bloodwork 3 weeks into pct of test/dbol cycle

[cross88]

Hey guys, so I ended up finally getting my bloodwork back from bloodtestscanada.com so i thought id post em up and see what you think
Baseline: Test 10.5 (ref range 9-28)
Estro 115 (ref range <150)
LH 8 (ref range 2-8)

3 weeks into pct: Test 10.8
Estro 80
LH 17 Same ref ranges

Overall I feel good, but am still having problems staying hard. Could this be due to the drop in estro compared to my normal values? And why is my test still so low when my lh is so high and estro is normal. Any help/comments is appreciated guys.

Also, Ive had low t symptoms for 3-4 years, before ever doing my first cycle which was this one. But since im technically within range they wont do anything. I have a specialist apt but the wait is 1 year. What do you guys think of self administering trt with occasional blasts until then?

 

[motivatedbrah]

You haven't given us any info to work with...

What does your PCT look like? dosages/compounds/timing/length

You didn't give us the measurements (nmOL/L or ng/dl?) of your blood work, or specify total T or free T.

Any strange symptoms, or are you just speculating about low T?

 

[cross88]

You haven't given us any info to work with...

What does your PCT look like? dosages/compounds/timing/length

You didn't give us the measurements (nmOL/L or ng/dl?) of your blood work, or specify total T or free T.

Any strange symptoms, or are you just speculating about low T?

Sorry, pct was clomid 50/50/50/50 along with nolva 20/10/10/10 and aromasin 12.5mg ed. Pct was finished a week ago. Test is total I believe, in nmol/L and estro is pmol/L. Ive had low libido/energy and trouble focusing for the past few years, enough to make a couple trips to my gp asking about low test and this was long before I started juicing. 10.5 is low normal, but very low for my age (24)

 

[motivatedbrah]

Well technically you're in reference range, so you're not clinically low T. If you want to try and further boost your T, I would run another 6-8week round of clomid without nolva (they compete for the same recepter, so taking them simultaneously reduces the efficiency of both). Just do a lower dose run, 50/50/25/25/25/25/25/25 ED. run your anastrozole for about a week at the end of it all to kill any excess Estrogen that may have occured (unlikely, but its a good idea to throw it in to be safe) and get your bloodwork done after the week of anastrozole.

Don't run an AI during this new round of clomid unless your begin to notice sides that are probably related to estrogen, that you do not currently have. If you do get Estrogen sides, then run aromasin at a low dose and leave the Nolva as a last resort. Like I said, Nolva competes for the same receptors as clomid does so if you take nolva you're just wasting a lot of the clomid you're taking. I think its funny to see people constantly recommend the classic Clomid + Nolva PCT, when it has already been proven inefficient.

 

[cross88]

Well technically you're in reference range, so you're not clinically low T. If you want to try and further boost your T, I would run another 6-8week round of clomid without nolva (they compete for the same recepter, so taking them simultaneously reduces the efficiency of both). Just do a lower dose run, 50/50/25/25/25/25/25/25 ED. run your anastrozole for about a week at the end of it all to kill any excess Estrogen that may have occured (unlikely, but its a good idea to throw it in to be safe) and get your bloodwork done after the week of anastrozole.

Don't run an AI during this new round of clomid unless your begin to notice sides that are probably related to estrogen, that you do not currently have. If you do get Estrogen sides, then run aromasin at a low dose and leave the Nolva as a last resort. Like I said, Nolva competes for the same receptors as clomid does so if you take nolva you're just wasting a lot of the clomid you're taking. I think its funny to see people constantly recommend the classic Clomid + Nolva PCT, when it has already been proven inefficient.

Can you provide links to prove the inefficiency of using both at the same time? Ive always heard they work hand in hand. I don't think another pct is the way to go here, my lh and fsh are already high above normal ranges which is what serms do, so they are signalling the testes to produce more testosterone but it seems like the testes just aren't functioning properly

 

[blaze918]

How long was your cycle?
If you look at William Llewellyn's book Anabolics there is a study showing what happens during PCT. The study shows that although your LH may be high it can take a while for the balls to come back online fully.This is why he recommends hcg. There may be nothing wrong with your testes, they may just need more time.
Also you probably want to wait 30 days after you finish your pct to get bloodwork done. This will show you where you are really at. (You testosterone levels and LH will be elevated from the pct drugs if you test to early). This was recommended by Dr. G.
Also if you do decide to run another pct you should give Dr G's protocol a try.

**broken link removed**

Good luck mate

 

[cross88]

How long was your cycle?
If you look at William Llewellyn's book Anabolics there is a study showing what happens during PCT. The study shows that although your LH may be high it can take a while for the balls to come back online fully.This is why he recommends hcg. There may be nothing wrong with your testes, they may just need more time.
Also you probably want to wait 30 days after you finish your pct to get bloodwork done. This will show you where you are really at. (You testosterone levels and LH will be elevated from the pct drugs if you test to early). This was recommended by Dr. G.
Also if you do decide to run another pct you should give Dr G's protocol a try.

**broken link removed**

Good luck mate

My cycle was 10 weeks, waited 2 weeks after last pin then started pct. I will recheck my levels in a month and compare, but my test was low to begin with so I doubt it will increase. I will give that a read thanks

 

[ItalianMuscle927]

Hey guys, so I ended up finally getting my bloodwork back from bloodtestscanada.com so i thought id post em up and see what you think
Baseline: Test 10.5 (ref range 9-28)
Estro 115 (ref range <150)
LH 8 (ref range 2-8)

3 weeks into pct: Test 10.8
Estro 80
LH 17 Same ref ranges

Overall I feel good, but am still having problems staying hard. Could this be due to the drop in estro compared to my normal values? And why is my test still so low when my lh is so high and estro is normal. Any help/comments is appreciated guys.

Also, Ive had low t symptoms for 3-4 years, before ever doing my first cycle which was this one. But since im technically within range they wont do anything. I have a specialist apt but the wait is 1 year. What do you guys think of self administering trt with occasional blasts until then?

There are plenty of HRT specialists in the US, why would you wait one year to see one?

 

[motivatedbrah]

Can you provide links to prove the inefficiency of using both at the same time? Ive always heard they work hand in hand. I don't think another pct is the way to go here, my lh and fsh are already high above normal ranges which is what serms do, so they are signalling the testes to produce more testosterone but it seems like the testes just aren't functioning properly

"Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen, AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 240, Issue 2 125-E130

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M.

Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively.

Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

So if Nolva (Tamoxifen) is used it will compete with E2 or Clomid for estrogen receptors. While E2 and Clomid have positive effects on GnRH-stimulated LH release, Nolva does not. Nolva just gets in the way early on. But may be fine at lower dose later."

-Obviously the above shows that tamoxifen and clomid compete for the same receptors. Why people fail to acknolwedge this on most boards is beyond me, but that's their loss.

LH is a moving target and fluctuates frequently. If your test is still low the only ways I can think of efficiently boosting it would be to run a little hcg for a few weeks and then begin the low dose clomid cycle I mentioned before. Just because LH is high on a single test does not mean that clomid cannot exert an effect (since LH drops throughout the day like I mentioned, which allows clomid to exert more of its effects at those points).

 

[cross88]

There are plenty of HRT specialists in the US, why would you wait one year to see one?

I am in Canada

 

[Xenorikki]

Me too bro and getting on HRT is a bitch!!! I had to wait 6 months to see a eurologist before I could go see an endo 2 diff docs wouldn't let me go see an endo. So 3 months after the euro I went n saw an endo who said she wanted more tests after 6 more months. Fuck canadian health care.

How long did it take u to get ur results from that site dude? Do u have Ehealth? That let's u see the results online as soon as the lab tech enters it into the computer.

Did u have to pay for those bloods? Just go to a walk in and ask for tests even if its like your 30th blood test if its a diff doc he won't have record of it. N u get resulsts same day with ehealth.

 

[Kaladryn]

"Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen, AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 240, Issue 2 125-E130

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M.

Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively.

Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

So if Nolva (Tamoxifen) is used it will compete with E2 or Clomid for estrogen receptors. While E2 and Clomid have positive effects on GnRH-stimulated LH release, Nolva does not. Nolva just gets in the way early on. But may be fine at lower dose later."

-Obviously the above shows that tamoxifen and clomid compete for the same receptors. Why people fail to acknowledge this on most boards is beyond me, but that's their loss.

LH is a moving target and fluctuates frequently. If your test is still low the only ways I can think of efficiently boosting it would be to run a little hcg for a few weeks and then begin the low dose clomid cycle I mentioned before. Just because LH is high on a single test does not mean that clomid cannot exert an effect (since LH drops throughout the day like I mentioned, which allows clomid to exert more of its effects at those points).

You are assuming that there is a lack of sensitivity to GNRH. Why would this be when GNRH levels have been suppressed for so long? This is why clomid doesn't do jack shit to "restart" you. The problem is elevated E2 levels feeding back the pituitary and STOPPING GNRH production. As one very smart endo explained to me, and years of research have confirmed, the answer is all in aromatase activity. And AIs aren't the answer, all AIs (even suicidal ones) further increase aromatase activity.

BTW, the OPs LH is high because of the nolvadex lingering, his test levels have yet to crash completely. Don't bother to test anything again until at least 3 months after your stop taking ALL PCT, recovery takes a while and you will never recover to 100%.

 

[Xenorikki]

This may sound retarded lol. But you could try DAA. Some ppl swear by it to raise natty test. Lotta ppl say it won't do jack shit. Iv seen one guys with bloods showing a spike butttt lord knows

Could be worth a try in combo with whatever else its like $30 so cheap. And fuel,gnc, and pop eyes all sell it.

 

[Lamar]

The problem is elevated E2 levels feeding back the pituitary and STOPPING GNRH production. As one very smart endo explained to me, and years of research have confirmed, the answer is all in aromatase activity. And AIs aren't the answer, all AIs (even suicidal ones) further increase aromatase activity.

so then what's the answer?

 

[motivatedbrah]

You are assuming that there is a lack of sensitivity to GNRH. Why would this be when GNRH levels have been suppressed for so long? This is why clomid doesn't do jack shit to "restart" you.

If clomid "doesn't do jack shit to restart you," then why do MULTIPLE studies show otherwise?

>Recovery of persistent hypogonadism by clomiphene in males with prolactinomas under dopamine agonist treatment, Rogerio Silicani Ribeiro and Julio Abucham, European Journal of Endocrinology, Vol 161, Issue 1, 163-169

>Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism, Ahmad Shabsigh MD, The Journal of Sexual Medicine Volume 2, Issue 5, pages 716–721, September 200

>Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D., Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5

The last study concludes that clomiphene citrate (clomid) can effectively restart Test levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis when that axis has been previously shut off by cycles of anabolic steroids.

So please, explain to me how clomid does "jack shit" while using facts?

If you and OP don't like clomid, that's fine. But the studies above show that clomid = most effective method of boosting T and fixing the endocrine system.

And I believe I already made my point about why nolva is bad while taking clomid, so with that in mind it makes sense to skip nolva during clomid treatment, so that clomid can exert its effects to the best degree.

So IMO, I think clomid is the best treatment you could do for yourself (at a low dose, as I stated before). If you choose not to go that route then don't be surprised when you don't recover to 100%.

 

[cross88]

This may sound retarded lol. But you could try DAA. Some ppl swear by it to raise natty test. Lotta ppl say it won't do jack shit. Iv seen one guys with bloods showing a spike butttt lord knows

Could be worth a try in combo with whatever else its like $30 so cheap. And fuel,gnc, and pop eyes all sell it.

Ive been on 3grams of daa for more than 6 weeks now, doesn't seem to be helping any

 

[cross88]

Me too bro and getting on HRT is a bitch!!! I had to wait 6 months to see a eurologist before I could go see an endo 2 diff docs wouldn't let me go see an endo. So 3 months after the euro I went n saw an endo who said she wanted more tests after 6 more months. Fuck canadian health care.

How long did it take u to get ur results from that site dude? Do u have Ehealth? That let's u see the results online as soon as the lab tech enters it into the computer.

Did u have to pay for those bloods? Just go to a walk in and ask for tests even if its like your 30th blood test if its a diff doc he won't have record of it. N u get resulsts same day with ehealth.

It took about 2 weeks after blood was drawn. They emailed me the results, and I had to pay for it but wanted to try it out instead of having everything on my file. Never heard of ehealth, can you provide more info on it?

 

[Xenorikki]

Next time u go get your blood drawn ask the ladies at the desk when u go take a number they set it up for you.

Once its set up as soon as your blood is tested the results are posted online for u to see under your username n password on ehealth. For testosterone n cholesterol even cbc. Its all same day n its free

And unless you're planning on applying for law enforcement who cares if its on your file? Lol free bloods

 

[cross88]

Next time u go get your blood drawn ask the ladies at the desk when u go take a number they set it up for you.

Once its set up as soon as your blood is tested the results are posted online for u to see under your username n password on ehealth. For testosterone n cholesterol even cbc. Its all same day n its free

And unless you're planning on applying for law enforcement who cares if its on your file? Lol free bloods

Nice ill give that a shot next time thanks

 

[Xenorikki]

Np and I don't see why you wouldn't tell your doc why not lol he/she would be more likely to give u free blood requisitions if u did tell. But ya with your test level at 10 somthin they aren't gonna put u on HRT and even if u fudge the test lol and get lower levels you'll still have to wait months n months with more rettesting ur gonna have to fudge to get on HRT lol. If ur gonna cruise on test make sure u go with a good sponsor and get bloods regularily don't wanna hurt urself.