Bloodwork Results

[sma]

I used tren for the majority of a 2 year period as high as 700mg and paid the price for it. I was in my mid 20s too (turning 30 in 2 months). The only thing that kept me alive was the fact I got an echo cardiogram done to detect an aneurysm, which bloodwork can't do. I'm not saying you'll be as unlucky as I was, but I really think you should get an EKG and echo cardiogram done by a cardiologist if possible.

Pumped340 Same. An echo and a follow-up cardiac MRI is what made me decide to come off gear

curious what made you get a cardiogram, were you getting heart palpatations, did you feel a certain way

 

[nothuman]

curious what made you get a cardiogram, were you getting heart palpatations, did you feel a certain way

Exactly, heart palps, but it turned out those were most likely from stimulants and stress/anxiety. I was told I was "fine" after the echo actually but I made them give me a CT scan because I had a bad feeling and turned out I was right.

 

[little slice]

Did you have your urinalysis at the same time as your blood draw?

yes

What time of day was it taken? My guess is early AM, by a few of your markers. I could be wrong tho.

around 11am, I woke around 10am that day

protein intake prior to your labs, as well, total protein intake?

none for 12 hours.. but around 400g/day otherwise

Any prescription meds?
no

What's your normal fluid intake like and how many times per day do you urinate? Do you feel like you empty your bladder completely?
been trying to keep it higher since I had been on DNP, approximately 1.5 gallon/day

How's your sleep? Any reason to believe you may have OSA (sleep apnea)?
sleep is good, I snore sometimes...but no other signs

Thanks Stewie

 

[Stewie]

Did you have your urinalysis at the same time as your blood draw?

What time of day was it taken? My guess is early AM, by a few of your markers. I could be wrong tho.

protein intake prior to your labs, as well, total protein intake?

Any prescription meds?

What's your normal fluid intake like and how many times per day do you urinate? Do you feel like you empty your bladder completely?

How's your sleep? Any reason to believe you may have OSA (sleep apnea)?

I'll add this If your urinalysis was done at the same time as your blood draw.


I can tell you right now, you was not severely dehydrated, nor was you even moderately dehydrated. Insufficiently hydrated, I believe so.

Your urinalysis is the tell-tell indicator of this. As well your Albumin and Total protein levels. Yes your HH, BUN, Creatinine and their ratio is a helpful diagnostic tool. Yet it's not always the only accurate and specifics due to protein intake and muscle tissue break down.

You have to take other markers into account.

If you was dehydrated your specific gravity would be high- yours is 1.012. Severely dehydrated is seen in >1.035

Your urine appearance is clear, with dehydration it's cloudy.

Your pH is 6.5, this is normal. With dehydration you'd be more acidic at around 4 +/-.

Your Ketones are negative. You'd show traces of Ketones if you was severely dehydrated.

Both Albumin and Protein are what's considered an acute phase reactant. What this means, is if there's a sudden change in the volume of plasma water and a change in the concentration, this shifts these proteins accordingly, in-which would shift your serum osmolality. Incidentally, you didn't have a serum osmolality pulled. With certainty, it would be normal, by these other markers.

On your blood test, your Albumin was at 4.6 g/DL. Moderately to severe dehydration you'd see an Albumin level of >5. The same can be said about your Protein. Neither your Total Protein nor your Albumin was elevated, which signifies dehydration.

Your k+ is normal, with dehydration as gotgame pointed out this would shift upwards. Same with your Na.

With your Na, I would suspect that as I asked, your water intake is to high pushing out too much Na. I'm going off of assumption, which I don't like to do. Yet this seems to be the obvious.

Again, you may have been insufficiently hydrated. Most of the time hardly anyone if properly hydrated.

 

[Stewie]

I was typing that up when you posted. Pretty obvious

I'll try to get back to your answers. I'm prepping for this semester, and work. I'll do my best to respond later.

 

[GreenEarth]

Sometimes I just have to stare in awe at the knowledge contained in the majority of your posts Stewie. Seriously, thank you for contributing to the board, you're one of those guys that I check your post history just to see what else I can absorb.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

curious what made you get a cardiogram, were you getting heart palpatations, did you feel a certain way

Exactly, heart palps, but it turned out those were most likely from stimulants and stress/anxiety. I was told I was "fine" after the echo actually but I made them give me a CT scan because I had a bad feeling and turned out I was right.

Somewhat similar with me. I was getting more frequent and intense chest pain. And when I say intense I only mean relatively, it really wasn't bad at all. Some people say angina is like having an elephant on your chest, this was more like having a textbook on my chest, but it was getting more significant and more frequent. I thought maybe it was the EQ causing anxiety but I'm really not an anxious person about most things (besides health) and it seemed out of place. One day after a workout I was in clinic and I just left and went to the doctor.

My EKG was fine but I really wanted to follow up with an echo. I got the echo and they told me my EF% was 45-50% (norm is 55-70%). The cardiologist told me she don't think this was causing the chest pain and I think that may be correct as there are plenty of people with lower ejection fractions who do not get intermittent chest pain. Also mine was never when I was exercising, just when I would lay down.

So in any case I did not really find the true root cause of the chest pain, but it did mostly diminish when I came off gear and it was what caused me to get the echo done, so I guess I should be thankful for it as I was originally planning on blasting until I was 30 (another 6 years). Every once in a while my mind wanders to where I would be physique wise if I never found out lol

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Im not trying to argue the point...according to Dr Crisler:

Originally Posted by Dr Crisler
I have never seen hard and fast incidences from a study, but know that the (unncecessarily high) acceleration from bi-weekly dosing is more likely to raise H&H (Hemoglobin and Hematocrit) to dangerous levels.

The ceiling for me is a Hemoglobin of 18.0 and a Hematocrit of 55.0. Then they are on their way down to the Red Cross to donate a wonderfully healthy (as my patients are all going to the gym, eating right, and taking their supplements--well, they TELL me they are at least!) pint of the good stuff.

For those who would be deferred due to a prexisting condition or, perhaps, use of finasteride (another reason I am not fond of it) then a therapeutic phlebotomy can be arranged at the local hospital.

I must admit the TheKing's strategy WOULD work. I also notice that he has a particular talent for figuring out how to get around the rules (LOL). However, as a physician, and Board Member at my local Red Cross, I must say that doing as he advises is an unethical--and potentially dangerous--waste of scant Red Cross resources.

There is no given time duration for witholding TRT from a polycythemic patient. Every case is different.

I am happy to note that usually when the H&H is too high, it is because the patient forgot to drink water while they were fasting for their labwork. That is why I always grab a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel along with their CBC (Complete Blood Count). If the BUN/creatinine ratio is greater than 20.0, I know that they are dehydrated. This concentrates the blood, and falsely elevates the H&H.

 

[gotgame]

LS: Ive had some time to actually look at your labs and what you posted but before i even begin i want to ask you a question. Whats changed? You obviously knew all of that was terrible for your health but you chose not to care. It wasnt a lack of knowledge as I have seen from your posts you are educated on this subject matter.

No doubt you have seen labs results from people on tren. You have seen that tren has some weird properties like it can cause direct liver stress in the absence of orals. You know that HDL and lipids are important but still were ok with taking superdrol at large doses for long periods of time.

From your posts you are now showing concern as u have some abnormal labs. But this doesnt come as a surprise to you does it? Lets say for arguements sake that your AST and ALT were completely elevated from exercise ( they arent), lets say your HDL of 10 was genetic( it isnt) and your BUN/Cr with elevated hemoglobin is from dehydration( they also arent). Lets say all that was true...would you change anything you are doing or just continue doing what you are doing?

You have a lot of advice on this thread, some better then others but still everyone is trying to be helpful. Are you just looking for some supplements to make the labs look normal and put your head in the sand?

Someone mentioned TUDCA. Ill let people debate its usefulness but lets say for a second that all it does is prevent caspases release via BAX which prevents cell apoptosis and maybe is treating a lab value more then its actually preventing intrinsic cell damage...are you just looking to treat the labs are do you want to actually cycle responsibly from now on? Only a few ..let me say again A FEW supplements should ever really be used and most others wont be needed if using responsibly. As with all things in life there is use and abuse.


Notice how some people on here are SO quick to recommend a suipplement but not get to the underlying cause. These are some of the same people who when it comes to physicians get all pissed off becuase they are so quick to prescribe and not have the patient make lifestyle modications. Its the same thing people.

You have some good advice on this thread so far from some people really trying to help as bodybuilders on a whole are a tight knit community. None of this will matter though if you are putting gym lifts and looks over health. Health is more then lab values.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Im not trying to argue the point...according to Dr Crisler:

Originally Posted by Dr Crisler
I have never seen hard and fast incidences from a study, but know that the (unncecessarily high) acceleration from bi-weekly dosing is more likely to raise H&H (Hemoglobin and Hematocrit) to dangerous levels.

The ceiling for me is a Hemoglobin of 18.0 and a Hematocrit of 55.0. Then they are on their way down to the Red Cross to donate a wonderfully healthy (as my patients are all going to the gym, eating right, and taking their supplements--well, they TELL me they are at least!) pint of the good stuff.

For those who would be deferred due to a prexisting condition or, perhaps, use of finasteride (another reason I am not fond of it) then a therapeutic phlebotomy can be arranged at the local hospital.

I must admit the TheKing's strategy WOULD work. I also notice that he has a particular talent for figuring out how to get around the rules (LOL). However, as a physician, and Board Member at my local Red Cross, I must say that doing as he advises is an unethical--and potentially dangerous--waste of scant Red Cross resources.

There is no given time duration for witholding TRT from a polycythemic patient. Every case is different.

I am happy to note that usually when the H&H is too high, it is because the patient forgot to drink water while they were fasting for their labwork. That is why I always grab a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel along with their CBC (Complete Blood Count). If the BUN/creatinine ratio is greater than 20.0, I know that they are dehydrated. This concentrates the blood, and falsely elevates the H&H.

Would definitely like to hear Stewie's thoughts on this. Personally, I have had blood work drinking absolutely no water prior, and I have had blood work drinking 4-5 cups of water prior. I have never had levels above 14.5 and 45 or so and it seems fairly consistent, but I'm just one example.

 

[little slice]

LS: Ive had some time to actually look at your labs and what you posted but before i even begin i want to ask you a question. Whats changed? You obviously knew all of that was terrible for your health but you chose not to care. It wasnt a lack of knowledge as I have seen from your posts you are educated on this subject matter.

No doubt you have seen labs results from people on tren. You have seen that tren has some weird properties like it can cause direct liver stress in the absence of orals. You know that HDL and lipids are important but still were ok with taking superdrol at large doses for long periods of time.

From your posts you are now showing concern as u have some abnormal labs. But this doesnt come as a surprise to you does it? Lets say for arguements sake that your AST and ALT were completely elevated from exercise ( they arent), lets say your HDL of 10 was genetic( it isnt) and your BUN/Cr with elevated hemoglobin is from dehydration( they also arent). Lets say all that was true...would you change anything you are doing or just continue doing what you are doing?

You have a lot of advice on this thread, some better then others but still everyone is trying to be helpful. Are you just looking for some supplements to make the labs look normal and put your head in the sand?

Someone mentioned TUDCA. Ill let people debate its usefulness but lets say for a second that all it does is prevent caspases release via BAX which prevents cell apoptosis and maybe is treating a lab value more then its actually preventing intrinsic cell damage...are you just looking to treat the labs are do you want to actually cycle responsibly from now on? Only a few ..let me say again A FEW supplements should ever really be used and most others wont be needed if using responsibly. As with all things in life there is use and abuse.


Notice how some people on here are SO quick to recommend a suipplement but not get to the underlying cause. These are some of the same people who when it comes to physicians get all pissed off becuase they are so quick to prescribe and not have the patient make lifestyle modications. Its the same thing people.

You have some good advice on this thread so far from some people really trying to help as bodybuilders on a whole are a tight knit community. None of this will matter though if you are putting gym lifts and looks over health. Health is more then lab values.

indeed.


well, for the past year and a half or so, ive been basically "blasting" nonstop.. high tren, deca, test...whatever I could get my hands on.. and I had a lot of orals in my stash, so id just take a few tabs before I left for the gym.

no breaks, no test cruises....about a year and a half.



my new aas plan (which I will certainly adhere to) calls for

* 8-10 week blasts with about half of what I was running before, and 6 week test-only cruises (low dose)..

* no more orals, insulin, gh, or peps




it's a far cry from blast/blast for almost 2 years with 4+ month long stretches of orals.


id basically run orals until my appetite dropped off.. that was my indication that it was time to come off.



so quite a bit has changed now that ive come face to face with reality.

im not one of those types who "needs" to be big.. so this transition won't be hard for me at all.

id rather save money too

 

[GreenEarth]

Only a few ..let me say again A FEW supplements should ever really be used and most others wont be needed if using responsibly. As with all things in life there is use and abuse.

If you ever get the time, could you list the supplements you see as being essential?

 

[gulfcoast]

indeed.


well, for the past year and a half or so, ive been basically "blasting" nonstop.. high tren, deca, test...whatever I could get my hands on.. and I had a lot of orals in my stash, so id just take a few tabs before I left for the gym.

no breaks, no test cruises....about a year and a half.



my new aas plan (which I will certainly adhere to) calls for

* 8-10 week blasts with about half of what I was running before, and 6 week test-only cruises (low dose)..

* no more orals, insulin, gh, or peps




it's a far cry from blast/blast for almost 2 years with 4+ month long stretches of orals.


id basically run orals until my appetite dropped off.. that was my indication that it was time to come off.



so quite a bit has changed now that ive come face to face with reality.

im not one of those types who "needs" to be big.. so this transition won't be hard for me at all.

id rather save money too

You got any pics to show the results of this massive PED intake? Do you feel the results were worth the possible long-term damage that it may have caused?

 

[little slice]

You got any pics to show the results of this massive PED intake? Do you feel the results were worth the possible long-term damage that it may have caused?

I may post up pics sometime in the future.. I never brought my phone with me in the gym, and even if I had, im not really the type to snap pictures of myself between sets.



and no results are worth long-term damage... so no.




this may be kinda ignorant of me to say, but I don't believe that I ever really suffered any "long term damage".. at least nothing that can't be reversed.


my kidney numbers always came back good, this was the first urinalysis that had any protein in it at all.


blood pressure never went out of range.. sure my cholesterol and liver enzymes are looking pretty bad... but those bounce back really quick when you remove the offenders and take some supplements


but considering what I had been doing?


TBH, I think the majority of the gear I ran was severely underdosed.. I believe this, because I started using gear from a reputable supplier on this site, and I grew like a weed.. this was about a couple months before I came off.


made more progress in those two months than I had in the 1.5 year period.


but I digress.

 

[Phidias]

i would get on Citrus Bergamot pronto...citrus bergamot will also knock down your LDL and stabilize your blood sugar.

Hate to admit it, but my HDL has been even lower than Little Slice's... for years now.

And considering the ultrasound I had 3 years ago already showed an enlarged heart, but also that each morning when I get up it feels like I'm gonna die for my heart is beating so fast, I'm really starting to wonder if I'm not scheduled to soon be one of the next names on that frightful growing list of deaths from heart attacks...

So, DC, and though I know the info has already been posted a million times, could you please take advantage of L. Slice's new thread to list, AGAIN, all the measures/supps that can be taken to prevent/help deal with potential cardiac disaster... such info can never be given enough. Thank you.

 

[Stewie]

Im not trying to argue the point...according to Dr Crisler:

Originally Posted by Dr Crisler
I have never seen hard and fast incidences from a study, but know that the (unncecessarily high) acceleration from bi-weekly dosing is more likely to raise H&H (Hemoglobin and Hematocrit) to dangerous levels.

The ceiling for me is a Hemoglobin of 18.0 and a Hematocrit of 55.0. Then they are on their way down to the Red Cross to donate a wonderfully healthy (as my patients are all going to the gym, eating right, and taking their supplements--well, they TELL me they are at least!) pint of the good stuff.

For those who would be deferred due to a prexisting condition or, perhaps, use of finasteride (another reason I am not fond of it) then a therapeutic phlebotomy can be arranged at the local hospital.

I must admit the TheKing's strategy WOULD work. I also notice that he has a particular talent for figuring out how to get around the rules (LOL). However, as a physician, and Board Member at my local Red Cross, I must say that doing as he advises is an unethical--and potentially dangerous--waste of scant Red Cross resources.

There is no given time duration for witholding TRT from a polycythemic patient. Every case is different.

I am happy to note that usually when the H&H is too high, it is because the patient forgot to drink water while they were fasting for their labwork. That is why I always grab a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel along with their CBC (Complete Blood Count). If the BUN/creatinine ratio is greater than 20.0, I know that they are dehydrated. This concentrates the blood, and falsely elevates the H&H.

Dante, I highly respect the message that you are conveying

By no means am I discrediting the fluctuations of hydration status and hemoglobin levels. I've highly recommend observing this inconjunction with other etiologies that may have relationship with relative polycythemia or hypoxic induced erythropoiesis, ect.

What I'd like to point out though, without disparaging Dr. Crisler's comments on the association of dehydration and BUN/Cr ratio falsely increasing one's HH. He's correct as this is the most common cause. Although, he's speaking in general terms. Or as if he's giving a lecture to a bunch of sedentary choir boys. What he is leaving out to the readers, as I'm sure he's very aware, is the fact that high protein intake will raise BUN and Creatinine levels. As will muscle tissue breakdown from a prior workout relatively close to one's labs. Then the fact certain medications can falsely increase Creatinine levels, such as Ace Inhibitors (I believe upwards of 25%), NSAIDS and different types of Antibiotics. Which all will skew a BUN/Cr ratio. All which I'm sure many readers are taking. Therefore, a basis for comparison of a sedentary lifestyle individual to that of a weight training, high protein ingesting individual does not fit into the same criteria when evaluating BUN/Cr ratio-- hydration status.


With that said, this is why it's important to observe other makers as aforementioned.

 

[Stewie]

Would definitely like to hear Stewie's thoughts on this. Personally, I have had blood work drinking absolutely no water prior, and I have had blood work drinking 4-5 cups of water prior. I have never had levels above 14.5 and 45 or so and it seems fairly consistent, but I'm just one example.

I wonder if Crohn's would have any interplay with this? Otherwise, I'm not sure?

 

[Bio]

Hate to admit it, but my HDL has been even lower than Little Slice's... for years now.

And considering the ultrasound I had 3 years ago already showed an enlarged heart, but also that each morning when I get up it feels like I'm gonna die for my heart is beating so fast, I'm really starting to wonder if I'm not scheduled to soon be one of the next names on that frightful growing list of deaths from heart attacks...

So, DC, and though I know the info has already been posted a million times, could you please take advantage of L. Slice's new thread to list, AGAIN, all the measures/supps that can be taken to prevent/help deal with potential cardiac disaster... such info can never be given enough. Thank you.

I don't like hearing this! I know there are studies that show Curcumin has helped with the left ventricle. Also, when you wake up feeling like that, are you sure it's not sleep apnea?

 

[Stewie]

Hate to admit it, but my HDL has been even lower than Little Slice's... for years now.

And considering the ultrasound I had 3 years ago already showed an enlarged heart, but also that each morning when I get up it feels like I'm gonna die for my heart is beating so fast, I'm really starting to wonder if I'm not scheduled to soon be one of the next names on that frightful growing list of deaths from heart attacks...

So, DC, and though I know the info has already been posted a million times, could you please take advantage of L. Slice's new thread to list, AGAIN, all the measures/supps that can be taken to prevent/help deal with potential cardiac disaster... such info can never be given enough. Thank you.

Hello JC

Did you happen to correct your iron deficiency? Couple other things. As Bio pointed out, is there a possibility that you may have sleep apnea? Or do you drink alcohol prior to bedtime?

 

[Stewie]

Sometimes I just have to stare in awe at the knowledge contained in the majority of your posts Stewie. Seriously, thank you for contributing to the board, you're one of those guys that I check your post history just to see what else I can absorb.

Thanks, I appreciate your kind words

Although, I'm just another face in the crowd.