Carb Timing

[sammy555]

I do believe training carbless gives you an edge in staying lean with post workout cardio ifv you use gh an hour before workout. I'm my leanest working with shelby and macros the same every meal except my one carbless meal pre workout. As Kaladryn said macros overall are the main thing. Only reason i train carbless is that I'm stronger that way

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[bickers1989]

I always have carbs around my workout. I have done keto and pushing for more then 5 reps was hard

 

[nategeezy82]

Carb timing makes no difference. Carbs get stored as glycogen in the body, mostly by the liver. Most of the body's cells need glucose, especially the brain. If your glycogen levels get extremely low then your body will start breaking down muscle protien and convert it into glucose

 

[mytreefiddy]

If your glycogen levels get extremely low then your body will start breaking down muscle protien and convert it into glucose

How low are we talking here???..... I would imagine someone in a carb depletion mode would fall prey to this???? ..like precontest?

 

[Beaver24]

Crb timing works wonder for me. I train afternoon cardio pre breakfast. No carbs till lunch and I lose bodyfat. Eat carbs around lifting I gain tremdous strength and muscle.

Here is the deal there is no cookie cutter. I had a local BB tell me I did not eat enough carbs. I double my carbs eat it at every meal put on 5% bf in 2 months.

Everyone is different keep all things the same change one factor for 3 weeks. Do a bodybuilding show you'll see what works for you.

 

[sammy555]

How low are we talking here???..... I would imagine someone in a carb depletion mode would fall prey to this???? ..like precontest?

I think you'd have to be in full on keto mode it won't happen in a few days so long as there's a little test in the system. A few 0 carb days a week seem to actually help me gain muscle due to improved partitioning when I do eat my carbs. I don't lose weight but do get stronger and slightly leaner over time. I feel like fucking shit doing them though tbh. Training carbless the day after a 0 carb day im strong as fuck despite feeling like I'm going to die lol

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[Pharm_Fed]

Carb timing makes no difference. Carbs get stored as glycogen in the body, mostly by the liver. Most of the body's cells need glucose, especially the brain. If your glycogen levels get extremely low then your body will start breaking down muscle protien and convert it into glucose

Ummm, no.

First of all, the majority of glycogen is stored in your muscles, not you liver.

Second, glucose is only very minimally needed in the body and what little bit is necessary can easily be made from the protein we consume. ESPECIALLY someone eating high protein meals frequently like a bodybuilder. Breaking down muscle for protein would take a long time of starvation before taking place. Preservation of muscle will be even more obvious in someone taking AAS.

While it is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose (ie. the really small cells or cells with tendrils too small for mitochondria), the brain is much more efficient running on ketones. It's all just used to create ATP, and when you examine the mitochondria after ATP synthesis from both substrates there is less crap left over when using ketones. A more efficient energy source means faster restoration of membranes after a depolarizing electrical action potential and a reduction in free radicals created.

There are actually several benefits to running off ketones, and several downsides to burning glucose all day every day. Eat carbs around your workout to fuel, sustain and recover from glycolytic activity, and eat fat to run your body the rest of the day. I believe carb timing does matter.

 

[sammy555]

Ummm, no.

First of all, the majority of glycogen is stored in your muscles, not you liver.

Second, glucose is only very minimally needed in the body and what little bit is necessary can easily be made from the protein we consume. ESPECIALLY someone eating high protein meals frequently like a bodybuilder. Breaking down muscle for protein would take a long time of starvation before taking place. Preservation of muscle will be even more obvious in someone taking AAS.

While it is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose (ie. the really small cells or cells with tendrils too small for mitochondria), the brain is much more efficient running on ketones. It's all just used to create ATP, and when you examine the mitochondria after ATP synthesis from both substrates there is less crap left over when using ketones. A more efficient energy source means faster restoration of membranes after a depolarizing electrical action potential and a reduction in free radicals created.

There are actually several benefits to running off ketones, and several downsides to burning glucose all day every day. Eat carbs around your workout to fuel, sustain and recover from glycolytic activity, and eat fat to run your body the rest of the day. I believe carb timing does matter.

I used to belive carb timing mattered (and on paper it should)until shelby put my on a steady state approach. Macros the same every meal except 1 carbless best results ever. I only compare myself to my previous self and don't claim to be any great bodybuilder though. There are guys much more advanced than me who agree with you(I think John meadows for one) but also advanced guys that agree with me. I think for us guys with naturally good insulin sensitivity that respond well to carbs this is certainly true anyway. Mabey some people get better results timing as they pick up insulin resistance of they eat carbs all the time. I've toyed with most approaches and found so long as macros add up there really is nothing in it really. I don't even do the simple carbs after training now just prepare 5 carb meals exactly the same each day for convenience. This is just my experience and opinion. That said I fucking hate low carb days as I feel like Shit on them. Strange thing is I lose bodyfat real easy so it's not like my body doesn't know how to burn fat. It wasn't really until I hit single digit bodyfat that low carb made me feel like Shit. Even 150 which is my current low carb days leave me feeling somewhat brain forged and lethargic. I do get 300 on training days just to keep metabolism going which helps. I was steady state until this week, just pushing for final bit of bodyfat loss now and then going for rebound. Carb City hear we come

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[Pharm_Fed]

I used to belive carb timing mattered (and on paper it should)until shelby put my on a steady state approach. Macros the same every meal except 1 carbless best results ever. I only compare myself to my previous self and don't claim to be any great bodybuilder though. There are guys much more advanced than me who agree with you(I think John meadows for one) but also advanced guys that agree with me. I think for us guys with naturally good insulin sensitivity that respond well to carbs this is certainly true anyway. Mabey some people get better results timing as they pick up insulin resistance of they eat carbs all the time. I've toyed with most approaches and found so long as macros add up there really is nothing in it really. I don't even do the simple carbs after training now just prepare 5 carb meals exactly the same each day for convenience. This is just my experience and opinion. That said I fucking hate low carb days as I feel like Shit on them. Strange thing is I lose bodyfat real easy so it's not like my body doesn't know how to burn fat. It wasn't really until I hit single digit bodyfat that low carb made me feel like Shit. Even 150 which is my current low carb days leave me feeling somewhat brain forged and lethargic. I do get 300 on training days just to keep metabolism going which helps. I was steady state until this week, just pushing for final bit of bodyfat loss now and then going for rebound. Carb City hear we come

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As a reasonable person, and logically/scientifically inclined, I must concede that the same thing will not work the same way for everyone, regardless of the science to support it.

My advice/posts are based on my own experience coupled with the literature I've read on the subject by people smarter than I. The post you quoted was mostly meant to correct the misinformation posted by nategeezy. No need to scare someone out of trying something that has sound science behind it and works very well for many people by posting hyperbole and mistruths.

 

[sammy555]

People absolutely should try different things and find what works for them. The whole carb thing is so individual but so many people think there way is the only way (not you ) takes so long to give each method a fair shot is the only problem but I think I've tried just about most. I did like the carbless post workout protocol for results but didn't like feeling like Shit all day after training. With Hindsight though I think it worked so well for me just because it forced me to eat more protein.

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[nategeezy82]

The postexercise “anabolic window" is a highly misused and abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you’re an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin and AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA and insulin levels to peak higher and stay elevated above baseline even longer. (Human insulinotropic response to oral ingestion ... [Amino Acids. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI)

So much for the anabolic peephole and the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (and will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn’t support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

 

[nategeezy82]

To add to this… Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It’s likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don’t know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours. (Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar prote... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI)

 

[nategeezy82]

Basically all that matters is that you get your required macros in from the time you wake until the time you go to bed.

 

[sammy555]

That's why I don't sweat post workout nutrition.i have s chicken breast and some nuts and tuna about an hour before. Brown rice veg chicken breast tuna and nuts after. That's shits getting broken down and feeding the body all day

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[Pharm_Fed]

The postexercise “anabolic window" is a highly misused and abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you’re an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin and AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA and insulin levels to peak higher and stay elevated above baseline even longer. (Human insulinotropic response to oral ingestion ... [Amino Acids. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI)

So much for the anabolic peephole and the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (and will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn’t support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

- Perhaps you referenced the wrong study but the link you provided addresses the differences between WPH and WPI. There is no reference to elevation length, AA levels, or anything about carbs for that matter.

- Unless these studies were done on previously trained individuals, who perform intense training and are on AAS (which they weren't) they are not exactly pertinent to anyone here. Doing a few unilateral leg exercises in a few "healthy males" is hardly the same as a brutal leg workout for a bodybuilder on AAS.

To add to this… Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It’s likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don’t know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours. (Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar prote... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI)

- Again the study doesn't support your claim. They specifically state that the 24 hour protein response period is for myofibrillar hypertrophy. This is of little relevance to a bodybuilder, but may matter for a strength athlete. Myofibrillar hypertrophy may result in a small increase in muscle size, but is primarily going to increase the number of actin and myosin contractile proteins in the muscle resulting in a stronger muscle. Bodybuilders are generally more concerned with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is much more conducive to achieving muscle size with less regard to strength.

That same study also says "Regardless of condition, rates of mixed muscle protein and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis were similarly stimulated at FED and EX-FED." indicating there was no increase in protein synthesis from performing the exercise. To me, this indicates the the "unilateral leg exercises" were minimally stimulating and ineffective at stimulating mTOR and as such is a poor experiment to determine the effect of intense training on protein synthesis, and once again has nothing to do with carb timing.

 

[nategeezy82]

There's just no helping some people. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is only responsible for about 20% of your growth. A lot of farmers that I know wake up and go out in the fields and work hard all day, come in at nite and eat a huge meal and they are all big boys and don't try to talk to me about genetics. I bought into the nutrient timing for many years because I was brainwashed by the supplement industry like many others. I eat anywhere from 2-5 times a day and I love it, it's much more convienent, especially when vacationing. If you like to eat every 2 hours then go right ahead. It doesn't matter if you eat 2 times or 10 times as long as you're getting what you need to support your growth. Your body is equipped for survival, it's very resilient. I'm bigger and stronger than I ever was when I was racing home to eat my post workout meal. People that try this approach won't like it at first but the body adapts

 

[Pharm_Fed]

There's just no helping some people. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is only responsible for about 20% of your growth. A lot of farmers that I know wake up and go out in the fields and work hard all day, come in at nite and eat a huge meal and they are all big boys and don't try to talk to me about genetics. I bought into the nutrient timing for many years because I was brainwashed by the supplement industry like many others. I eat anywhere from 2-5 times a day and I love it, it's much more convienent, especially when vacationing. If you like to eat every 2 hours then go right ahead. It doesn't matter if you eat 2 times or 10 times as long as you're getting what you need to support your growth. Your body is equipped for survival, it's very resilient. I'm bigger and stronger than I ever was when I was racing home to eat my post workout meal. People that try this approach won't like it at first but the body adapts

Now you're talking about meal frequency? Would you care to address any of the points I've made regarding the original topic? Or you could just continue to deflect and talk about the huge farmers you know

FWIW I eat when I'm hungry, which is more frequent some days than others...not that that has anything to do with carb timing *sigh*

 

[nategeezy82]

There's no arguing with fools. There's plenty of info to support what I'm talking about. For those who doubt it, try it for a month or so and see how it goes, i think you'll be surprised. So far you've offered nothing but your opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if you looked like your avatar. Have a good day

 

[Pharm_Fed]

There's no arguing with fools. There's plenty of info to support what I'm talking about. For those who doubt it, try it for a month or so and see how it goes, i think you'll be surprised. So far you've offered nothing but your opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if you looked like your avatar. Have a good day

Lol. That's for sure. I've offered facts backed by science. You've offered studies that have nothing to do with the topic and instead of an argument you have given stories of farmers. For the sake of not ruining this thread I'll just agree to disagree.

BTW, personal attacks are usually a sign of desperation. Just FYI. And not that it matters but I look nothing like my avatar.

 

[sammy555]

Basically all that matters is that you get your required macros in from the time you wake until the time you go to bed.

This I do agree with. In line slitting it into small meals to keep digestion easy and farting down but never found s difference in timing

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