.

Highly elevated blood readings (BNP, ALT/AST, Troponin T, BUN to cr etc) indicate serious physiological issues that are likely cardiac related.

When Imaging tests, ECGs, blood pressure monitoring and physical examinations rule out non-cardiac causes of these readings, cardiac issues are confirmed.

It is a fact that cardiac tissue that becomes lesioned is always more prone to atherosclerosis. Contrary to what you claim, this will likely be reflected in bloodwork (BNP etc), even though the lipid profile may be normal.

Contrary to what you also suggest, it is NOT fact that high AAS use and skewed lipid profiles will always cause coronary artery disease, severe ventricular remodeling etc.

With regard to claims about your supposed profession, they are irrelevant to this thread, as they currently can't be confirmed or denied.

 

[Black Beard]

Highly elevated blood readings (BNP, ALT/AST, Troponin T, BUN to cr etc) indicate serious physiological issues that are likely cardiac related.

When Imaging tests, ECGs, blood pressure monitoring and physical examinations rule out non-cardiac causes of these readings, cardiac issues are confirmed.

It is a fact that cardiac tissue that becomes lesioned is always more prone to atherosclerosis. Contrary to what you claim, this will likely be reflected in bloodwork (BNP etc), even though the lipid profile may be normal.

Contrary to what you also suggest, it is NOT fact that high AAS use and skewed lipid profiles will always cause coronary artery disease, severe ventricular remodeling etc.

With regard to claims about your supposed profession, they are irrelevant to this thread, as they currently can't be confirmed or denied.

You said a whole lot of nothing.


Not once did i say or suggest "always". You're delusional if you think AAS can't cause heart problems or be a direct cause in some cases, and that's not a personal attack on you.


There are plenty of case studies of guys with no other risk factors , only AAS use, at young ages, with heart attack or even death. Many studies support this as well. This isn't a debate, its basic physiology but you can believe and do what you want. I'll leave it there.

 

[MethodAir]

You said a whole lot of nothing.

While the information might not mean anything to you, it may be relevant for legitimate medical practitioners, and informed AAS users who are actually evidence based.

Thank you for the discussion- The overall lack of data regarding AAS in the literature is why we decided to do this study.

 

[j2048b]

everything else was completely fine despite years of use heart is near perfect as well as lungs , liver kidneys eat . I do have a cholesterol issue and well as abnormally high testosterone which my doc stated are basically like cousins . even after months off cycle with no pct ect test levels were from 900 -1200 ish

Get ahold of doc glueck sonar16@gmail . com

He is the doctor, nelson who runs excel male forums, has had 2 interviews with and i got my script thru him to check every clotting issue and i came back all cleared even tho i had a left calve dvt a few years ago,

Doc g will be the one u want to speak with about all this,

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[MethodAir]

I wonder if he had untreated high blood pressure for a long period of time. Wouldn't that make the valve deteriorate more/faster? He was born with that problem though, yeah.

As an aside, it's also worth noting that the BNP levels associated with severe aortic valve lesions are typically much higher than those associated with merely heart failure, ie in the range of 20, 000+ is not uncommon...

So there is a good chance Arnold had very high BNP levels pre valve replacement, even though he wasn't actually in heart failure.

 

[maldorf]

even after months off cycle with no pct ect test levels were from 900 -1200 ish

wow! Well then I would be happy with that if I were you and just stay natural for now, considering your genetic condition. I forget, did you say how old you are? When I had my heart attack at age 38 my levels were down around 40 when I got off and I had to go on TRT. Yeah that's right, 40 and not 400, no extra zero at the end.

Stay safe. Im glad to hear you are ok. You should PM Emeric on here, he suffered a PE himself once. He knows a good deal about this.

 

[whoremoan]

Polycthemia vera is a hematopoietic stem cell disorder (myeloproliferative) to where all his blood cells increase.

Essentially it's a common theme for clotting in individuals with these types of myeloproliferative disorders to be inflicted with thrombotic events.

If you have this can you still do cycles ? And compete ?

 

[warlock]

Aas can also potentiate warfarin/Coumadin, thereby necessitating dramatically lowering your warfarin dose, to maintain an optimal INR.. This could be a positive as warfarin is effectively rat poison. Consider buying a coaguchek to self monitor.

I'm confused. I thought it would be the other way around? Any use of AAS would thicken the blood, therefore forcing one to increase their coumadin/warfarin dose. What am I missing?

 

[stackdizzy]

Personally take Warfarin and trt or high levels doesn't effect my inr level at all. I get it checked every month.