Cycle Design to optimize IGF-1

[bbxtreme]

I never said tren was healthy nor that it should be run year round. You’re putting words in my mouth that I never said. We all know tren isn’t healthy

I was simply talking about trens impact on IGF

I didn’t put words in your mouth, I asked you a question since you didn’t seem to understand why myself and others suggested to not use tren for his next phase. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt. Lol

We can all hope that nobody walks away from threads like this not making a risky decision over one factor. In this case much of it is a moot point as he will be running IGF LR3.

 

[Thick500]

I think it’s always as simply as pin, eat, and lift. I think you want to make it complicated because you’re older and think it has to be more complicated.

We are all different as you said to luki, but this is a textbook example of over complicating things.

I get it man. It's just the way I think about things, always have. I understand where you are coming from but you can't tell me that if you knew for certain that 1 specific approach to diet, gear, or training would 100% yield you better results you wouldn't absolutely make the change? Problem is we don't know, which is where questions and testing theories comes into play. Or we just stick to the basics and wait for others to make the revelations for us as the sport advances (I'm not saying I'm making any revelations here lol).

Shit bro, if you were sent back to the golden era of bodybuilding with the knowledge of today's athletes. They would absolutely tell you that you are "overcomplicating it".

I really should be asking chatGPT like sector did. There was some good shit in that response lol.

 

[Neuro1234]

I get it man. It's just the way I think about things, always have. I understand where you are coming from but you can't tell me that if you knew for certain that 1 specific approach to diet, gear, or training would 100% yield you better results you wouldn't absolutely make the change? Problem is we don't know, which is where questions and testing theories comes into play. Or we just stick to the basics and wait for others to make the revelations for us as the sport advances (I'm not saying I'm making any revelations here lol).

Shit bro, if you were sent back to the golden era of bodybuilding with the knowledge of today's athletes. They would absolutely tell you that you are "overcomplicating it".

I really should be asking chatGPT like sector did. There was some good shit in that response lol.

I hear what you’re saying. I didn’t see a physique pic in your post history, and I don’t know if you’re some upper level competitor. To me it comes down to cost to benefit ratio. Unless you’re a top level guy trying to turn pro, or pro trying to break through the next level… the cost (literal and metaphorical) of the lr3 and serostim, fixation on igf-1 level la etc… is it going to pay dividend on “next level” or “revolutionizing level” of gains? I personally don’t think so.

BUT. also not my money or energy. So if it’s important to you to dive this deep, than I have no dog in the fight. I’m just a KISS type of guy when it comes to diet and training and it’s worked well for my in the last 6 months especially.

All that to say, if this is your thing, then do your thing

 

[mexbeast]

Ok... this is great, I didn't think I was crazy with my thinking. My hope is low dose tren will benefit this cycle with use of Lr3 and GH but keeping the dose low will avoid the sides that can be detrimental to growth while also not impacting blood markers significantly. (50-75mg per week). I've done this previously in a cut because i hate trensomnia and I definitely benefited from the addition.

What is your thoughts on IGF binding proteins which increase as IGF-1 levels increase? IGF binding proteins generally decrease the effectiveness of IGF-1 by binding to IGF-1 and reducing the amount of free IGF-1 available to interact with its receptors. (Similar to relationship between Test and SHBG).

How can I manipulate these to my advantage prior to starting the IGF and/or Serostim? How can I manipulate these levels during my cycle for continuous effectiveness? Lr3 + 6iu Sero seems like a recipe to jack IGF levels up high (and binding proteins as well). Might a modest 50mcg LR3 only for 4-6 weeks be enough? Followed by 6iu serostim for 8 weeks? I think there may be some serious diminishing returns when combining them.

Hell.... I've gone from 4iu to 10iu + hgh over course of a year or so daily administration. The first several months gave me better results than the end. Might this be the reason behind eod gh producing better results than daily administration (same weekly iu count)? Binding protein levels not catching up with the swing in daily igf levels?? My body is great at negative feedback loops and working against me, as are most of us. I feel all these ideas are worthy of entertaining when designing a cycle.

So why do you worry about igfbp's? You are planning on using lrigf3 which doesn't really bind to bp's! If maximum gains is all you care about, why not replace the primo with Deca and 200-400 tren?

 

[KingOfSushi]

So you think it’s healthy or sustainable to run tren year round and in a surplus progressive phase? Even in terms of adding true lean tissue one can get better results from other compounds. @homonunculus did a great video on this in past threads here.

I think what you’re meaning to say (could be wrong) is you don’t understand it in terms of IGF relevance. In that case there are endless threads on here where this has been discussed.

Overall in this case I believe we can see analysis paralysis is a very real thing.

At the referenced 50-70mg? Honestly it probably is sustainable… but also useless lol

 

[Thick500]

I hear what you’re saying. I didn’t see a physique pic in your post history, and I don’t know if you’re some upper level competitor. To me it comes down to cost to benefit ratio. Unless you’re a top level guy trying to turn pro, or pro trying to break through the next level… the cost (literal and metaphorical) of the lr3 and serostim, fixation on igf-1 level la etc… is it going to pay dividend on “next level” or “revolutionizing level” of gains? I personally don’t think so.

BUT. also not my money or energy. So if it’s important to you to dive this deep, than I have no dog in the fight. I’m just a KISS type of guy when it comes to diet and training and it’s worked well for my in the last 6 months especially.

All that to say, if this is your thing, then do your thing

Yeah man I'm no top level guy. I just gained a little financial freedom to delve into more expensive gear and gh and want to make sure I'm using them right. I never gave much thought to making sure I was getting the most out of my generic gh. Dropping 2k for 3 kits of Serostim definitely has me wanting to do this right bc I may not use it a 2nd time and it might just give me the same results as my generics anyway

 

[KingOfSushi]

Thanks. This is what I was worried about but Big Paul's experience (and results) with starting his rebound/push straight out of a show at age of 50 or 51 really had me wondering. I've always given my body a break between phases when alot of gear is used.

How long and what does your health and deload phase look like? Should this be more about health markers or androgen receptors getting a break? My health markers could be in range rather quickly.

Well Paul was also way overdieted, ran 100mcg t3 into that prep, and had size before.

Some of the best coaches out there are considering these things and drawing weekly bloods to monitor things we don't consider at all. Im a biomedical engineer by trade and I've definitely been known to overcomplicate things in the eyes of some people.

However, every single one of us are making mistakes in our diet, training, and cycle design that we will never know about and live in ignorant bliss. But... there is an exact combination of every single input that will maximize the output.

We know that a properly timed refeed can get the fat loss moving again, a training deload can improve gains, a cruise can make the blast more effective, and so on. This is related to so many enzymes, proteins, hormones, and receptors that unregulate/downregulate based on negative feedback loops to maintain homeostasis.

I just spent an ASSLOAD of $ on Primo, serostim, and IGF. I want to be certain I'm getting the most out of them is all lol! If there is a forum you know of with a more scientific approach to bodybuilding let me know, i know this is not a common topic and may not be the best place to get the feedback I'm looking for. I'm the type to read all of vigorous Steve's cited articles BTW. It is what it is, we are all different man

Well you heard it here @luki7788 , this is what’s holding you back from being a top coach. OP you should go see what the athletes of Luki look like and less time reading articles from salesmen like Steve respectfully.

Curious, @3BILLS does this count as bio hacking?

 

[Thick500]

So why do you worry about igfbp's? You are planning on using lrigf3 which doesn't really bind to bp's! If maximum gains is all you care about, why not replace the primo with Deca and 200-400 tren?

Yeah I had no idea Lr3 had a low affinity for igfbp. However, a good question here would be does it's presence signal the body to increase igfbp's which ultimately soak up all your igf-1 produces from your hgh because the lr3 has a low affinity for it? If that is true then running Lr3 separate from hgh would be ideal. Or maybe DES instead who knows. This is a question that may not have an answer but is a reasonable expectation.

Maximum gains is not the only concern or yes I would blast deca and tren, throw some superdrol in there too. I'm not trying to fuck myself up which is why I'm pretty sure I'll be taking @bbxtreme advice and giving myself a 6 week break before I start this up.

 

[alfresco]

Hey all. Long time lurker, rare poster/commenter here looking for some experienced advice.

I've been dieting semi-hard for roughly 8 weeks. 5'10" 220lbs and 8-9%. Going to diet down for another 6-8 weeks to maybe 6% and then rebound blast for 12-16weeks maybe longer. Unless I'm not patient enough and I start this up in 2 weeks who knows.

I've been running generic gh for 2-3 years and currently at 6-8iu per day at night.

I want to optimize my cycle, diet, training etc for the best response to IGF during my growth phase. I've got 2 x 10vial kits of LR3 0.1mg per vial from pharmaqo and 3 kits of Serostim. My concern is IGF binding proteins being high from chronically elevated IGF for the past few years. So... was planning to give the GH a break at some point before I rebound blast to let those protein levels drop considerably but not sure how long that will take (2 weeks, 4 weeks, longer?). I assume there is no other way to achieve this.

Also, would I be shooting myself in the foot running the LR3 with the Serostim? I want to get the most out of both of these products obviously so considering 40 days of LR3 followed (50mcg per day) by 63 days of 6iu Serostim instead of together?

Low dose tren will be present throughout to sensitize IGF-1 receptors. Also Test, Primo, and anadrol for 4 weeks at some point maybe when initial rebound gains slow. I may use EQ if I can get estrogen where I want it (I usually use either primo or eq).

Something around 1g test, 600 primo, 75mg Tren E, and 50mg anadrol.

I also have humalog and Lantus to throw i there, Lantus being known to elevate IGF-1 by binding to the receptors and potentially upregulating IGF receptors. So Lantus everyday?? I have retatrutide to throw in low dose to keep insulin resistance at bay.

Anything else to unregulate IGF-1 receptors and lower the binding proteins?

Should I drop gear to cruise levels before I blast? Had planned to cruise after the rebound. Paul of Anabolic Bodybuilding had great success post show going straight into rebound blast with Lantus, gh, test, primo, and NPP. Thought I would do something similar.

Please offer thoughts, suggestions, any misconceptions or mistakes I have in planning this. I'm 41 with limited growth years ahead of me so have to get a bit nerdy with my setups to see gains, my days of just pin, eat, lift and forget about it to see progress are over for sure.

Just to be clear . . . please do not ask for anybody to set-up a “cycle” for you. Not saying you are. It is against board rules.

 

[bbxtreme]

Yeah I had no idea Lr3 had a low affinity for igfbp. However, a good question here would be does it's presence signal the body to increase igfbp's which ultimately soak up all your igf-1 produces from your hgh because the lr3 has a low affinity for it? If that is true then running Lr3 separate from hgh would be ideal. Or maybe DES instead who knows. This is a question that may not have an answer but is a reasonable expectation.

Maximum gains is not the only concern or yes I would blast deca and tren, throw some superdrol in there too. I'm not trying to fuck myself up which is why I'm pretty sure I'll be taking @bbxtreme advice and giving myself a 6 week break before I start this up.

Kurt Havens and Dr. Dean have discussed this before on a YT video on this topic. I don’t have the time to dig it up, but the cliff notes- they work on different receptors.

As someone who has financial freedom I would never drop money again for pharma HGH again. And you can read my old post where I used to swear by it. I’m the first to admit when I was wrong about something.

You’re worrying about the 1% right now. The 99% is what you should be focusing on. Layne Norton said it best yesterday on his socials and couldn’t agree with it more.

 

[Thick500]

Well Paul was also way overdieted, ran 100mcg t3 into that prep, and had size before.


Well you heard it here @luki7788 , this is what’s holding you back from being a top coach. OP you should go see what the athletes of Luki look like and less time reading articles from salesmen like Steve respectfully.

Curious, @3BILLS does this count as bio hacking?

I did not know that about Paul other than he had alot of size before.

I was definitely not looking to offend luki in that comment bro. Just saying it's hard to imagine that these questions are not worth investigating.

I know that not everyone likes Steve and calls him a salesman. In his defense, I don't know what he's selling and definitely haven't bought anything from him. The science backed approach is refreshing to someone like me, I know it's not for everyone though. I promise to keep these questions in ChatGPT next time. (Or Steve's Q&A but im not paying $ for a question to be answered lol, maybe that's what he's selling )

 

[Neuro1234]

Dropping 2k for 3 kits of Serostim

Yeah I’m out on this convo. there’s been enough convos here about generic vs pharma. I’ll take my year plus worth of generics for 2k over your 90days.

I’ll say this and then I’m done: if all your other boxes aren’t checked, one piece on the board is out of place even a minuscule amount (sleep, diet, recovery, mobility, training et ) then you are worrying about the wrong things. 2k for 90 days to get lost in the weeds is an expensive experiment. BUT. your 2k, time, and energy. Not mine.

 

[Neuro1234]

Kurt Havens and Dr. Dean have discussed this before on a YT video on this topic. I don’t have the time to dig it up, but the cliff notes- they work on different receptors.

As someone who has financial freedom I would never drop money again for pharma HGH again. And you can read my old post where I used to swear by it. I’m the first to admit when I was wrong about something.

You’re worrying about the 1% right now. The 99% is what you should be focusing on. Layne Norton said it best yesterday on his socials and couldn’t agree with it more.

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Oh. Just saw this. As usual he said it better than me.

 

[bbxtreme]

Oh. Just saw this. As usual he said it better than me.

Geez man… I was trying to prevent guys here from laying into him.

 

[Neuro1234]

Geez man… I was trying to prevent guys here from laying into him.

I shoulda clicked refresh before posting.

 

[Thick500]

Kurt Havens and Dr. Dean have discussed this before on a YT video on this topic. I don’t have the time to dig it up, but the cliff notes- they work on different receptors.

As someone who has financial freedom I would never drop money again for pharma HGH again. And you can read my old post where I used to swear by it. I’m the first to admit when I was wrong about something.

You’re worrying about the 1% right now. The 99% is what you should be focusing on. Layne Norton said it best yesterday on his socials and couldn’t agree with it more.

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I really like this thanks. Now that you mention it.. the dean and Kurt video is where I heard this discussed but I can't recall the details. I'll hunt it down now.

As much as I'd love to have an answer to the 1% I'm pretty sure the obsession to find it keeps my cortisol levels sky high chewing on muscle protein.

I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict (10 years sober) and I overdo absolutely everything. Health is my top priority in all of this and your 1st response is what has stuck with me the most so thanks

 

[bbxtreme]

I really like this thanks. Now that you mention it.. the dean and Kurt video is where I heard this discussed but I can't recall the details. I'll hunt it down now.

As much as I'd love to have an answer to the 1% I'm pretty sure the obsession to find it keeps my cortisol levels sky high chewing on muscle protein.

I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict (10 years sober) and I overdo absolutely everything. Health is my top priority in all of this and your 1st response is what has stuck with me the most so thanks

Trust me man, I can be the same way with my background and education. The most progress I made in this sport was when I learned to let go of that and trust the process and be patient.

Much respect for overcoming addiction and a decade at it. This sport can be a much healthier and fulfilling outlet if done right. Just don’t burn yourself out stressing in the process.

 

[Thick500]

Yeah I’m out on this convo. there’s been enough convos here about generic vs pharma. I’ll take my year plus worth of generics for 2k over your 90days.

I’ll say this and then I’m done: if all your other boxes aren’t checked, one piece on the board is out of place even a minuscule amount (sleep, diet, recovery, mobility, training et ) then you are worrying about the wrong things. 2k for 90 days to get lost in the weeds is an expensive experiment. BUT. your 2k, time, and energy. Not mine.

Yeah.... I've never done pharma in the 15+ years of using gh. Some $ fell in my lap and I said f' it, let's see what the hype is all about that Chase and Kurt swear by.

I'm super ocd about this as you can probably tell so my sleep, diet, training, recovery etc are on point. I'm not eating bic macs and papa John's worrying about igf binding proteins lol.

You may be 100% right and I hope you are so I can stick w/ the all the kits of TP's blacks I have stocked up on instead

 

[KillerStack]

Dave Palumbo discusses how his best results with LR3 were ran solo but is unsure if that's because it was his 1st time or not having anything else in the mix to jack IGF levels way up, increasing the negative feedback of more binding proteins. I know he's not the end all be all on the subject, just something I came across when researching the topic.

Dave is also subject placebo. That's the charitable reading; another is that he's BSing. Reason I say this is that at the time he said you can't take more than 10mcg a day or you'll instantly be desensitized. I asked what he based this dosage claim on, crickets... so he got "best results" from just 10mcg of LR3 a day. Ok. If IGF-1 gives you any very tangible physique enhancement at all, that's great. Most can't say what if anything it really did, mostly the noticeable claim is immediate glucose disposal and "pumps."

 

[KingOfSushi]

I don't know what he's selling and definitely haven't bought anything from him.

He’s selling lr3 from peptide companies, but more importantly himself/consults. His method is overcomplicates the topic so much so he’s the only one who you can rely on.