Can’t use Nolva… what is next best?

[specter]

I did have gyno surgery

But you still get swellig ? so you didnt have the entire gland removed ?

 

[Type-IIx]

Progesterone receptor?

So maybe ralox is okay with Deca and or tren. Always thought clomid and nolva, back years and years ago were a no no with Deca. What about hcg, like say there's some extra leftover , from being off or on trt and try is about to end and deca cycle begin okay with a deca cycle (or tren) ?

Ralox does seem the best SERM (IMO) and Aromasin the best AI (IMO). I'm working on a sort of quasi-article here that I've sent the rough draft over to OTT with that will explain why I think an AI makes the most sense with the use of progestagenic androgens like trenbolone, nandrolone, especially as they're often used in combination with test. But Nolva has the most evidence supporting its use for gynecomastia, is regarded as "well tolerated" (though I dispute this and think it's very harsh on bone metabolism) and does has a proven growth suppression effect in breast tissue (though it's not a 1=1 comparison, gynecomastia from non-AAS vs. gynecomastia from AAS-induced etiology). I don't see much support for the use of Clomid personally.

Now with hCG, what do you mean "some extra leftover, from being off or on TRT and try is about to end and deca cycle begin okay with a deca cycle (or tren)?" Please just restate this more clearly and I'll try to answer.

 

[DrZaius7]

I dont see how "Tamoxifen can make your gyno symptoms worse", its more than likely the level androgen levels increasing and therefore oestrogen.

You don’t need to understand why or how. Just accept that us what my personal experience is. Why argue with me about what my personal experiences have been?

I’m asking what is the best SERM Next to Nolva. Can anyone please help with that?

Suggestions and opinions welcome on that topic

 

[DrZaius7]

But you still get swellig ? so you didnt have the entire gland removed ?

There is not just this one gland… bro science.
I get pain just as I felt before. behind my nip is totally flat, no puffiness either. Mostly The pain and some tissue around the outer edges is more sore to the touch

 

[DrZaius7]

Ralox does seem the best SERM (IMO) and Aromasin the best AI (IMO). I'm working on a sort of quasi-article here that I've sent the rough draft over to OTT with that will explain why I think an AI makes the most sense with the use of progestagenic androgens like trenbolone, nandrolone, especially as they're often used in combination with test. But Nolva has the most evidence supporting its use for gynecomastia, is regarded as "well tolerated" (though I dispute this and think it's very harsh on bone metabolism) and does has a proven growth suppression effect in breast tissue (though it's not a 1=1 comparison, gynecomastia from non-AAS vs. gynecomastia from AAS-induced etiology). I don't see much support for the use of Clomid personally.

Now with hCG, what do you mean "some extra leftover, from being off or on TRT and try is about to end and deca cycle begin okay with a deca cycle (or tren)?" Please just restate this more clearly and I'll try to answer.

Personally Aromasin works the best for me. Better than arimidex.

 

[DrZaius7]

@DrZaius7 perhaps this is helpful: I plugged Ralox into SwissTargetPrediction and it does not interact with PR whatsoever.

That’s an interesting website. How do you use it? What happens when you plug in Tamoxifen?

 

[DrZaius7]

Here is a reference to Nolvadex up-regulating progestin receptors. So everyone doesn’t think I’m crazy. Personal experience wins out anyway

https://www.evolutionary.org/nolvadex-tamoxifen-citrate

 

[DrZaius7]

Another reference to Nolvadex up-regulating progestin receptors under ‘Nolvadex side effects ‘

https://muscleandbrawn.com/bodybuilding-supplements/clomid-vs-nolvadex/

 

[Type-IIx]

That’s an interesting website. How do you use it? What happens when you plug in Tamoxifen?

For Tamoxifen it shows interaction with PR (but does not specify whether it acts as an antagonist or an agonist; I believe it acts as an antagonist) - but alas, cancer cell lines behave quite differently from healthy human cells. I'll just say "don't know, don't really care because it's an effective anti-gynecomastic agent."

 

[Alzadosghost]

Another reference to Nolvadex up-regulating progestin receptors under ‘Nolvadex side effects ‘

https://muscleandbrawn.com/bodybuilding-supplements/clomid-vs-nolvadex/

If you have all the answers to your own questions why ask anyone else lol this thread is dog shit

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Ralox does seem the best SERM (IMO) and Aromasin the best AI (IMO). I'm working on a sort of quasi-article here that I've sent the rough draft over to OTT with that will explain why I think an AI makes the most sense with the use of progestagenic androgens like trenbolone, nandrolone, especially as they're often used in combination with test. But Nolva has the most evidence supporting its use for gynecomastia, is regarded as "well tolerated" (though I dispute this and think it's very harsh on bone metabolism) and does has a proven growth suppression effect in breast tissue (though it's not a 1=1 comparison, gynecomastia from non-AAS vs. gynecomastia from AAS-induced etiology). I don't see much support for the use of Clomid personally.

Now with hCG, what do you mean "some extra leftover, from being off or on TRT and try is about to end and deca cycle begin okay with a deca cycle (or tren)?" Please just restate this more clearly and I'll try to answer.

I'm in agreement for raloxifene being the best serm. There's no question in my mind I've been prescribed from a " friend dermoligist for a few years now, ralox, he's been godsend. The fact that it helps build bone mineral density that no other serm does. In fact, as far as I know all other serms reduce bone mineral density. How this happens is more estrogen in bone if I remember correct.

As far as hcg left over, say I complete a cycle and want to stimulate some natural product of testosterone, obviously it's going to work best when on low doses , trt, like my doses of 70-140 mgs I've done many years now, or off everything, it's a personal choice, after having come off everything. At 5000 ius ,I do 250 ius e3d for two months , there's still some left. Now I want to start a deca cycle, would using hcg with Deca be safe ? cause any progesterone sides? This would probably be a future cycle ,as deca solo possibly , as I'm thinking this may be my go to off-season cycle for many years to come, maybe even pre contest, but what I'm after to keep androgen ratio lowest possible to keep my hair, as hair has miniturized some and don't to keep it from not doing any more.

 

[jimmy orangaflop]

For Tamoxifen it shows interaction with PR (but does not specify whether it acts as an antagonist or an agonist; I believe it acts as an antagonist) - but alas, cancer cell lines behave quite differently from healthy human cells. I'll just say "don't know, don't really care because it's an effective anti-gynecomastic agent."

I was waiting for you to say this. After reading the old Tamoxifen studies, your post here answered all my questions lol

 

[Type-IIx]

I'm in agreement for raloxifene being the best serm. There's no question in my mind I've been prescribed from a " friend dermoligist for a few years now, ralox, he's been godsend. The fact that it helps build bone mineral density that no other serm does. In fact, as far as I know all other serms reduce bone mineral density. How this happens is more estrogen in bone if I remember correct.

As far as hcg left over, say I complete a cycle and want to stimulate some natural product of testosterone, obviously it's going to work best when on low doses , trt, like my doses of 70-140 mgs I've done many years now, or off everything, it's a personal choice, after having come off everything. At 5000 ius ,I do 250 ius e3d for two months , there's still some left. Now I want to start a deca cycle, would using hcg with Deca be safe ? cause any progesterone sides? This would probably be a future cycle ,as deca solo possibly , as I'm thinking this may be my go to off-season cycle for many years to come, maybe even pre contest, but what I'm after to keep androgen ratio lowest possible to keep my hair, as hair has miniturized some and don't to keep it from not doing any more.

Correct wrt ralox, it better modulates bone estrogen concentrations and the effects are noticeable in training (whereas Nolva feels like your bones ache, with Ralox you feel fine).

My preference for the use of hCG is to use intramuscular or subcutaneous doses of 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). HCG is effectively long-acting LH & hMG (Menopur, Menotropin) provides FSH & LH.

If spermatogenesis & HPG axis functioning is a goal, this protocol should be implemented ASAP, whether on a blast or a cruise.

Now, if on a low dose cruise (e.g., 75 mg Test weekly), there is some concern for a trend increase in E2 (elevating the E/T ratio) & if on a blast with a progestagenic androgen (e.g., nandrolone, trenbolone, MENT) there are concerns that estrogens up-regulate PR synthesis, activation of progesterone receptors has been linked to reduced expression of AR, thereby hampering the androgen-mediated inhibition on breast tissue growth observed in condition of normal hormonal homeostasis, and that progestins may further cause gynecomastia by enhancing the effect of estradiol on breast tissues. This argues for, if you are part of the population that does see increased estrogens vis a vis hCG (+hMG), the use of an AI like Aromasin in addition to the hCG/hMG protocol outlined.

EXAMPLE 1: Test/Primo 375/400 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday)
EXAMPLE 2: Test/Tren/Deca 500/500/500 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)
EXAMPLE 3: Test 75 mg weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)

 

[Swifto]

You don’t need to understand why or how. Just accept that us what my personal experience is. Why argue with me about what my personal experiences have been?

I’m asking what is the best SERM Next to Nolva. Can anyone please help with that?

Suggestions and opinions welcome on that topic

Yes I do, because "bodybuilders" and "steroid users" are inaccurate inconsistent subjects. Did you get BW when on Tamoxifen when using 19-Nors?

 

[Swifto]

Here is a reference to Nolvadex up-regulating progestin receptors. So everyone doesn’t think I’m crazy. Personal experience wins out anyway

https://www.evolutionary.org/nolvadex-tamoxifen-citrate

Thats not a reference, thats a garbage article that got it wrong, much like everything else on EVO.

Did you look at any of their "references"? I assume not.

As I said previously, Tamoxifen has been shown to show PgR expression in cancer cell lines in breast tissue and the endometrium in females. Neither of which apply to you.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Correct wrt ralox, it better modulates bone estrogen concentrations and the effects are noticeable in training (whereas Nolva feels like your bones ache, with Ralox you feel fine).

My preference for the use of hCG is to use intramuscular or subcutaneous doses of 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). HCG is effectively long-acting LH & hMG (Menopur, Menotropin) provides FSH & LH.

If spermatogenesis & HPG axis functioning is a goal, this protocol should be implemented ASAP, whether on a blast or a cruise.

Now, if on a low dose cruise (e.g., 75 mg Test weekly), there is some concern for a trend increase in E2 (elevating the E/T ratio) & if on a blast with a progestagenic androgen (e.g., nandrolone, trenbolone, MENT) there are concerns that estrogens up-regulate PR synthesis, activation of progesterone receptors has been linked to reduced expression of AR, thereby hampering the androgen-mediated inhibition on breast tissue growth observed in condition of normal hormonal homeostasis, and that progestins may further cause gynecomastia by enhancing the effect of estradiol on breast tissues. This argues for, if you are part of the population that does see increased estrogens vis a vis hCG (+hMG), the use of an AI like Aromasin in addition to the hCG/hMG protocol outlined.

EXAMPLE 1: Test/Primo 375/400 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday)
EXAMPLE 2: Test/Tren/Deca 500/500/500 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)
EXAMPLE 3: Test 75 mg weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)

You fibbed ,you said you didn't know about hcg or hmg. Hmmm ok. Anyways , I've expiremented with hcg and found I prefer 225ius is sweet spot right now. Even 300 seems to give a tad more estrogen sides than wanted. Puffier face. More emotional. I ve done 1000 ius per shot and it worked okay a run and then I seemed to have too many estrogen sides ,so now I prefer lower doses eod or e3d. Moreover, this cause less estrogen spike.

Ralox is used on hcg to block estrogen , on hcg and trt. It appears if I'm using hcg on deca or tren raloxifene would be a good idea.

I'm in agreement with Dorian Yates that trens max dose is about 200 mgs. Obviously I'm hesitant to do it bc I have used it before 150 mgs max dose, for two five week cycles and hair seemed to miniturized. Everyone's goals are different and substances could and should be tailored to their goals and measurements, so to speak.

 

[DrZaius7]

For Tamoxifen it shows interaction with PR (but does not specify whether it acts as an antagonist or an agonist; I believe it acts as an antagonist) - but alas, cancer cell lines behave quite differently from healthy human cells. I'll just say "don't know, don't really care because it's an effective anti-gynecomastic agent."

Does that website work for natural substances also or just pharma drugs?
Be interested to see if bloodroot comes up. I have been researching that as a progesterone receptor blocker which could be beneficial for Deca and Tren cycles.

From what I’ve read it attaches to the progesterone receptor pretty strongly but then has no effect. Therefore preventing progesterone from binding.

 

[Type-IIx]

Does that website work for natural substances also or just pharma drugs?
Be interested to see if bloodroot comes up. I have been researching that as a progesterone receptor blocker which could be beneficial for Deca and Tren cycles.

From what I’ve read it attaches to the progesterone receptor pretty strongly but then has no effect. Therefore preventing progesterone from binding.

You can build out the chemical structure for any identified active molecule(s). So if an herbal preparation of some sort contains identified active ingredients you'd build out the structure for those. Seems like a waste of time for some, presumably, herbal crap, honestly. Herbal compounds certainly have been identified that are useful, but are generally characterized by low bioavailability and/or brief duration of action in man. Usually, they serve as model compounds for pharmaceutical development of more useful compounds.

 

[Nivp]

You don’t need to understand why or how. Just accept that us what my personal experience is. Why argue with me about what my personal experiences have been?

I’m asking what is the best SERM Next to Nolva. Can anyone please help with that?

Suggestions and opinions welcome on that topic

Nothing is best to nolva. You can try n see what works for you

 

[DrZaius7]

You can build out the chemical structure for any identified active molecule(s). So if an herbal preparation of some sort contains identified active ingredients you'd build out the structure for those. Seems like a waste of time for some, presumably, herbal crap, honestly. Herbal compounds certainly have been identified that are useful, but are generally characterized by low bioavailability and/or brief duration of action in man. Usually, they serve as model compounds for pharmaceutical development of more useful compounds.

Hey man would you mind punching Winstrol / Stanozolol into that website and see if it says progesterone antagonist OR agonist.
I‘m finding conflicting results in my research.

Much Appreciated