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Cardio Confusion

RicPhoenix

Featured Member
Featured Member
Joined
May 18, 2003
Messages
374
Some say long and slow....others say interval training...which is best?

I have seen some research that says if you do intervals it keeps the metabolism high throughout the day, not just when you are doing the cardio as in the long slow type. Another paper said that if you go with long and slow cardio you have to still try to really get the heart rate high and sweat it out to burn the calories.

I must admit I have never seen a top competitive bodybuilder doing interval training regardless of how much its said to be best....I see them doing up to 2 hours a day...long and slow. Has anyone seen top bodybuilders or pros doing intervals? :confused:

What is your experience? Whats best for you?
 
My .02

Im bar far means a pro but I can get down to extremely low bodyfats at a weight of 205. I own a life fitness elipitcal its in my basement. Most days I do 1 hour, without using the hands part of it, and stay at 90rpms for 1 hour giving me a supposedly 1000cals, then 1-2 days a week, I do Hiit, I break it up into 20-30 min sessions, with 3 sprints per 5 min set to give me 100 cals per 5 mins, heartis pumping. Im soaked no matter which method I do, I think the idea is life is too short to do 1 hour of cardio each day. I just think if I were soley working out and my job was too look good that I would use slow go cardio to help perserve muscle, less stress ?
 
The best way to know exactly what to do is through heart rate monitoring.
If you keep your heart rate, under about 155, it differs for everyone, you primarily use your aerobic energy system, and burn mostly fat and carbohydrates.
As soon as you increase your heart rate to over 155, you start to use some of the anaerobic system, which breaks into muscle stores. If you do a lot of high intensity cardio with a heart rate exceeding 155 you will burn muscle, which as a lifter or bodybuilder you don't want to do. If you stay under 155, you will not break into the muscle store, and can go for longer periods with using fat as an energy source.
 
beta oxidation

hence fatty acid utilization is the area of metabolism that u would want to be in. Which is a low to moderate heart rate level i think 60-70% max heart rate. At rest skeletal muscle/organs feast on fatty acids, it is a plentiful energy source and it take much O2 to do so. The argument is why not expend 1000 kcals in a 25 min then 500 kcals in a hr. My answer IMO is that the higher intensity cardio pulls from a glycogen energy source.... and I dont know about u I dont want to expend glycogen for cardio but rather for weight training. Which would use a combination creatine phosphate system and glycolysis. So I find a cardio that I can tolerate (which i hate all) and do it for 45 min to an hr pending on how fat I am and how much I need to do in a day, ive done anywhere from 5 hrs a day to 30 min. I think the equation 220 - your age then take 60-70% of that stay at that heart rate during cardio and ull be fine. U have to remem though 1 single lbs of fat can be anywhere from 3,000-3,500 kcal :eek: thats gonna take some time to cut down and if u have 20 lbs of fat on u, u do the math. Its a marathon not a sprint do pace yourself.
gooey
 
Gooey has it correct.
There actually is a more complicated equation; But to be simple:
Its heart rate of 220 - (your age) = MaxVO2 (max volume Oxygen uptake).
To get your (target heart rate) % of that-high intensity (burns carbs and IMO muscle) is 80-90% of that maxVO2 number; 60-70% is low intensity (burns fat) of maxVO2.
To me I lose size doing too much of any cardio-I do 1-2x wk low intensity for 20min.
 
seems to me walking is just as good as running... just takes longer to get where you are going. :D

seriously aren't calories burned just calories burned when you boil it down to it's primal level?
 
From Clarence Bass' Website...

What About Fat Loss?

Angelo Tremblay, Ph.D., and his colleagues at the Physical Activities Sciences Laboratory, Laval University, Quebec, Canada, challenged the common belief among health professionals that low-intensity, long-duration exercise is the best program for fat loss. They compared the impact of moderate-intensity aerobic exercise and high-intensity aerobics on fat loss. (Metabolism (1994) Volume 43, pp.814-818)

The Canadian scientists divided 27 inactive, healthy, non-obese adults (13 men, 14 women, 18 to 32 years old) into two groups. They subjected one group to a 20-week endurance training (ET) program of uninterrupted cycling 4 or 5 times a week for 30 to 45 minutes; the intensity level began at 60% of heart rate reserve and progressed to 85%. (For a 30-year-old, this would mean starting at a heart rate of about 136 and progressing to roughly 170 bpm, which is more intense than usually prescribed for weight or fat loss.)

The other group did a 15-week program including mainly high-intensity-interval training (HIIT). Much like the ET group, they began with 30-minute sessions of continuous exercise at 70% of maximum heart rate reserve (remember, they were not accustomed to exercise), but soon progressed to 10 to 15 bouts of short (15 seconds progressing to 30 seconds) or 4 to 5 long (60 seconds progressing to 90 seconds) intervals separated by recovery periods allowing heart rate to return to 120-130 beats per minute. The intensity of the short intervals was initially fixed at 60% of the maximal work output in 10 seconds, and that of the long bouts corresponded to 70% of the individual maximum work output in 90 seconds. Intensity on both was increased 5% every three weeks.

As you might expect, the total energy cost of the ET program was substantially greater than the HIIT program. The researchers calculated that the ET group burned more than twice as many calories while exercising than the HIIT program. But (surprise, surprise) skinfold measurements showed that the HIIT group lost more subcutaneous fat. "Moreover," reported the researchers, "when the difference in the total energy cost of the program was taken into account..., the subcutaneous fat loss was ninefold greater in the HIIT program than in the ET program." In short, the HIIT group got 9 times more fat-loss benefit for every calorie burned exercising.

How can that be?

Dr. Tremblay's group took muscle biopsies and measured muscle enzyme activity to determine why high-intensity exercise produced so much more fat loss. I'll spare you the details (they are technical and hard to decipher), but this is their bottom line: "[Metabolic adaptations resulting from HIIT] may lead to a better lipid utilization in the postexercise state and thus contribute to a greater energy and lipid deficit." In other words, compared to moderate-intensity endurance exercise, high- intensity intermittent exercise causes more calories and fat to be burned following the workout. Citing animal studies, they also said it may be that appetite is suppressed more following intense intervals. (Neither group was placed on a diet.)

The next time someone pipes up about the fat-burn zone, ask them if they are familiar with the Tabata and Tremblay research reports.

[You'll find high-intensity aerobic workouts for bodybuilding in Ripped 3 and for balanced fitness, strength and endurance, in Lean For Life; both books are in the products section of this site. Routines specifically applying Tabata-type intervals are explained in chapter 5 of Challenge Yourself. Keep in mind that VO2max can only be measured in the laboratory; you'll have to estimate 170% of VO2 max. Don't try to make it too complicated. Simply chose a pace that brings you near exhaustion on the final 20-second rep; you should become more fatigued with each rep. Increase the pace as your condition improves. It's always better to underestimate your ability at the start. Begin a little slower than you think you can handle, and then adjust the pace from workout to workout. Don't attempt high-intensity intervals unless you are in good condition; they're not appropriate for beginners. Note the medical warning which follows.]

Warning

The Tremblay group and Dr. Tabata, in his e-mail response to Richard Winett, emphasize this warning: "High-intensity exercise cannot be prescribed for individuals at risk for health problems or for obese people who are not used to exercise."


The only caveat I can think of is that it depends on your carb intake. If you're doing a Jay Cutler type diet and are dieting on (relatively) high carbs, then this will probably work. However if you're on the low end (.5 g per lb), then this could be risky in you lose muscle easily.

I think of it like this: you do weights, then you do HIIT cardio. You've probably devastated glycogen stores. Therefore the body will have to use the fat stores as fuel for energy. It should also store glycogen preferentially.

The slow state cardio will spare your glycogen stores, but less fat will be burned overall as we all know that the body's preferred fuel is carbohydrate. So if it still has carbs that it can use, it will use those instead of the fat stores.

So steady state cardio will burn mostly fat during it, but little to no fat afterwards. HIIT cardio will eat into glycogen tremendously, but fat utilization will be high afterwards. Just the way I think, no proof or anything. I tend to hold onto muscle (slow metabolism), so I use HIIT with no problems. Guys who tend to burn muscle off should probably stick to steady state.
 
P.S. Mark Dugdale does at least 70% on his cardio sessions. He also is a big fan of High Intensity Training as well, curiously. Low sets and high intensity in training as well as cardio, so there's one. And he was shredded at the Ironman. Skip la Cour (yeah, I know, he's not a pro) does this as well and his conditioning is razor sharp.
 
having lost muscle by overdoing it with HIIT cardio, im gona say that a combination of cardio will work well....i dont see a problem with burning glycogen during cardio so long as you are taking in sufficient carbs because after your done with the cardio, what fuel source will you primarily burn? fat,, bingo....and supposedly you will burn more calories throughout the day from the hi intensity style thus burning more bodyfat...however, i think that doing this type of cardio exclusively 7 days a week, double sessions, or anything close to that will cause a lot of stress on your adrenal glands and probably a lot of cortisol release,, so i think doing maybe 1-2 sessions a week would be ideal and then a mix of moderate and slow should work well...im eager to try this method out when i diet down for next years shows....interested to hear other opinions or corrections on my view..
 
las year it was my first year of doing cardio for the first time,i never need it before,but i always was on very low carb diet so i guess thats what helped me to gert cut with no cardio,but this year with WYLDEONE i did diferent diet and i was doing intens cardio like Gooey sayed and it worked magic for me too,i guess everyoen is diferent,like Mike sayed he can drop muscle with doing cardio.so here is no same thing what would work for you and me or somebody else.you need to find out yourself whats working the best for you.
 
I did interval , got cut BUT was tired like hell and didn't recover
then I ddi longer sessions (about 1 hour) less intense and got as much as cut but recovered 1000 times better !!
 
I know homonunculus really promotes High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) for cardio. Myself, I find it too difficult to do effectively on a machine (which is how I end up having to do cardio - cause it rains so much here).

I believe doing something like on a track - run the straights and walk the curves, or run up stairs and walk down. I'd love to be able to try it, but haven't been able to.
 

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