Compounds w/ The Least Impact on Heart Rate/Cardiovascular Output

[Fa Seeshus]

Same experience as those above...for me the EPO shines with anaerobic threshold training... Especially stuff that is bodyweight and plyometric in nature. So doing Burpee variations or hitting the bag for rounds is gonna get a bigger boost than a steady jog. Your HR will pop back to baseline very fast with the interval training. You also will recover faster for the next workout without having to go totally bonkers on the carb intake. Not a substitute for nutrition of course, but you can essentially push the limit one evening, eat normal and wake up the next morning for a workout without feeling depleted from the evening before.

With the whole C19 debacle (please no chicken or the egg debate here, it will lock the thread), we all might be faced with an increased risk of blood clots and strokes. Since EPO can thicken the blood and also raise BP, be very careful with it. I haven't messed with it because of the BP issues the last time around.

 

[Cerberus777]

Same experience as those above...for me the EPO shines with anaerobic threshold training... Especially stuff that is bodyweight and plyometric in nature. So doing Burpee variations or hitting the bag for rounds is gonna get a bigger boost than a steady jog. Your HR will pop back to baseline very fast with the interval training. You also will recover faster for the next workout without having to go totally bonkers on the carb intake. Not a substitute for nutrition of course, but you can essentially push the limit one evening, eat normal and wake up the next morning for a workout without feeling depleted from the evening before.

With the whole C19 debacle (please no chicken or the egg debate here, it will lock the thread), we all might be faced with an increased risk of blood clots and strokes. Since EPO can thicken the blood and also raise BP, be very careful with it. I haven't messed with it because of the BP issues the last time around.

Yeah I had the C pretty bad so staying away from EPO for a while just in case. I really wish a sponsor here would find a way to carry ITPP it makes the RBC carry 30% more oxygen.

 

[alfresco]

I find you don't notice much of the benefits of higher RBC in steady state cardio. Its not till you're doing higher threshold cardio. HIIT or hard,long, steep hill climbs on the bike.

Thanks for the chiming in.

You would not believe the long steep hills I used to train on here on Sonoma County, CA. where I live. They are so good and challenging that pro cycling teams come here to train. Somewhere on this forum I outlined my training on my road bike. Brutal if I do say so myself. I never felt a difference with a high hematocrit

 

[Cerberus777]

Thanks for the chiming in.

You would not believe the long steep hills I used to train on here on Sonoma County, CA. where I live. They are so good and challenging that pro cycling teams come here to train. Somewhere on this forum I outlined my training on my road bike. Brutal if I do say so myself. I never felt a difference with a high hematocrit

Oh wow you ride there! Ok most roads don't get as steep so I assumed. Odd you never felt the difference.

 

[marssel]

I find you don't notice much of the benefits of higher RBC in steady state cardio. Its not till you're doing higher threshold cardio. HIIT or hard,long, steep hill climbs on the bike.

When my RBC is higher I perform on the stepmill better but it takes me MUCH LONGER to cool down even though my breathing and performance are and feel better.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Lactate. Never thought of that.

And I couldn’t run 20 miles if you put a gun to my head, we’ll . . . maybe.

Design me a workout if you like. Keep in mind my hematocrit is in normal range now so I am not sure what it would prove as we have no way to compare. Just don’t have me run (yuck) or bike (gone). I can walk though and tear up the gym. Maybe a stationary bike but still it’s a mute point now unless I let my hematocrit get back up there.

Nobody without serious training can just step out there and run 20 miles. Maybe a very fit 14yr-old kid could but even then, it would be hell for them. 10 miles is rough on me and I'm in good physical condition. But I usually keep my runs to 5 miles which is under 35-40 minutes. Trust me, 5 consecutive 7-minute miles is harder than it sounds. Last week I went from Harrisburg to Lancaster and back and came in at just over 63miles (~ 102km) on a road bike (Raleigh steel frame double crank). It took all afternoon and evening about 5 hours but felt great and the weather was cool and perfect.

Maybe it's not your crit at all but rather your hemoglobin/iron? Also, other Fe elements in your blood could also be at play. I wouldn't consider EPO to extend endurance until I had a full hematologic blood work up and even then, I'm already jacked on Hgb/Hct. You and I are no spring chickens. Stay safe, brother.

 

[Performance Based]

Nobody without serious training can just step out there and run 20 miles. Maybe a very fit 14yr-old kid could but even then, it would be hell for them. 10 miles is rough on me and I'm in good physical condition. But I usually keep my runs to 5 miles which is under 35-40 minutes. Trust me, 5 consecutive 7-minute miles is harder than it sounds. Last week I went from Harrisburg to Lancaster and back and came in at just over 63miles (~ 102km) on a road bike (Raleigh steel frame double crank). It took all afternoon and evening about 5 hours but felt great and the weather was cool and perfect.

Maybe it's not your crit at all but rather your hemoglobin/iron? Also, other Fe elements in your blood could also be at play. I wouldn't consider EPO to extend endurance until I had a full hematologic blood work up and even then, I'm already jacked on Hgb/Hct. You and I are no spring chickens. Stay safe, brother.

5 miles at a 7 pace is 100% NO joke. My long slow distance runs I’m usually cruising at a 9-9:15 pace. Just looking at the squirrels and petting dogs quickly. No real CNS activation from my experience at this pacing. Purely relying on the elasticity of the fascial system and tendons/ligaments over hip driving.

I’m noticing a lot of you cycle - I bought a peloton a few years back but couldn’t get into it. Where did most of you start out with your cycling journey?

 

[Performance Based]

Trying to incorporate these into my LSD runs… not going well though

 

[Cerberus777]

If you're heavier a rise in RBC might not be noticeable do to needing to move the extra weight is more taxing.

 

[alfresco]

Nobody without serious training can just step out there and run 20 miles. Maybe a very fit 14yr-old kid could but even then, it would be hell for them. 10 miles is rough on me and I'm in good physical condition. But I usually keep my runs to 5 miles which is under 35-40 minutes. Trust me, 5 consecutive 7-minute miles is harder than it sounds. Last week I went from Harrisburg to Lancaster and back and came in at just over 63miles (~ 102km) on a road bike (Raleigh steel frame double crank). It took all afternoon and evening about 5 hours but felt great and the weather was cool and perfect.

Maybe it's not your crit at all but rather your hemoglobin/iron? Also, other Fe elements in your blood could also be at play. I wouldn't consider EPO to extend endurance until I had a full hematologic blood work up and even then, I'm already jacked on Hgb/Hct. You and I are no spring chickens. Stay safe, brother.

You are in very good good shape, , way better than I.

Ferritin has been low normal. I donate blood as often as I can. May the cause? Have tried supplements to change that. No dice.

Am not complaining and not planning on going any further (testing) with it. I am good to go as long as can keep up with wife, a huge endurance athlete, otherwise she will divorce me

 

[alfresco]

Oh wow you ride there! Ok most roads don't get as steep so I assumed. Odd you never felt the difference.

Yes, it is odd felt nothing on slushy blood. Maybe I just never road or trained hard enough or long enough to feel the effects.

Yes, am fortunate to live in such a place. Especially on the 18th fairway of a private Golf and Country Club. And never having to mow your backyard No, I do golf, zero desire to.

I have ridden over the highest Colorado, Mount Evans Road in CO, > 14,000 ft.
The hills in Sonoma County, while not as high CO are in many ways just as challenging as you can put together some amazing, difficult rides in world class scenery. And how can you not forget the equally world class wines.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Normally, I just hit the track and will do a 100m sprint, walk off the remainder of the lap, hit another 100m, repeat. Usually 4 or 5 100m and if I feel spritely will try a 200m and walk off a lap or two.

Intervals really make me feel better than just a long, protracted run at a fair pace for the current weather. Cool and crisp is best all the way to humid with heat which is the worst. There's a park near here with a gravel road for horses but it's a great run. But it's hilly. The hills act like intervals. I measured out a mile with the jeep and will just go all out for the one mile and walk back. It's only a mile but still brutal. My age-adjusted 80% MHR is 136bpm. That is a joke. I've seen my watch at 180bpm+ often and that's over 100% of my age-adjusted MHR.

The rest of my cardio is aerobic and slow-paced. Very healthy and aerobic with elevated HR and breathing but no gasping or chest pounding or muscles burning. Nothing catabolic at all. Just a hike, take the kids to the park, etc. HIIT once a week. I don't do stationary bikes and I don't like treadmills unless weather demands it. But the belt on those treadmills really pounds your knees so I do the bikes unless they're really good ones.

 

[alfresco]

Normally, I just hit the track and will do a 100m sprint, walk off the remainder of the lap, hit another 100m, repeat. Usually 4 or 5 100m and if I feel spritely will try a 200m and walk off a lap or two.

Intervals really make me feel better than just a long, protracted run at a fair pace for the current weather. Cool and crisp is best all the way to humid with heat which is the worst. There's a park near here with a gravel road for horses but it's a great run. But it's hilly. The hills act like intervals. I measured out a mile with the jeep and will just go all out for the one mile and walk back. It's only a mile but still brutal. My age-adjusted 80% MHR is 136bpm. That is a joke. I've seen my watch at 180bpm+ often and that's over 100% of my age-adjusted MHR.

The rest of my cardio is anaerobic and slow-paced. Very healthy and aerobic with elevated HR and breathing but no gasping or chest pounding or muscles burning. Nothing catabolic at all. Just a hike, take the kids to the park, etc. HIIT once a week. I don't do stationary bikes and I don't like treadmills unless weather demands it. But the belt on those treadmills really pounds your knees so do the bikes unless they're really good ones.

Never believed in the MHR. Kinda like BMI, no? But . . . it is still a superior to about any other measure if used as a training tool to predict recovery.

Funny story, years and years ago a young girl I met was a really talented, freakishly so in every sport she tried. She was tall sturdily built, a body that would pull the moon out of orbit. Seriously.

She was 17, going on 18 (I was there but I was 28.) and we used to meet at pool at 4:00am in complex where we lived, and do laps. Her dad was CHP officer and scared the shit out me, both of actually.

Anyway, back to MHR. She used to go to my gym and watch me work out. Bored she must have been. My training partner and I used to run this gawd awful hill behind the gym after working. She asked if she could come along. How could one resist?

My partner and I would do intervals to the top or just go straight up. This time we chose intervals. She just about fainted. Granted, it was a hot day and on tarmac. I took her pulse and if I remember correctly it was like 220 or something like that. So much for MHR. I did not take mine

 

[UCP]

Trying to incorporate these into my LSD runs… not going well though

I switched to all minimalist footwear in Feb and it isn't easy. Just like any other muscles you have to build capacity and think of every step as a rep so the volume has to start low. You could start wearing them outside workouts or switch to a running shoe that are in between minimalist and cushioned (I think Altra makes some).

I did a full month of daily foot workouts and made my way into some barefoot sprinting to help build capacity. I've had my feet hurt from walking/standing all day but the soreness from barefoot sprinting is another level. It takes a while for the feet to adapt but there is a ton of athletic potential in just unfucking your feet.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Never believed in the MHR. Kinda like BMI, no? But . . . it is still a superior to about any other measure if used as a training tool to predict recovery.

Funny story, years and years ago a young girl I met was a really talented, freakishly so in every sport she tried. She was tall sturdily built, a body that would pull the moon out of orbit. Seriously.

She was 17, going on 18 (I was there but I was 28.) and we used to meet at pool at 4:00am in complex where we lived, and do laps. Her dad was CHP officer and scared the shit out me, both of actually.

Anyway, back to MHR. She used to go to my gym and watch me work out. Bored she must have been. My training partner and I used to run this gawd awful hill behind the gym after working. She asked if she could come along. How could one resist?

My partner and I would do intervals to the top or just go straight up. This time we chose intervals. She just about fainted. Granted, it was a hot day and on tarmac. I took her pulse and if I remember correctly it was like 220 or something like that. So much for MHR. I did not take mine

I've seen 200+ bpm many times. Basically, although RHR, MHR, VO2(max), BMI, BF% are some of the best tools we have for fitness measurements, they don't tell the full story. And unless you have access to athletic facilities that can measure O2 and CO2 out, the measurements are not 100% accurate anyway.

If you're doing an exercise, and it's really difficult, if you get through it without your heart exploding? You didn't reach your MHR.

She sounds like my ex-wife. My ex-wife was a young woman just like you're talking about. No slim model type. 140lbs, 5'8, smallish boobs but damn. Not fat at all. She was an athletic freak. Not too bright though. She used to win in track not because she was built better for running then the other young women runners, but only bc she would hurl herself around that track full on like a racehorse on crack. I believe her lungs would have started to bleed before she would have let up. It was comical!

Alas, that was over 30 years ago. I saw her a few years ago in Anchorage at her mother's funeral and she was 300lbs I'm betting. But in her prime, she was a force of nature. She could lift heavier weight than some of my friends. My son is a carbon copy of me so he didn't quite get her athleticism. But he has the genes so...

 

[The Runner]

@PMCCHRIS as promised, hemocrit was 47.5 after 2 weeks on with 15k iu injected over that time period. Based on my past Bloodwork, my baseline was between 44 and 45 at start of epo. I was slightly dehydrated as well so may be lower than 47.5. My test and primo cycle alone never managed to increase crit in 3 months, in fact I dropped 0.5 crit running 300 test 500 primo.

Regardless, I'm reading multiple posts of epo not benefitting steady state much. Which is all I do,may be why I'm not seeing much. Have 15k iu left, due to a low increase so far in crit on my bloodwork I'm going to use all 15k and retest when done. I personally don't see a danger of it getting too high in 3 weeks. In fact, I'm lowering my test and primo. Dealing with dead legs too, need a break Unfortunately. Ugh.

 

[Performance Based]

@PMCCHRIS as promised, hemocrit was 47.5 after 2 weeks on with 15k iu injected over that time period. Based on my past Bloodwork, my baseline was between 44 and 45 at start of epo. I was slightly dehydrated as well so may be lower than 47.5. My test and primo cycle alone never managed to increase crit in 3 months, in fact I dropped 0.5 crit running 300 test 500 primo.

Regardless, I'm reading multiple posts of epo not benefitting steady state much. Which is all I do,may be why I'm not seeing much. Have 15k iu left, due to a low increase so far in crit on my bloodwork I'm going to use all 15k and retest when done. I personally don't see a danger of it getting too high in 3 weeks. In fact, I'm lowering my test and primo. Dealing with dead legs too, need a break Unfortunately. Ugh.

Very interesting - any mental clarity of days of administration?

 

[The Runner]

Very interesting - any mental clarity of days of administration?

Sorry man, just got back on for first time since Sunday. No, I do 2,500iu per shot and notice nothing like that. I recently started week 3 and 20k in, starting to see some results. Tied my weekly most miles, faster pace than usual, and leg fatigue not as bad. Been running in 110 degree heat index and breathing just fine.

I think my epo is starting to kick in. Going to extend a few more weeks.

 

[cmryan]

This thread has had more discussion about EPO than any other I've seen on PM. So I figure this might be a good place to ask this question. After reading more about EPO, I've learned that there seems to be primarily 4 different variations available form sources. EPO alfa (procrit), beta (neorecormon), zeta (retacrit) and darbepoetin alfa (aranesp). Can anyone tell me the different effects these have or ones I should anticipate? Or where I can go to learn the differences?