Confused on studies with GH/TRT, take away?

[NEMSZ]

Ok, so I asked a few weeks back if anyone knew not an exact risk/health effect with GH added to TRT on the heart and in general health but a close ballpark? Didn’t really get anything definitive.. We’ve seen the case studies of AAS abuse and some of those with GH added and those dosages were pretty crazy and people had significant health issues and some at young ages..

I’m aware of the risks of high dosages with either one/both and don’t plan on doing anything like that myself but we don’t hear much about actual therapeutic dosages.. I’m talking 150-200mg Test MAX (whatever brings you into high range of normal) and about 3iu GH MAX...

The studies below aren’t exactly that but they talk about how TRT and GH therapy can be beneficial for Heart Failure and some say that the studies done have actually improved heart function, elasticity etc.. The Harvard article talks about an overview of several studies and how it positively affected patients and no negative health effects on lipids or blood sugar but there was/might be an increased risk of cancers with GH, Prostate was mentioned...

All in all, I’m confused now and don’t really know what to take away from this... We’ve seen how large doses of AAS with moderate/high doses of GH negatively affects health and heart function etc but some of these are actually showing improvements with therapeutic doses if I’m reading it correctly... So is there someone educated in the medical field that can interpret or maybe give a better estimate of what I’m asking? Is there a happy middle ground where someone can use actual therapeutic doses of Test/GH and not really have to worry about the heart enlargement and function and other possible health issues that can occur and possibly experience some benefits and preventative effects with the therapeutic doses?

Growth hormone and testosterone in heart failure therapy - PubMed

Testosterone deficiency and growth hormone resistance are positively associated with a poor state of heart failure. Treatment of deficiency improves outcomes in heart failure; however, there is a significant paucity of data with regard to testosterone and heart failure as well as a significant...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Myths and truths of growth hormone and testosterone therapy in heart failure - PubMed

Heart failure is a chronic clinical syndrome with very poor prognosis. Despite being on optimal medical therapy, many patients still experience debilitating symptoms and poor quality of life. In recent years, there has been a great interest in anabolic hormone replacement therapy - namely...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Growth hormone, athletic performance, and aging - Harvard Health

Some men use growth hormone as an anti-aging treatment, even though it is illegal to market it for this purpose. Studies of test subjects who took growth hormone found a high incidence of side effe...

www.health.harvard.edu

**broken link removed**

 

[T-800]

Theres no cookie cutter system for using substances. Everybody reacts different to anything and everything. The way i did it? Started microdosing testosterone and hgh last year. I did bloodwork every 12 weeks. After the results i gradually upped the dose to reach the numbers i was after. Now after 1,5 yrs on trt and hgh and about 5 or 6 bloodtests, i found the sweet spot of both test and hgh doses. Took a while and some effort, but i feel like a million bucks. Life treats me good. Happy at work and happy at home. Only thing left to do next yr is an ecg of my heart. Just to rule things out.

 

[buck]

A population in general will respond to a drug in a similar way. But I have seen no real long term large studies done with TRT and HGH. Much less multiple well designed studies. The best I can usually do is look at where the majority of the evidence points and hope for the best.

 

[thewizkid]

the problem with injectable gh is it is long acting, the human body is used to spikes of gh. also the body regulates gh endogenously so that it isn't active when other hormones are active
when you inject gh, the body can't regulate it, it's just there, so this is probably where the negative side effects come in

the question is, why do you want to use hgh for hormone therapy?
i don't think it's approved for anti ageing, probably for a good reason
also how old are you? if you aren't too old, chances are you'd naturally produce more gh naturally than a low dose injection of gh if you're using testosterone replacement
part of testosterones actions are increasing gh levels

 

[NEMSZ]

the problem with injectable gh is it is long acting, the human body is used to spikes of gh. also the body regulates gh endogenously so that it isn't active when other hormones are active
when you inject gh, the body can't regulate it, it's just there, so this is probably where the negative side effects come in

the question is, why do you want to use hgh for hormone therapy?
i don't think it's approved for anti ageing, probably for a good reason
also how old are you? if you aren't too old, chances are you'd naturally produce more gh naturally than a low dose injection of gh if you're using testosterone replacement
part of testosterones actions are increasing gh levels

I understand the thought behind your theory and it makes sense...

And I’m not trying to use GH for “hormone therapy” per se but I just want to use it a few months out of the year because it makes me look/feel damn amazing lol my question/confusion after doing as much research as I can trying to weigh the risk/reward ratio is that if a “therapeutic dose” were to be used if that would negate and possibly have benefits to any risks..

I used GH before for about 1 1/2 years with a few months breaks here and there but at slightly higher doses than what I’m asking (3iu now vs 4-6iu then) and I was shredded, muscles full and pumped all the time with very little effort..

I’m not old by any means (29) but did start AAS young and dabbled with higher doses and harsh compounds years and years ago in my early 20’s followed by just Test at around 300mg/week for a few years straight and recently came off everything in December of last year to see if I can recuperate any natural Test but after about 8 months, no luck at all so I’m on scripted TRT and I’ve become super health conscious over the last 2-3 years and was under the impression when I was using GH last year for a few months that it was a fairly healthy route vs other things and I believe it is healthier and easier on the body than say Tren or Sdrol etc but I’m super cautious now anyway.. I dont plan on going above my TRT if at all and have pretty good discipline with that (as in no addictive tendencies to a look or feel like guys who get scared and then later on slowly build up to taking multiple AAS and higher doses etc because they can’t NOT have a certain look) but I do want a little something extra from time to time in as healthy a way possible as my physical goals aren’t anything crazy and I feel GH gives me that look.. I’m basically trying to be as cautious as possible with weighing out taking GH for say Spring/Summer OR possibly upping my TRT from 120mg week to say 300mg week MAX for about 8-10 weeks in spring/summer... All in all, health comes first though so I’m not mad if I don’t do anything other than TRT anyway..

Can’t go longer than that because I get tested every 3 months for my TRT doc and he wants my levels at 600-700..

 

[buck]

the problem with injectable gh is it is long acting, the human body is used to spikes of gh. also the body regulates gh endogenously so that it isn't active when other hormones are active
when you inject gh, the body can't regulate it, it's just there, so this is probably where the negative side effects come in

the question is, why do you want to use hgh for hormone therapy?
i don't think it's approved for anti ageing, probably for a good reason
also how old are you? if you aren't too old, chances are you'd naturally produce more gh naturally than a low dose injection of gh if you're using testosterone replacement
part of testosterones actions are increasing gh levels

For what it is worth the last I read there is no approved anti-aging. The Dr.s that used to put anti-aging there web sites etc. would get a visit from the FDA as there is no such thing as stopping or reversing aging. And producing HGH is not the problem from my reading as people seem to produce enough. It is just that they don't release it into the system as they get older. HGH like many things is written for off label use. I don't figure the FDA has my best interests or even health for that matter all figured out. Since they are a group of bureaucrats for the most part that get their advice from pharmaceutical companies that are seeking a profit.

 

[Deleted member 121863]

So you wanna know how fast you can race your Honda civic around through the twisty`s before it fly`s off the road and crashes? Here is the problem, we don`t know if your genetics are equivalent to a civic or a corvette. You don`t have to go spot on the speed limit but don`t go crazy. There is no precise number or speed where you will lose it in the turn. There are many factors (back to the car) is it wet out, how is your suspension, air pressure, windy, sand on the road, etc.

I suggest you research disease related to LOW levels of test, Gh serum, and igf1. That will tell you where you want to be higher than. There is a well know hormone doctor from Germany that actually prescribes igf-1 for elderly patients with dementia and it calms them, reduces violent spells. Lots of stuff he does for elderly to bring that more back to normal. I got his book and he autographed for my wife... $500!!

 

[thewizkid]

For what it is worth the last I read there is no approved anti-aging. The Dr.s that used to put anti-aging there web sites etc. would get a visit from the FDA as there is no such thing as stopping or reversing aging. And producing HGH is not the problem from my reading as people seem to produce enough. It is just that they don't release it into the system as they get older. HGH like many things is written for off label use. I don't figure the FDA has my best interests or even health for that matter all figured out. Since they are a group of bureaucrats for the most part that get their advice from pharmaceutical companies that are seeking a profit.

i didn't mean anti aging as in living longer but looking younger

I understand the thought behind your theory and it makes sense...

And I’m not trying to use GH for “hormone therapy” per se but I just want to use it a few months out of the year because it makes me look/feel damn amazing lol my question/confusion after doing as much research as I can trying to weigh the risk/reward ratio is that if a “therapeutic dose” were to be used if that would negate and possibly have benefits to any risks..

I used GH before for about 1 1/2 years with a few months breaks here and there but at slightly higher doses than what I’m asking (3iu now vs 4-6iu then) and I was shredded, muscles full and pumped all the time with very little effort..

I’m not old by any means (29) but did start AAS young and dabbled with higher doses and harsh compounds years and years ago in my early 20’s followed by just Test at around 300mg/week for a few years straight and recently came off everything in December of last year to see if I can recuperate any natural Test but after about 8 months, no luck at all so I’m on scripted TRT and I’ve become super health conscious over the last 2-3 years and was under the impression when I was using GH last year for a few months that it was a fairly healthy route vs other things and I believe it is healthier and easier on the body than say Tren or Sdrol etc but I’m super cautious now anyway.. I dont plan on going above my TRT if at all and have pretty good discipline with that (as in no addictive tendencies to a look or feel like guys who get scared and then later on slowly build up to taking multiple AAS and higher doses etc because they can’t NOT have a certain look) but I do want a little something extra from time to time in as healthy a way possible as my physical goals aren’t anything crazy and I feel GH gives me that look.. I’m basically trying to be as cautious as possible with weighing out taking GH for say Spring/Summer OR possibly upping my TRT from 120mg week to say 300mg week MAX for about 8-10 weeks in spring/summer... All in all, health comes first though so I’m not mad if I don’t do anything other than TRT anyway..

Can’t go longer than that because I get tested every 3 months for my TRT doc and he wants my levels at 600-700..

if anything i'd recommend using GHRP,
or if you use gh, use it before bed, IM, that way it's out of your system before you eat food in the morning
i think the main issue is it being active in the system so long and it's ability to cause insulin resistence

insulin and gh are counter regulatory hormones, so while gh is active, insulin won't work properly, 3iu's is more on the high end, 2iu's is probably safer. However you probably produce more than 2iu's of gh naturally, or you'd get more from ghrp

 

[NEMSZ]

i didn't mean anti aging as in living longer but looking younger



if anything i'd recommend using GHRP,
or if you use gh, use it before bed, IM, that way it's out of your system before you eat food in the morning
i think the main issue is it being active in the system so long and it's ability to cause insulin resistence

insulin and gh are counter regulatory hormones, so while gh is active, insulin won't work properly, 3iu's is more on the high end, 2iu's is probably safer. However you probably produce more than 2iu's of gh naturally, or you'd get more from ghrp

Are you thinking that health issues with GH are because of food/insulin in the system? Is there any scientific info to back this up? Curious about this...

I will say though that when I was using GH I was doing a lot of intermittent fasting and when I got blood work my blood sugars were around 70-72, so pretty damn low.. I don’t have an idea of what my blood insulin levels were though so if those were elevated then it’s not a great thing either way... I do plan on getting BNP and Insulin Blood levels tested before hand anyway...

As far as the GHRP’s I’ve never heard from anyone with experience or seen results that impressed me.. I did try MK once but the bloat was ridiculous as well as the lethargy.. I don’t want to experiment with other things anyway when I know that GH gives the look and feel I want within weeks (bullshit that people think it takes months).. I’m telling you, I was easily 7% bodyfat @ 185 without even trying but again, it’s at what cost that im trying to analyze.. Is it worth it to take maybe 6 months out of the year MAX? Is that dose of 2-3iu enough to cause any heart effects and negative health effects in the long run? I’m trying to narrow that down with peoples experience and whatever studies and info I can find...

Also, about naturally producing 2+ iu, is there any science to back that up? I’ve heard all kinds of ranges but never seen any actual info.. I’ve never had my natural IGF tested but I’ve seen several people on 3-4iu of good GH have levels in the upper 300’s and some even around 500... I doubt I’m anywhere near that naturally, especially given the results I got at 4iu...

Either way, as of now with the unknowns of how GH can effect the heart and other health issues and possibly cancer (I know there would be far more cases of cancer in the bodybuilding/fitness community if this was so prevalent) but also I think about the future and sure, 35 year old bodybuilders aren’t getting cancer left and right but what about at 50-60? I’m not trying to get it EVER lol...

Right now I’m leaning towards the raising Test to around 300mg week and just tightening up the diet to get the look I want again vs the GH.. The addition of GH just honestly seems a bit more lenient with the ability to do so..

 

[thewizkid]

Are you thinking that health issues with GH are because of food/insulin in the system? Is there any scientific info to back this up? Curious about this...

I will say though that when I was using GH I was doing a lot of intermittent fasting and when I got blood work my blood sugars were around 70-72, so pretty damn low.. I don’t have an idea of what my blood insulin levels were though so if those were elevated then it’s not a great thing either way... I do plan on getting BNP and Insulin Blood levels tested before hand anyway...

As far as the GHRP’s I’ve never heard from anyone with experience or seen results that impressed me.. I did try MK once but the bloat was ridiculous as well as the lethargy.. I don’t want to experiment with other things anyway when I know that GH gives the look and feel I want within weeks (bullshit that people think it takes months).. I’m telling you, I was easily 7% bodyfat @ 185 without even trying but again, it’s at what cost that im trying to analyze.. Is it worth it to take maybe 6 months out of the year MAX? Is that dose of 2-3iu enough to cause any heart effects and negative health effects in the long run? I’m trying to narrow that down with peoples experience and whatever studies and info I can find...

Also, about naturally producing 2+ iu, is there any science to back that up? I’ve heard all kinds of ranges but never seen any actual info.. I’ve never had my natural IGF tested but I’ve seen several people on 3-4iu of good GH have levels in the upper 300’s and some even around 500... I doubt I’m anywhere near that naturally, especially given the results I got at 4iu...

Either way, as of now with the unknowns of how GH can effect the heart and other health issues and possibly cancer (I know there would be far more cases of cancer in the bodybuilding/fitness community if this was so prevalent) but also I think about the future and sure, 35 year old bodybuilders aren’t getting cancer left and right but what about at 50-60? I’m not trying to get it EVER lol...

Right now I’m leaning towards the raising Test to around 300mg week and just tightening up the diet to get the look I want again vs the GH.. The addition of GH just honestly seems a bit more lenient with the ability to do so..

to be honest i haven't done much research on GH and it's side effects but i think it's well documented that gh administration causes glucose intolerance

i think GHRP peptides are prescribed so they have to do something, it could be that the bodybuilders who said the GHRP didn't work, were in fact producing more natural GH than the peptides caused

i don't think gh causes cancer either, rather it accelerates tumour growth, but i could be wrong.

I think bodybuilders getting cancer has more to do with the epigenetics of the human body. It seems from the theories, if they are true, a bodybuilders lifestyle and drugs would be the complete opposite of a cancer prevention lifestyle