Carb cycling vs Small carb differences between TD and NTD.

[LAGman91]

Does carb cycling provide any benefits extra for fat loss compared to straight calories every day or just a little more carbs on training days?
From what I've understood by watching various videos online of Paul Barnett and Justin Harris, is that you get better performance on the days you take them.

However, that doesn't make sense to me since we know that glycogen restorage takes up to 48 hours and it's not something that happens that acutely.
Another way of thought that I have seen on forums is the thyroid upregulation with the carbs and the fact that on the rest days you're more glycogen depleted, hence more fat burning biased. Is there anything I'm missing?

There is also the psychological component That does play a role, in my honest opinion. Also, anecdotally, I've seen that sometimes when I have done refeeds, I even wake up lighter the next day.

 

[BetterLateThanNever]

For me, it makes a big difference in how long I can stay insulin sensitive in a surplus. During a dieting phase, I guess this part doesn’t matter, but I still carb cycle year round out of habit.

 

[traininsane11]

Lots of people have had great success with it but that’s not to say they wouldn’t of had the same success just following a different approach like the one you mentioned

Overall bigger picture probably no real difference as with nearly all of these training/diet/drug nuance things

But as with most of these things try it see how you like it

 

[comedycentral]

I do minimal carb such as two pieces of fruit on non training days and then much higher carb days. The only reason is that I’m lazy and can’t be bothered to reduce marginally and measure. Not saying it’s right but I do seem to suck carbs up when I’ve not had them for a day or two

 

[Orly23]

There is no benefit in carb cycling . Another bro science

 

[bigjay77]

I found a benefit from it. But my high day really had to be high and as close to zero fat as I could get. I was dieting for about 6 months. When I ramped that day up it help my lethargy and my fat loss continued. Its a different storage tank in the body, if glycogen is depleted you can eat a surplus of calories in carbs and store most of it.

 

[sir_robin14]

From a pure physiology standpoint it probably makes no difference. As has been stated before, neither muscle growth or fat loss happen on a 24 hour time frame. Furthermore damaged muscles can’t properly uptake glucose and most peoples pre workout carbs are not being synthesised into muscle glycogen by the time they train. Practically speaking though, most people are hungrier on training days and food will probably create greater motivation. More carbs around training will also allow you to maintain higher/more stable blood sugar around training which will increase performance. That means better adherence and more muscle retention. I also don’t think you can ignore anecdotal evidence when so many top pros and coaches swear by it.

 

[Flocci]

Ive never noticed a difference from undulating my carbohydrates outside of feeing more flat, tired and hungry on the low days, and im always hungry anyways so its just an annoyance to have low days. I'd rather have things more static and have the difference be the intraworkout shake that i dont have on a restday most of the time and i might cut down my carbs a bit since i dont have as much glycogen depletion that day, but not really a fan.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

I implement "refeed" or high days for people, but the frequency, and amount by which we bump is individually based. Some people really prefer to have them on off days, so that next session back they have a bit of a boost, other guys like em on leg days. It also depends how your meals are structured, most of that high carb intake is going to affect the workout for the following day. Some coaches do like every 4th day is a high day or something like that. I find the benefit to pure mostly psychological over physiological. Yes, obviously there is a physiological response in the form of muscle glycogen replenishment, but for most people it is something to look forward to...eating more food lol. Also there is usually a much better night sleep on the higher days as we all know sleeping goes to hell later in deep fat loss phases. It is a balance, more fat burning takes place in a glycogen depleted state, but a constant state of depletion leads to bad training, more fatigue, poorer sleep. So from those stand points they are beneficial, but do I beleive that have any tangible effect on upregulating thyroid, or on leptin and ghrelin, I do not. When I am dieting myself, I always use them about every 5th day, for me, it is just something to look forward to, like "what am I going to get to eat with the extra calories today?" lol. There is empirical data that refeeds CAN bump the metabolism, but in those studies the refeeds were like 3-4 days long, and the bump wasn't significant enough to make it realistic to implement routinely. Metabolic rate fluctuates throughout a day and week, but it is obviously easiest for us to organize our intake into 24 hour blocks. That said, I have had success dieting a few non competitors who did much better doing a weekly calorie load to do what they want with. i.e. instead of saying eat 3k cal a day, you 21k calories for the week, with the caveat of ensuring they at least kept fats and protein in a specific range on the daily basis.

 

[snuklov]

I implement "refeed" or high days for people, but the frequency, and amount by which we bump is individually based. Some people really prefer to have them on off days, so that next session back they have a bit of a boost, other guys like em on leg days. It also depends how your meals are structured, most of that high carb intake is going to affect the workout for the following day. Some coaches do like every 4th day is a high day or something like that. I find the benefit to pure mostly psychological over physiological. Yes, obviously there is a physiological response in the form of muscle glycogen replenishment, but for most people it is something to look forward to...eating more food lol. Also there is usually a much better night sleep on the higher days as we all know sleeping goes to hell later in deep fat loss phases. It is a balance, more fat burning takes place in a glycogen depleted state, but a constant state of depletion leads to bad training, more fatigue, poorer sleep. So from those stand points they are beneficial, but do I beleive that have any tangible effect on upregulating thyroid, or on leptin and ghrelin, I do not. When I am dieting myself, I always use them about every 5th day, for me, it is just something to look forward to, like "what am I going to get to eat with the extra calories today?" lol. There is empirical data that refeeds CAN bump the metabolism, but in those studies the refeeds were like 3-4 days long, and the bump wasn't significant enough to make it realistic to implement routinely. Metabolic rate fluctuates throughout a day and week, but it is obviously easiest for us to organize our intake into 24 hour blocks. That said, I have had success dieting a few non competitors who did much better doing a weekly calorie load to do what they want with. i.e. instead of saying eat 3k cal a day, you 21k calories for the week, with the caveat of ensuring they at least kept fats and protein in a specific range on the daily basis.

Is your 5th day to maintenance, still a deficit or in fact a surplus over your TDEE (for that given day)?

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Is your 5th day to maintenance, still a deficit or in fact a surplus over your TDEE (for that given day)?

It really is not specifically either, but it is almost always going to be right around maintenance. For example, my typical approach is drop fat down by about 10 grams, and protein by about 10, and add in about 100 carbs. Keep in mind I am natty, and only coach nattys, so most guys are in the 2500-3500 maintenance range, and often getting as low as 1,000-1250 range in deep prep. So when dealing with that caloric range, those high day numbers matter, unlike many pros who are cutting on 4k calories and eating hundreds of grams of carbs. All of that said, yes even with the reduced fats and protein and added carbs, the calories may surpass the initial deficit but never over maintenance. I usually start with a 250 calorie deficit to start a diet for myself and clients, and titrate down from there. I have found it to be more beneficial to start a small deficit and ride it until we get close to a stall and cut again rather than go bigger up front and ride it longer. It almost always works out better to start small and chip away than go bigger. The body can be weird. I have found that if you start at 250 and say you get 3-4 weeks of sustained loss and then a slow down, you get a few more weeks out of just another 150-200 calorie bum, than if you started at a 500 cal deficit and let it ride for the same amount of time. You are allowing the person to eat more food during that duration, but equaling the same result at the end of that span. So the high day might take you above your deficit, but it never takes you over your maintenance.

 

[snuklov]

It really is not specifically either, but it is almost always going to be right around maintenance. For example, my typical approach is drop fat down by about 10 grams, and protein by about 10, and add in about 100 carbs. Keep in mind I am natty, and only coach nattys, so most guys are in the 2500-3500 maintenance range, and often getting as low as 1,000-1250 range in deep prep. So when dealing with that caloric range, those high day numbers matter, unlike many pros who are cutting on 4k calories and eating hundreds of grams of carbs. All of that said, yes even with the reduced fats and protein and added carbs, the calories may surpass the initial deficit but never over maintenance. I usually start with a 250 calorie deficit to start a diet for myself and clients, and titrate down from there. I have found it to be more beneficial to start a small deficit and ride it until we get close to a stall and cut again rather than go bigger up front and ride it longer. It almost always works out better to start small and chip away than go bigger. The body can be weird. I have found that if you start at 250 and say you get 3-4 weeks of sustained loss and then a slow down, you get a few more weeks out of just another 150-200 calorie bum, than if you started at a 500 cal deficit and let it ride for the same amount of time. You are allowing the person to eat more food during that duration, but equaling the same result at the end of that span. So the high day might take you above your deficit, but it never takes you over your maintenance.

You have me intrigued, I'm keen to hear more about your approach.

 

[snuklov]

It really is not specifically either, but it is almost always going to be right around maintenance. For example, my typical approach is drop fat down by about 10 grams, and protein by about 10, and add in about 100 carbs. Keep in mind I am natty, and only coach nattys, so most guys are in the 2500-3500 maintenance range, and often getting as low as 1,000-1250 range in deep prep. So when dealing with that caloric range, those high day numbers matter, unlike many pros who are cutting on 4k calories and eating hundreds of grams of carbs. All of that said, yes even with the reduced fats and protein and added carbs, the calories may surpass the initial deficit but never over maintenance. I usually start with a 250 calorie deficit to start a diet for myself and clients, and titrate down from there. I have found it to be more beneficial to start a small deficit and ride it until we get close to a stall and cut again rather than go bigger up front and ride it longer. It almost always works out better to start small and chip away than go bigger. The body can be weird. I have found that if you start at 250 and say you get 3-4 weeks of sustained loss and then a slow down, you get a few more weeks out of just another 150-200 calorie bum, than if you started at a 500 cal deficit and let it ride for the same amount of time. You are allowing the person to eat more food during that duration, but equaling the same result at the end of that span. So the high day might take you above your deficit, but it never takes you over your maintenance.

Do you operate high,medium and low days or just high and low?

 

[Josefein421]

To me the science makes sense when I listen to someone like Justin explain it. Is it "necessary"? Obviously not. But isnt Training Day/Off Day just another form of cycling? Just 2 options vs 3. I mean we could "carb cycle" with any number of day templates. I think The more days that vary the more adherence becomes a concern with the detail. I think most people have success with Training Day/Off Day/Training Day With Free Meal...l which basically equates to their High Day.

Whatever you can adhere to best for longest is that gives steady progress is the ticket. Perfect diet means nothing if you can stick to it from adherence or complexity!