Can’t make progress - thoughts?!

[TheOtherOne55]

I dont want to beat a dead horse because im just repeated what everyone else has said @20sam91 , but get a coach.
I know you train hard, I know you eat pretty good but coach-less guys run into the saaame problem over and over again.
You're not dieting down (or just not hard enough) and then you're not pushing up weight enough. You're caught in a yo-yo game of 11% up to 16% or so over and over and over again. By the end, your look and BW are basically identical to what it was for 5 years. Nothing realllly changes. I see this with basically everryyy lifestyle guy ive ever coached. Hell, i did it for years.

A good coach will work with you, diet you down to uncharted territory, then push you back up to uncharted territory. The end result will result in you looking completely different. I know that for a FACT.

 

[20sam91]

I dont want to beat a dead horse because im just repeated what everyone else has said @20sam91 , but get a coach.
I know you train hard, I know you eat pretty good but coach-less guys run into the saaame problem over and over again.
You're not dieting down (or just not hard enough) and then you're not pushing up weight enough. You're caught in a yo-yo game of 11% up to 16% or so over and over and over again. By the end, your look and BW are basically identical to what it was for 5 years. Nothing realllly changes. I see this with basically everryyy lifestyle guy ive ever coached. Hell, i did it for years.

A good coach will work with you, diet you down to uncharted territory, then push you back up to uncharted territory. The end result will result in you looking completely different. I know that for a FACT.

Really interesting point, what is the upper bounds of what you consider acceptable in terms of bodyfat %? I’m definitely willing to give a little to get a little. A few guys have mentioned the advantages of getting shredded first which is definitely food for thought.

 

[workingclass]

it's amazing what a good coach can do for you

took me a while to pull the trigger then after a few years of being coached I was only upset that I hadn't done it sooner

wldv spent less years spinning my tires

if the first one doesn't work out try again but also give the coaches program time to work

can't tell you how many times I would look at myself thinking nothing was working but my coach reassured me it was

only after looking back at my pics months down the line was I able to see myself which is typical for bodybuilding

if you're still unsure about a coach just remember that even the pro's have coaches

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Really interesting point, what is the upper bounds of what you consider acceptable in terms of bodyfat %? I’m definitely willing to give a little to get a little. A few guys have mentioned the advantages of getting shredded first which is definitely food for thought.

It is hard to go purely on numbers when it comes to BF, and most testing practices are not extremely accurate, but I think 18% for most guys is the cap. If you get a coach, they will have you do picture checkins weekly same pose, same place, same time of day and will be able to tell from those photos what you are at, what needs to stay the course, what needs to change.

Based on your one image, I agree with others, get way leaner, I mean like down in the low single digit body fat lean, strip all the fat off. Gets you a perfect base for a productive growth phase, and gets insulin sensitivity super high. A coach is not going to care as much what you are actual % is, they are going to know when you are lean enough, and then when you are the upper limits of how much bodyfat you have in the growth phase. This is not a linear process, it is a project.

I personally like to use mini cuts, once you start getting a little too soft in the growth phase, do a hard PSMF for a short period of time. A mini cut will strip off a little bit of that extra fluff, but with high protein, intensity high in the gym, you wont loss muscle, come right back the growth phase.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Hi guys, long time lurker, infrequent poster.

Some background: 34 years old, been lifting since I was 15 (started at around 140lbs), now 34 & ~210lbs (6’1”). Trained clean until 21 (around 190lbs but soft). Have used between 400mg-600mg test for the vast majority of the time I’ve been on with the exception of the last few months of last year where I went up to 750mg. I’ve been absolutely meticulous with eating & training (been a DC disciple since I was 17 & trained that way ever since). Have eaten 400g protein for extended periods (never less than 350g if on cycle), don’t drink / party etc. have really pushed the cals (4500+ with EVOO & PB in shakes etc) at times & just gotten much fatter without gaining much muscle (highest body weight was 228 but bodyfat was way too high).

The issue is this: I really feel like I should have gotten more out of lifting than I have. I was always a skinny kid & definitely do not consider myself to have good genetics for lifting (not an excuse, would love to be proven wrong).

I’m on the verge of just doing trt for life (been on 150mg since Jan) & getting into CrossFit / cycling etc to just be lean & maintain what I’ve got because I can’t keep banging my head against the wall trying to be a bodybuilder. I would love to be 230-240lbs lean but short of abusing myself with drugs I cannot see any way of getting there. Anyone been in a similar position & figured a way to start gaining again? Not really sure what more I can do other than ‘more drugs’ but I would love to hear your thoughts.

You asked me to comment. I really have to question a couple things. From 15 to 21 you gained 50lbs but with some smoothness. From 21 to 34 (13 years!!!!) WITH THE HELP OF JUICE you gained 20lbs (roughly). I dont get it. Every new time user of juice usually gains 25-30lbs with the help of sauce. EVERYONE ALMOST ACROSS THE BOARD! And then the guys who really know their shit training and eating wise go far past that and the guys who only know juice and only juice never make those ongoing further gains into massiveness. They lacked the eating and training knowledge on how to do so and never learn it...so to them its only "well i guess i got to abuse myself with these many mg's to make gains"...they have no clue otherwise.

How do you go 13 years and only gain 20lbs in the best time of your life to make gains (20's and 30's)?! I dont understand it and it makes me question your training. You should be at this time using massive poundages and something tells me you are not. There is no way you can be 210lbs of 6'1 with the help of juice if you are squatting 405lbs for 20 reps, using 150lb dumbells on presses for reps, rowing 350 plus in bent over rows for reps, smith shoulder pressing 315 plus for reps and on and on and on thru each bodypart. Something is amiss here. And i feel if you are truthful to all of us you will say you arent even remotely in those ranges. Because you cannot be small in those ranges. So there was some kind of disconnect here (in my opinion) training wise on what needed to get done to get over each new plateau. Me you would NEVER SEE ME go 13 years in my 20's to gain 20lbs. Thats running on a treadmill and wasting valuable time.

There is a reason why you never see a massive bodybuilder sticking with 135lb inclines and 135lb squats and 95lb barbells shoulder presses their entire career. If it was that easy to get massive everyone would be massive. There is a reason massive people can do things like this

Whether you DC train or volume train or do any training method known to man....if you are not going to progress up into weights that create a massive bodybuilder you are going to fail. Unless you have god given mesomorphic genetics that make you an outlier (which virtually no white person has) or unless you sauce your way there in milligrams. Which a lot of people do....the problem most havent figured out the equation yet on how to live past 55 years old doing it that way.

So sorry to be blunt but you asked me to comment. ME? I would never take no for an answer and I would NEVER allow myself to go 13 years in my prime (with the help of juice) to gain 20lbs. I would not have it. I would not stand for it. I would figure out what I am missing in the equation. IMO there is fake testosterone problem going on or there is some serious reconsideration of what it takes to be a 6'1" 280lb beast in the offseason. Just in comparison...my training partner sought me out in the gym many years ago 6 foot tall 157lbs if i remember right. Retired marine. He is black so he has a slight step up but he is in his 50's. Lifetime natural and will never juice. Its his choice, his mantra and thats ok. I dragged that MF thru workouts that made other training partners quit in the past. 50 rep leg presses, paused smith squats, conquering every weight stack on every machine in a gym with gympins and plates added until we have to switch gyms. He has told me in confidence that there were times "he could not walk the next day and almost quit but he kept silent about it and forged on" That guy is 223lbs right now with 19 inch arms...lifetime natural. Its not even a conversation. Now if that guy can do it in his 50's.....he would be 275 with juice (which i dont want for him and he does not want for himself either, not smart to go up in weight like that at that advanced age). But your story makes me question if you are realizing how hardcore you need to train and the progression you need to make weights and reps wise to become a massive bodybuilder. If it was easy...these message boards and heck bodybuilding social media wouldnt be 90% based on "how the heck do i get bigger, can someone help me?"....its hard.

 

[bbxtreme]

You asked me to comment. I really have to question a couple things. From 15 to 21 you gained 50lbs but with some smoothness. From 21 to 34 (13 years!!!!) WITH THE HELP OF JUICE you gained 20lbs (roughly). I dont get it. Every new time user of juice usually gains 25-30lbs with the help of sauce. EVERYONE ALMOST ACROSS THE BOARD! And then the guys who really know their shit training and eating wise go far past that and the guys who only know juice and only juice never make those ongoing further gains into massiveness. They lacked the eating and training knowledge on how to do so and never learn it...so to them its only "well i guess i got to abuse myself with these many mg's to make gains"...they have no clue otherwise.

How do you go 13 years and only gain 20lbs in the best time of your life to make gains (20's and 30's)?! I dont understand it and it makes me question your training. You should be at this time using massive poundages and something tells me you are not. There is no way you can be 210lbs of 6'1 with the help of juice if you are squatting 405lbs for 20 reps, using 150lb dumbells on presses for reps, rowing 350 plus in bent over rows for reps, smith shoulder pressing 315 plus for reps and on and on and on thru each bodypart. Something is amiss here. And i feel if you are truthful to all of us you will say you arent even remotely in those ranges. Because you cannot be small in those ranges. So there was some kind of disconnect here (in my opinion) training wise on what needed to get done to get over each new plateau. Me you would NEVER SEE ME go 13 years in my 20's to gain 20lbs. Thats running on a treadmill and wasting valuable time.

There is a reason why you never see a massive bodybuilder sticking with 135lb inclines and 135lb squats and 95lb barbells shoulder presses their entire career. If it was that easy to get massive everyone would be massive. There is a reason massive people can do things like this

Whether you DC train or volume train or do any training method known to man....if you are not going to progress up into weights that create a massive bodybuilder you are going to fail. Unless you have god given mesomorphic genetics that make you an outlier (which virtually no white person has) or unless you sauce your way there in milligrams. Which a lot of people do....the problem most havent figured out the equation yet on how to live past 55 years old doing it that way.

So sorry to be blunt but you asked me to comment. ME? I would never take no for an answer and I would NEVER allow myself to go 13 years in my prime (with the help of juice) to gain 20lbs. I would not have it. I would not stand for it. I would figure out what I am missing in the equation. IMO there is fake testosterone problem going on or there is some serious reconsideration of what it takes to be a 6'1" 280lb beast in the offseason. Just in comparison...my training partner sought me out in the gym many years ago 6 foot tall 157lbs if i remember right. Retired marine. He is black so he has a slight step up but he is in his 50's. Lifetime natural and will never juice. Its his choice, his mantra and thats ok. I dragged that MF thru workouts that made other training partners quit in the past. 50 rep leg presses, paused smith squats, conquering every weight stack on every machine in a gym with gympins and plates added until we have to switch gyms. He has told me in confidence that there were times "he could not walk the next day and almost quit but he kept silent about it and forged on" That guy is 223lbs right now with 19 inch arms...lifetime natural. Its not even a conversation. Now if that guy can do it in his 50's.....he would be 275 with juice (which i dont want for him and he does not want for himself either, not smart to go up in weight like that at that advanced age). But your story makes me question if you are realizing how hardcore you need to train and the progression you need to make weights and reps wise to become a massive bodybuilder. If it was easy...these message boards and heck bodybuilding social media wouldnt be 90% based on "how the heck do i get bigger, can someone help me?"....its hard.

I miss the old days on here where everyone wasn’t afraid to post this shit.

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

I miss the old days on here where everyone wasn’t afraid to post this shit.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[20sam91]

You asked me to comment. I really have to question a couple things. From 15 to 21 you gained 50lbs but with some smoothness. From 21 to 34 (13 years!!!!) WITH THE HELP OF JUICE you gained 20lbs (roughly). I dont get it. Every new time user of juice usually gains 25-30lbs with the help of sauce. EVERYONE ALMOST ACROSS THE BOARD! And then the guys who really know their shit training and eating wise go far past that and the guys who only know juice and only juice never make those ongoing further gains into massiveness. They lacked the eating and training knowledge on how to do so and never learn it...so to them its only "well i guess i got to abuse myself with these many mg's to make gains"...they have no clue otherwise.

How do you go 13 years and only gain 20lbs in the best time of your life to make gains (20's and 30's)?! I dont understand it and it makes me question your training. You should be at this time using massive poundages and something tells me you are not. There is no way you can be 210lbs of 6'1 with the help of juice if you are squatting 405lbs for 20 reps, using 150lb dumbells on presses for reps, rowing 350 plus in bent over rows for reps, smith shoulder pressing 315 plus for reps and on and on and on thru each bodypart. Something is amiss here. And i feel if you are truthful to all of us you will say you arent even remotely in those ranges. Because you cannot be small in those ranges. So there was some kind of disconnect here (in my opinion) training wise on what needed to get done to get over each new plateau. Me you would NEVER SEE ME go 13 years in my 20's to gain 20lbs. Thats running on a treadmill and wasting valuable time.

There is a reason why you never see a massive bodybuilder sticking with 135lb inclines and 135lb squats and 95lb barbells shoulder presses their entire career. If it was that easy to get massive everyone would be massive. There is a reason massive people can do things like this

Whether you DC train or volume train or do any training method known to man....if you are not going to progress up into weights that create a massive bodybuilder you are going to fail. Unless you have god given mesomorphic genetics that make you an outlier (which virtually no white person has) or unless you sauce your way there in milligrams. Which a lot of people do....the problem most havent figured out the equation yet on how to live past 55 years old doing it that way.

So sorry to be blunt but you asked me to comment. ME? I would never take no for an answer and I would NEVER allow myself to go 13 years in my prime (with the help of juice) to gain 20lbs. I would not have it. I would not stand for it. I would figure out what I am missing in the equation. IMO there is fake testosterone problem going on or there is some serious reconsideration of what it takes to be a 6'1" 280lb beast in the offseason. Just in comparison...my training partner sought me out in the gym many years ago 6 foot tall 157lbs if i remember right. Retired marine. He is black so he has a slight step up but he is in his 50's. Lifetime natural and will never juice. Its his choice, his mantra and thats ok. I dragged that MF thru workouts that made other training partners quit in the past. 50 rep leg presses, paused smith squats, conquering every weight stack on every machine in a gym with gympins and plates added until we have to switch gyms. He has told me in confidence that there were times "he could not walk the next day and almost quit but he kept silent about it and forged on" That guy is 223lbs right now with 19 inch arms...lifetime natural. Its not even a conversation. Now if that guy can do it in his 50's.....he would be 275 with juice (which i dont want for him and he does not want for himself either, not smart to go up in weight like that at that advanced age). But your story makes me question if you are realizing how hardcore you need to train and the progression you need to make weights and reps wise to become a massive bodybuilder. If it was easy...these message boards and heck bodybuilding social media wouldnt be 90% based on "how the heck do i get bigger, can someone help me?"....its hard.

Wow.. thanks so much for the response DC. I was certainly soft at 190 pre-juice (much softer than I am now) but I do take your point - I feel like I’ve been spinning my wheels for a long time.

I genuinely don’t feel like my training intensity is an issue (I’m very OCD about not giving up on a set until I’m 100% sure I cannot move the weight or it’ll bug me for the rest of the day) & I’m beyond meticulous with my diet because I know I have to be 100% on to hope to get anywhere - on the rare occasion I miss a meal during the day I’ll set an alarm to eat it during the night. I really don’t believe my test is bunk / dramatically under-dosed (had friends who made great progress on the same stuff & trt doses put me in high normal range).

You’re absolutely correct - I can’t squat 405 for 20 (or close to it). I’ve always been of the mindset that strength = size (if eating correctly) but I am not getting appreciably stronger / more muscular either way. Every time I go back up with the sauce I’ll try something slightly different (lower/higher rep ranges / slower negatives / trying to find exercises more mechanically beneficial / more red meat vs chicken etc) but I am at the point now where I can’t see how I could ever say squat 405 for 20 (which I have felt for a long time but just kept going in blind faith I guess). Eating has never been a problem & I’ve no doubt I could be 240lbs fat as hell in no time at all if I had to be (even eating ‘clean’) - 240lbs even remotely lean though is another story entirely.

I hope you didn’t take my post as ‘I’m doing DC training & it doesn’t work’.. I stuck with it for so long because after initial volume training / 5x5 / iron addicts routines it was by far the program I was progressing the most with. In my mind if I can’t get there with DC then I can’t get there with anything. Thanks so much again for the reply.. massively appreciate your input!

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Really interesting point, what is the upper bounds of what you consider acceptable in terms of bodyfat %? I’m definitely willing to give a little to get a little. A few guys have mentioned the advantages of getting shredded first which is definitely food for thought.

I think you read my comment wrong. Somehow, out of that, you got "where is the upper terms of acceptable bf?"
No man. My point is you're starting your "im ready to grow!" sessions at 13%...already fat. And then surprise surprise you get to the unacceptable realm of BF% quiiick. If i were you, i'd do a hard reset with coach.

I know you arent at alll a newbie, but this is the shit i tell new guys all the time. Why the f are you trying to grow from here? the BEST GAINS of your life will come from you getting uncomfortably lean, leaner than you have ever been and for sure leaner than youve ever pushed yourself to be. THEN grow from there. Growth from 7% is a hellll of a lot different than growth from 12%. First of all, think of how much looonger of a growth period you can have when you actualllly start that periood lean as hell...