Complete IGF Pep Cycle - Thoughts

[PHIL HERNON]

Exactly

I am definitely noticing some changes in the mirror. Considerable. As Drake said, endurance is up too. I'm doing 35-45 minutes of cardio after 90-120 minutes of lifting. I'm not resting more than 20-30 seconds between sets. I think I might order some cjc w/ dac to really shred the fat. Not sure what an appropriate dosing protocol would be though.

I may have confused some people.

DES 1-3/GPE pre-workout
DES 1,3 (Long chain) intra-workout
LR3 post-workout

I mixed them up a couple of posts back.

Perfect way to research!

 

[DrNat]

I've read everything from before bed to pre-workout to intra-workout, to post-workout. I have yet to find one concise answer on when to take LR3. I have researched and none of it is specific.

Just curious to where you have been reading? I dont want to start any arguments but if your open to hearing about what i have learnt from studies and on other .. private .. board, from someone more knowledgeable than most/if not all then i can try and explain what i have learnt so far.

I am FARRRRRR from a expert or peptides or an authority on the subject either, but simply taking what you hear from others who have not done any reading on pubmed/science direct studies then its what i have seen referred as bro science. This can be anecdotal and useful at time, but other times dangerous.

Why do i bother to write this? Partially because its my career to educate and help people with their health. I also do not want to see anyone hurt themselves and last of all like in the current situation in Australia, have the media get a hold of stories of people hurting themselves with peptides, make a big controversy about it and enough noise to get it banned..

So before i give my time I need to know if its wanted. If not enjoy doing the potentially wrong thing to your body.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

People discuss timing issues with peptides like GHRP6 and CJC1295 and IGF-des because the pulse of these peptides is very brief, lasting 1-3 hours depending on method of delivery (IM vs SC).

IGF-LR3 however has a longer half-life compared to those above listed peptides so timing the dose is not so important. Everyother day would work well with LR3. I can tell you from personal experience the time or two I got ahold of GOOD lr3, after every 100ug injection it gave me a pump that lasted about a day or so depending on diet (amount of carbs I ate). Coming off using IGFlr3 my body would still respond to carbs with a pump (everybody who has used good IGF probably knows what I'm talking about) for about 24-48 hours after the last injection.

 

[DrNat]

People discuss timing issues with peptides like GHRP6 and CJC1295 and IGF-des because the pulse of these peptides is very brief, lasting 1-3 hours depending on method of delivery (IM vs SC).

IGF-LR3 however has a longer half-life compared to those above listed peptides so timing the dose is not so important. Everyother day would work well with LR3. I can tell you from personal experience the time or two I got ahold of GOOD lr3, after every 100ug injection it gave me a pump that lasted about a day or so depending on diet (amount of carbs I ate). Coming off using IGFlr3 my body would still respond to carbs with a pump (everybody who has used good IGF probably knows what I'm talking about) for about 24-48 hours after the last injection.

Due to the long half life of LR3 timing is actually more important, good pump from LR3 is one benefit yes but at the sake of what ? Stopping production of MGF which is an actual proliferator of muscle, not a exogenous differentiator like LR3.

 

[nidnoy]

Just curious to where you have been reading? I dont want to start any arguments but if your open to hearing about what i have learnt from studies and on other .. private .. board, from someone more knowledgeable than most/if not all then i can try and explain what i have learnt so far.

I am FARRRRRR from a expert or peptides or an authority on the subject either, but simply taking what you hear from others who have not done any reading on pubmed/science direct studies then its what i have seen referred as bro science. This can be anecdotal and useful at time, but other times dangerous.

Why do i bother to write this? Partially because its my career to educate and help people with their health. I also do not want to see anyone hurt themselves and last of all like in the current situation in Australia, have the media get a hold of stories of people hurting themselves with peptides, make a big controversy about it and enough noise to get it banned..

So before i give my time I need to know if its wanted. If not enjoy doing the potentially wrong thing to your body.

Yes, please share, as stated before there is a lot of info about when and how to use, but not all of it is consistent, and much probably comes from personal experience and not necessarily also science.

Thanks.

 

[Dicksneeze]

I use it post-workout because there will be approximately 24-36 hours between my next dose.

Did arms today, DES 1-3 in the forearms pre, DES 1,3 in the forearms during.

It's really hard to do arms when you can't make a fist. My forearms are in pain right now. So much pain. I love the gripper. Had a guy stop me today and asked what the hell I've been doing. I of course had to lie. But yea. It's pretty legit around here. I look swollen all day long.

 

[trenseter]

Just curious to where you have been reading? I dont want to start any arguments but if your open to hearing about what i have learnt from studies and on other .. private .. board, from someone more knowledgeable than most/if not all then i can try and explain what i have learnt so far.

I am FARRRRRR from a expert or peptides or an authority on the subject either, but simply taking what you hear from others who have not done any reading on pubmed/science direct studies then its what i have seen referred as bro science. This can be anecdotal and useful at time, but other times dangerous.

Why do i bother to write this? Partially because its my career to educate and help people with their health. I also do not want to see anyone hurt themselves and last of all like in the current situation in Australia, have the media get a hold of stories of people hurting themselves with peptides, make a big controversy about it and enough noise to get it banned..

So before i give my time I need to know if its wanted. If not enjoy doing the potentially wrong thing to your body.

yes, please tell us we'r all ears!!

 

[DrNat]

yes, please tell us we'r all ears!!

Here is the first part.. if you need more i can continue. I have read a few different posts from Dat and re wrote some of it to make sense in my head and to help keep it more simple and summarised multiple threads..

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First of all, our aim is to increase anabolism right.. That’s why we want IGF-1, anabolism is all about 3 main things;

1. increasing protein synthesis
2. differentiation
3. proliferation

We get to a point with protein synthesis where our body cant do any more, why ? Because we have run out of ribosomes manufacturing plants to make more protein. Once they are maxed out we need more. The ‘plant’ is DNA, we need our body to create more manufacturing plans to create more ribosomes where the proteins can actually be made. Without these additional “DNA plants” once you max out you existing ones you no longer have additional protein synthesis thus anabolism. Things like GH / Mod GRF / GHRP / Test increase this potential new plants.

IGF-1 has a role, differentiation, which means it moving these plants into place. But we need more to be created first, and that is called proliferation.
It is the special IGF-1 called IGF-1EC (or Mechano Growth Factor) which is proliferative, NOT IGF-LR3 or DES. Mod GRF (1-29)/GHRP and pulsed GH can increase MGF (MGF is made and used in muscle cells... it is not made in the liver and sent out systemically in blood). GH elevations can also increase MGF BUT GH elevations also increase IGF-1 which can interfere with MGF.

It is more difficult to keep proliferation going then it is to bring about differentiation because differentiation always cuts short proliferation as soon as it is introduced. And that’s why when you keep using LR3 and DES at the WRONG TIME, you are stopping proliferation.

So building more DNA plants and donating them to muscle cells is hugely important. Once that new DNA is in place you can keep doing what you usually do to keep protein synthesis going in all the old and now new DNA plants.

Why is MGF-proliferation important and why do we need to make sure we are not taking anything to blunt its release. MGF occurs post workout and over the next 48 hours and then IGF-1 takes those proliferated nuclei and fuses them into muscle cells and then IGF-1, GH pulses and natural testosterone, even insulin contributes to increasing the protein synthesis which comes from the new plants.

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For those non medically minded and just want cliff notes..

How NOT to use IGF-LR3
lipolysis? IGF-1 doesn't do that in people who aren't GH deficient. It only feels that way due to the glucose disposal

Increased muscle growth "proliferation"
Mod GRF (1-29)/GHRPs (GH in general) increase IGF-1 (especially locally in muscle tissue). Local/muscle IGF-1 trumps systemic IGF-1. IGF-1 LR3 is "systemic" and will not benefit muscle much.

]Pre WO ? you will get better pumps yes, but it will interfere with the MGF your body will produce post work out due to its long half life. DES half life is shorter thus you can get the better pumps benefit and not interfere with MGF (when using Pre WO).

]Post WO ? WORST time to do it, not only did you not get the "pumps" benefit, It will interfere with the MGF your body will produce post work out.


What about the vascular effect and pump ? Yes you will get it but it will interfere with you natural MGF Post WO

How to use IGF-LR3
Get some to work in the muscle group your injecting into
micro-dose (3-5) Intra-muscular

At least 8 hours after workout, if working out early in the morning then at night, if training at night then following morning

A cycle around 4 weeks should be done AFTER you have created some new DNA plants and been proliferating (Using MGF) so you have the ability to do more protein synthesis than your previous maxed out 'plants' could offer.

Which IGF-1 helps muscle? Only MGF (IGF1-Ec) will interfere with muscle IGF-1 receptors.

So Summary
IGF-1 LR3 or IGF-1 DES:

1. Do NOT increase cell proliferation (they act as a differentiator)
2. Will interfere with endogenous post-workout MGF (cell proliferator) if administered immediately before or after a workout
3. Can inhibit lipolysis in some people
4. Can cause hypoglycemia by binding to insulin receptors
5. Are completely different than endogenous, locally created autocrine/paracrine IGF-1, which is produced by GHRP/Mod GRF 1-29
6. Can aid in healing injured tissue if micro-dosed local to injury ("trauma")

 

[DrNat]

Just incase.., ill share a great Dat quote

So how do you increase autocrine IGFs (mIGF-1)?

Mod GRF (1-29)/GHRPs or GH

You certainly don't do it with exogenous IGF-1 LR3 or IGF-1 DES.

 

[Dicksneeze]

So the cycle is over.
I wanted to wait a couple of days to let any water retention or sides come wear off Mr. Badger. All in all, I can't say I noticed much of anything change on him. I cut out his sugars for the duration of the cycle, had him on a PALEO diet, switched his cardio to maintain 120-140 bpm and still...not entirely too pleased.

While he looked like he was was having fun...the price for me wasn't and the end results weren't worth the money.
No real changes in stats nor composition save for what I can only attribute to the normal fluctuation of his weight on a day to day basis based on diet and water consumption.

Sorry ya'll.

 

[rock75]

Still no definitive answer as to when "MGF" is present other than "post workout and the next 48 hours" - so is that immediately after your last set, immediately after you rack the last weight, after u wash your hands or WHEN? I don't need to hear another DAT quote or read another DAT quote...

 

[DrNat]

Still no definitive answer as to when "MGF" is present other than "post workout and the next 48 hours" - so is that immediately after your last set, immediately after you rack the last weight, after u wash your hands or WHEN? I don't need to hear another DAT quote or read another DAT quote...

fair enough. I have learnt when it all happens, just wrapping my head around it and ill summarize it all so you guys can also understand it. Ill even use some graphs to show you. I did learn it from Dat though so... take what you will from it. Tomorrow i hope to post it all.

 

[rock75]

fair enough. I have learnt when it all happens, just wrapping my head around it and ill summarize it all so you guys can also understand it. Ill even use some graphs to show you. I did learn it from Dat though so... take what you will from it. Tomorrow i hope to post it all.

Not to take anything away from Dat cause he was a pioneer in the pep game but I blv Alpha's threads have shown that even some of his original findings/thoughts have been proven to be off.

IMO, One of the most crucial benefits of DES or LR3 is the nutrient shuttling effects - hence the "insulin like" - logically thinking one would want to flood muscles trained with nutrients to rebuild immediately post workout.

 

[Tyga]

what size slin pin did you use to research? ive been researching IM shots on my subject (first time) on his quads, and hit medial delts today. i'd like to do pectorials, but i don't want to use to long of a syringe.

i have LR3 on the way, will research it 30-60mcg in the AM since my subject works out at night.

thanks for the log

 

[Dicksneeze]

I used a 1ml syringe with a 22ga 1 inch needle to draw, then I switch to a 27 ga 1.5 inch needle to inject. Depending on your weight, from 130-200 pounds you should go in about 1 inch to make sure you get to the muscle. Over 200 and you're looking at a 1.5 inch needle.

You'll notice when you get into the muscle because you'll feel slightly more resistance and you'll feel a second "punch" as if breaks the layer between your subcutaneous tissue and muscle.

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SKIN
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SUBCUTANEOUS FAT
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MUSCLE
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[Tyga]

I used a 1ml syringe with a 22ga 1 inch needle to draw, then I switch to a 27 ga 1.5 inch needle to inject. Depending on your weight, from 130-200 pounds you should go in about 1 inch to make sure you get to the muscle. Over 200 and you're looking at a 1.5 inch needle.

You'll notice when you get into the muscle because you'll feel slightly more resistance and you'll feel a second "punch" as if breaks the layer between your subcutaneous tissue and muscle.

-----------
SKIN
-----------
SUBCUTANEOUS FAT
-----------
MUSCLE
-----------

im a rather short
5'6
155-160lb

i've got 31g 1in needles, that should suffice. thanks again