Clomid+Proviron PCT or alternative to TRT (Scientific proof study shows this works)

[Anabolic_Beast]

May have found the solution. Been trying the clomid+proviron pct for past month with good results. Got off synthetic testosterone completely but didn't want to crash and wanted to still functional optimally both in and outside of the gym whilst still feeling "on" and to recover natural testosterone LH and FSH and sperm without messing with HCG at all (which can be counterproductive for fertility if used too high, too much or for too long)

Combined mesterolon-clomiphene citrate therapy for treatment of oligospermia - PubMed

42 subfertile patients with normal levels of plasma testerone (26 subnormal, suffering from oligospermia) have been treated with a combination of clomiphene citrate (50 mg Clomid daily) and mesterolon (50 mg Proviron daily) over a period of at least 3-6 months. The treatment resulted in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You do the proviron 50mg first thing in morning on non training days or up to 125mg on training days and you dose the 25mg clomid every night right before bed..which gives a kick to natural testosterone stimulation overnight. Now of course..to play it 100% safe..you wouldn't mess with an androgen like proviron but an androgen like proviron allows you to keep your aggression high pre workout and still feel good being OFF whilst trying to recover natural testosterone with the climid and offsetting the emotional and estrogen side effects on clomid with addition of proviron. Sounds perfect to me.

 

[bad rad]

Proviron seems effective for many without Clomid added. The Clomid seems to make it work much better.

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men - PubMed

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[goback2013]

what do you think about clomid vs enclomophene ?

 

[pickapeck]

Interesting

 

[bad rad]

what do you think about clomid vs enclomophene ?

The main difference is side effects. Most of Clomid side effects are attributed to zuclomifene.

It consists of a racemic mixture of zuclomifene (~38%) and enclomifene (~62%), each of which has unique pharmacologic properties. Whereas zuclomifene is described as mildly estrogenic, enclomifene is described as antiestrogenic.

 

[goback2013]

so do you think enclomifene is a better alternative to use with this protocol ?
any sponsors that offer enclomifene ?

 

[bad rad]

so do you think enclomifene is a better alternative to use with this protocol ?
any sponsors that offer enclomifene ?

Looks like it.

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Anabolic_Beast]

Yeah there is definitely something incredible about the proviron+clomid experiment. For those of you who can't tolerate climid..nolvadex is an excellent alternative! Personally Nolvadex does not carry those vision and horrible mood sides like clomid does..and isn't as hard on the system..but of course everybody is different.
I love it when I see that people experiment away from the general consensus way of doing things. Especially when there are scientific based studies backing up the effectiveness of alternative protocols such as Proviron+Clomid..etc..go for it.
I cringe at the thought of how many people just go off everything (including test) and just take clomid+nolvadex as pct with zero androgens. Of course there's going to be side effects...but by adding in androgen such as proviron..it can make pct a breeze and you still regain HPTA function with the climid and/or nolvadex or even HCG as an alternative. I know that some people believe that proviron is suppressive and counterproductive for pct. But MINIMALLY suppressive..and with a SERM or HCG added..that becomes a zero issue thing. At least keep the muscles hard..the drive going strong..the energy up and maybe even keep making gains all the way through pct..
after all..you busted your ass so hard for these gains..at least Harden and solidify it and keep your workload strong in gym. Motivation is not a problem when your blood is saturated with androgens lol.

 

[madg]

Anabolic_beast thank you brother for this post

Question , sory english not my native language

You use this ( clomid/nolva+ provi ) as pct or time off ?

Reason i am asking is this sounds good to me to run for off time so even RBC falls back in range ... or is my thinking wrong ?

Respect

 

[bad rad]

Anabolic_beast thank you brother for this post

Question , sory english not my native language

You use this ( clomid/nolva+ provi ) as pct or time off ?

Reason i am asking is this sounds good to me to run for off time so even RBC falls back in range ... or is my thinking wrong ?

Respect

The best answer is maybe due to Proviron. There's are studies showing no HPTA impact at low doses, ie, 25-50mg daily. Above that it's sketchy since the studies bump the dose way up. At 300mg + it will affect your recovery/HPTA.

The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study) - PubMed

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[gib68sg]

Yeah there is definitely something incredible about the proviron+clomid experiment. For those of you who can't tolerate climid..nolvadex is an excellent alternative! Personally Nolvadex does not carry those vision and horrible mood sides like clomid does..and isn't as hard on the system..but of course everybody is different.
I love it when I see that people experiment away from the general consensus way of doing things. Especially when there are scientific based studies backing up the effectiveness of alternative protocols such as Proviron+Clomid..etc..go for it.
I cringe at the thought of how many people just go off everything (including test) and just take clomid+nolvadex as pct with zero androgens. Of course there's going to be side effects...but by adding in androgen such as proviron..it can make pct a breeze and you still regain HPTA function with the climid and/or nolvadex or even HCG as an alternative. I know that some people believe that proviron is suppressive and counterproductive for pct. But MINIMALLY suppressive..and with a SERM or HCG added..that becomes a zero issue thing. At least keep the muscles hard..the drive going strong..the energy up and maybe even keep making gains all the way through pct..
after all..you busted your ass so hard for these gains..at least Harden and solidify it and keep your workload strong in gym. Motivation is not a problem when your blood is saturated with androgens lol.

I've heard of people having crazy sides from clomid but I legit have zero. What doses were causing this for you?

 

[Anabolic_Beast]

I've heard of people having crazy sides from clomid but I legit have zero. What doses were causing this for you?

For clomid First tried 50mg once per day for a week...then down to 25mg then even at 12.5mg per day..then 25mg every other day..too moody no matter what and eyes had this weird fluid build up sensation and blurring.. then just replaced with nolva 10mg. Clo..It works VERY well for getting back sack size for sure and volume absolutely (especially with proviron). But the strange mental effects and the pressure feeling in eye and blurry vision which was directly attributed to clo since it went away within 5 days of stopping the last 12.5mg dose...just wasn't worth it...AT ALL! This is the perfect example..you and me..of how so many people react so differently to the same compounds...from physical to mental effects. Nolvadex is a very good replacement IMHO..not as good for fertility..but gets the job done close enough with the proviron.

 

[goback2013]

For clomid First tried 50mg once per day for a week...then down to 25mg then even at 12.5mg per day..then 25mg every other day..too moody no matter what and eyes had this weird fluid build up sensation and blurring.. then just replaced with nolva 10mg. Clo..It works VERY well for getting back sack size for sure and volume absolutely (especially with proviron). But the strange mental effects and the pressure feeling in eye and blurry vision which was directly attributed to clo since it went away within 5 days of stopping the last 12.5mg dose...just wasn't worth it...AT ALL! This is the perfect example..you and me..of how so many people react so differently to the same compounds...from physical to mental effects. Nolvadex is a very good replacement IMHO..not as good for fertility..but gets the job done close enough with the proviron.

do you think if you started out at 12.5 eod, you'd have better success ? sounds like maybe you had systemic buildup, even though you reduced dosage over time.
would like to know if a sponsor carries enclomifene.

 

[pickapeck]

The best answer is maybe due to Proviron. There's are studies showing no HPTA impact at low doses, ie, 25-50mg daily. Above that it's sketchy since the studies bump the dose way up. At 300mg + it will affect your recovery/HPTA.

The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study) - PubMed

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Plus in the setting discussed in here it is being applied to an already suppressed HPTA. Before stampoing this legit I would have to see bloodwork. Maybe I missed it but the first set of abstracts posted in this thread did not at all address the scenario we are looking to apply this clomid/proviron protocol.

 

[bad rad]

Here's one that's more applicable to our goals when using low doses.

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[pickapeck]

Here's one that's more applicable to our goals when using low doses.

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In our case we are already walking into this clomid/Proviron treatment with HPTA suppression meaning LH undetectable and likely very low FSH. In the abstract above the men were pathospermic but no indication that LH/FSH were crashed like post cycle. Adding a mild androgen that has little but still some impact on LH/FSH that are already crashed is different compared to a scenario where the patient is close to or actually eugonadal.

 

[bad rad]

In another thread there's evidence that Clomid will support HPTA function in the presence of low dose androgens, 10mg Androgel daily. I'm waiting on my blood work trying the protocol with daily Test Cyp injections. My interest in Proviron isn't maintaining LH/FSH production but it appears to increase sperm production independent of those hormones.

 

[bad rad]

I've heard of people having crazy sides from clomid but I legit have zero. What doses were causing this for you?

I get blurry vision at 25mg daily.

 

[pickapeck]

In another thread there's evidence that Clomid will support HPTA function in the presence of low dose androgens, 10mg Androgel daily. I'm waiting on my blood work trying the protocol with daily Test Cyp injections. My interest in Proviron isn't maintaining LH/FSH production but it appears to increase sperm production independent of those hormones.

I think it's a cool experiment. Interested to see how you make out.

 

[bad rad]

I think it's a cool experiment. Interested to see how you make out.

It didn't work for me but did for others. I have other issues with pituitary damage from TBI.