Cycle Design to optimize IGF-1

[Neuro1234]

Yeah.... I've never done pharma in the 15+ years of using gh. Some $ fell in my lap and I said f' it, let's see what the hype is all about that Chase and Kurt swear by.

I'm super ocd about this as you can probably tell so my sleep, diet, training, recovery etc are on point. I'm not eating bic macs and papa John's worrying about igf binding proteins lol.

You may be 100% right and I hope you are so I can stick w/ the all the kits of TP's blacks I have stocked up on instead

Best of luck my bro! Make sure you stay
Dialed in to maximize it all! Interested in hearing your results!

 

[Thick500]

He’s selling lr3 from peptide companies, but more importantly himself/consults. His method is overcomplicates the topic so much so he’s the only one who you can rely on.

That's a fair take but I don't see any misinformation or problem with the conclusions he draws. Reviewing all available literature, giving cliffnotes of it all, and often being the guinea pig for personal anecdotes. It's pretty refreshing for someone with my background. I get that it's beyond what most people care to dig into and I agree keeping it simple is absolutely the best approach for most, including myself at times

 

[KingOfSushi]

I did not know that about Paul other than he had alot of size before.

I was definitely not looking to offend luki in that comment bro. Just saying it's hard to imagine that these questions are not worth investigating.

I know that not everyone likes Steve and calls him a salesman. In his defense, I don't know what he's selling and definitely haven't bought anything from him. The science backed approach is refreshing to someone like me, I know it's not for everyone though. I promise to keep these questions in ChatGPT next time. (Or Steve's Q&A but im not paying $ for a question to be answered lol, maybe that's what he's selling )

My only advice would be view it as entertainment more than education

 

[Sectør]

@Thick500 what are some other considerations you're looking to optimize?

You kind of having me going down the rabbit hole of the different types of IGF binding proteins and their interactions, and im learning a ton

Have some free time today so I plan to do a much deeper dive on IGF proteins as well as the components of the below chart and how it relates to skeletal muscle

It might be splitting hairs, or irrelevant, but I find this kind of research fun and enjoyable. Just looking for some other topics you've considered

 

[3BILLS]

Back in 2012 you were running the same drugs.

No magic stack then and there isn't one now

 

[Thick500]

@Thick500 what are some other considerations you're looking to optimize?

You kind of having me going down the rabbit hole of the different types of IGF binding proteins and their interactions, and im learning a ton

Have some free time today so I plan to do a much deeper dive on IGF proteins as well as the components of the below chart and how it relates to skeletal muscle

It might be splitting hairs, or irrelevant, but I find this kind of research fun and enjoyable. Just looking for some other topics you've considered

View attachment 226328

This topic just came up in a roundtable talk I was watching with Kurt, Dean, and Steve I believe. I realized "well shit ofcourse... I really should give it a break before I start the serostim". I'm not super knowledgeable on any of these subjects any more than the average enthusiast, I'm just like you in that I find a topic that interests me and I go down the rabbit hole learning about it.

Most topics that I dig deep into are diet related. Out of all the training and PED protocols, nothing has given me better results than manipulations in my diet. Last year I learned that during my push phase I responded great to a well timed intermittent fast that got the anabolic gears churning again. Just like a refeed day during a cut. It also kept me leaner which is a definite plus. I've had less inclination to dig deep into diet during this cut because these GLP-1s are an absolute cheat code. I LOVE retatrutide. I also added mirabegron 50mg 3x day (thanks Steve) and fat has melted off. No more clen cramps, shaky voice, or rapid HR from all the stims. I have some jardiance otw too that im excited to add.

The biggest lesson I've learned over the years is nothing works better than taking a break from whatever it is your doing. There are a gazillion negative feedback loops related to your diet, gear, and training... with all the genes at play, protein and enzymes increased/decreased, receptors up and downregulated it doesn't take long for the body to find homeostasis and counter your efforts. So I try not to let any 1 variable stay constant for too long.

With the IGFbp's I'm definitely going to drop the gh for several weeks before starting my push phase with serostim. I'm not convinced that Lr3 and GH together is best since Lr3 has a low affinity for the IGFbp's but its presence surely will signal IGFbp's to be produced more. Thats just more of them to soak up the IGF produced from the serostim. I'm more inclined to separate anyway just due to the cost alone.

I'll report back my results and eventually post some physique pics. I've got some severe neuropathy in my left arm and left tricep that has hindered my upper body progress the past couple years, its pretty depressing but not much i can do. No idea where tf it came from unless it was a skiing or mtb accident, maybe severely pinched nerve but it hasn't healed since chiropractor straightened me out

 

[Thick500]

Back in 2012 you were running the same drugs.

No magic stack then and there isn't one now

Ain't that the damn truth!!

I will say retatrutide has been borderline magic though, not sure if low dosing it during a push phase will be as magical but I am so prone to insulin resistance I hope it helps.

 

[luki7788]

Today I just posted on IG why the whole increase (or rather that its increase is misinterpreted) of BP3 is a myth

 

[bbxtreme]

This topic just came up in a roundtable talk I was watching with Kurt, Dean, and Steve I believe. I realized "well shit ofcourse... I really should give it a break before I start the serostim". I'm not super knowledgeable on any of these subjects any more than the average enthusiast, I'm just like you in that I find a topic that interests me and I go down the rabbit hole learning about it.

Most topics that I dig deep into are diet related. Out of all the training and PED protocols, nothing has given me better results than manipulations in my diet. Last year I learned that during my push phase I responded great to a well timed intermittent fast that got the anabolic gears churning again. Just like a refeed day during a cut. It also kept me leaner which is a definite plus. I've had less inclination to dig deep into diet during this cut because these GLP-1s are an absolute cheat code. I LOVE retatrutide. I also added mirabegron 50mg 3x day (thanks Steve) and fat has melted off. No more clen cramps, shaky voice, or rapid HR from all the stims. I have some jardiance otw too that im excited to add.

The biggest lesson I've learned over the years is nothing works better than taking a break from whatever it is your doing. There are a gazillion negative feedback loops related to your diet, gear, and training... with all the genes at play, protein and enzymes increased/decreased, receptors up and downregulated it doesn't take long for the body to find homeostasis and counter your efforts. So I try not to let any 1 variable stay constant for too long.

With the IGFbp's I'm definitely going to drop the gh for several weeks before starting my push phase with serostim. I'm not convinced that Lr3 and GH together is best since Lr3 has a low affinity for the IGFbp's but its presence surely will signal IGFbp's to be produced more. Thats just more of them to soak up the IGF produced from the serostim. I'm more inclined to separate anyway just due to the cost alone.

I'll report back my results and eventually post some physique pics. I've got some severe neuropathy in my left arm and left tricep that has hindered my upper body progress the past couple years, it’s pretty depressing but not much i can do. No idea where tf it came from unless it was a skiing or mtb accident, maybe severely pinched nerve but it hasn't healed since chiropractor straightened me out

I’m sure you’re ontop of this, but using Mirabegron as a beta-3 receptor agonist to mask the side effects of Clen does not solve the need for taurine and magnesium while using it.

Clen will deplete these in the body so supplementing with each are essential IMO for most.

 

[Sectør]

This topic just came up in a roundtable talk I was watching with Kurt, Dean, and Steve I believe. I realized "well shit ofcourse... I really should give it a break before I start the serostim". I'm not super knowledgeable on any of these subjects any more than the average enthusiast, I'm just like you in that I find a topic that interests me and I go down the rabbit hole learning about it.

Most topics that I dig deep into are diet related. Out of all the training and PED protocols, nothing has given me better results than manipulations in my diet. Last year I learned that during my push phase I responded great to a well timed intermittent fast that got the anabolic gears churning again. Just like a refeed day during a cut. It also kept me leaner which is a definite plus. I've had less inclination to dig deep into diet during this cut because these GLP-1s are an absolute cheat code. I LOVE retatrutide. I also added mirabegron 50mg 3x day (thanks Steve) and fat has melted off. No more clen cramps, shaky voice, or rapid HR from all the stims. I have some jardiance otw too that im excited to add.

The biggest lesson I've learned over the years is nothing works better than taking a break from whatever it is your doing. There are a gazillion negative feedback loops related to your diet, gear, and training... with all the genes at play, protein and enzymes increased/decreased, receptors up and downregulated it doesn't take long for the body to find homeostasis and counter your efforts. So I try not to let any 1 variable stay constant for too long.

With the IGFbp's I'm definitely going to drop the gh for several weeks before starting my push phase with serostim. I'm not convinced that Lr3 and GH together is best since Lr3 has a low affinity for the IGFbp's but its presence surely will signal IGFbp's to be produced more. Thats just more of them to soak up the IGF produced from the serostim. I'm more inclined to separate anyway just due to the cost alone.

I'll report back my results and eventually post some physique pics. I've got some severe neuropathy in my left arm and left tricep that has hindered my upper body progress the past couple years, its pretty depressing but not much i can do. No idea where tf it came from unless it was a skiing or mtb accident, maybe severely pinched nerve but it hasn't healed since chiropractor straightened me out

I’ve kind of been reading into myostatin today, and methods to reduce it and optimize it. I know it’s been discussed some on here, with regards to some of the more experimental types of myostatin inhibitors (which I’m looking to avoid because there’s a lot of unknown health factors and variables), but I did find some interesting safe and natural ways to reduce it

I’ll post it up.

Here’s a safe and effective supplement stack designed to help reduce myostatin and support muscle growth, using widely available and well-tolerated ingredients:

---

Safe Myostatin-Reducing Supplement Stack​

Creatine Monohydrate​

• Dosage: 3–5g/day
• Timing: Anytime, preferably post-workout or with a meal
• Benefits: Increases strength and muscle mass, reduces myostatin with training

​

---

Whey Protein Isolate​

• Benefits: High in leucine; supports muscle protein synthesis and recovery
• Notes: Opt for a brand with minimal additives and high leucine content.

---

4. Omega-3 Fish Oil (EPA/DHA)​

• Dosage: 1–3g combined EPA/DHA per day
• Timing: With meals (fat helps absorption)
• Benefits: Anti-inflammatory, may indirectly reduce myostatin

---

5. Vitamin D3​

• Dosage: 2,000–5,000 IU/day (based on blood test)
• Timing: With a fat-containing meal
• Benefits: Low vitamin D levels are linked to poor muscle function and possibly higher myostatin
• Notes: Get levels tested to tailor the dose.

^^ now most of these are well known. But I did come across another safe supplement that I’ve never heard of called HMB that seems to be a derivative of leucine. Leucine was a reoccurring mention in some of the reading I did for not only decreasing myostatin but also enhancing muscle protein synthesis (mps) Here’s the information on HMB. I just ordered some today off Amazon and am going to give it a try

HMB and Myostatin: What the Science Says​

• Animal and cell studies have shown HMB can suppress myostatin expression and enhance muscle protein synthesis.
• In human studies, the effect is less direct but promising — HMB helps reduce muscle breakdown, especially in untrained individuals or during caloric deficits.
• HMB also increases IGF-1, which is linked to muscle growth and may indirectly lower myostatin.

---

HMB Summary​

• Dosage: 3 grams per day (split into 2–3 doses)
• Forms: HMB Free Acid (absorbs faster) or HMB Calcium (most common)
• Timing: Around workouts or with meals

---

Stacking HMB with Other Myostatin Inhibitors​

HMB can be part of a synergistic stack:

• Creatine + HMB – enhances strength and muscle protection
• HMB + Epicatechin – potential dual myostatin suppression
• HMB + Protein – amplifies muscle preservation in a deficit

---

Bottom Line:​

HMB is a safe and well-researched supplement that may reduce myostatin and help preserve muscle, especially during stress, aging, or inactivity. Its effects are modest but enhanced when combined with training and other supplements.

 

[bbxtreme]

I’m sure you’re ontop of this, but using Mirabegron as a beta-3 receptor agonist to mask the side effects of Clen does not solve the need for taurine and magnesium while using it.

Clen will deplete these in the body so supplementing with each are essential IMO for most.

@Thick500 do you have a link to this video? I just re-read your post and 50mg 3X daily is 3 times the general top end prescription. There’s also a good risk for insomnia and anxiety as side effects as well.

I would love to see the video to ensure I am not missing some context here.

 

[Gaintrain]

Hey all. Long time lurker, rare poster/commenter here looking for some experienced advice.

I've been dieting semi-hard for roughly 8 weeks. 5'10" 220lbs and 8-9%. Going to diet down for another 6-8 weeks to maybe 6% and then rebound blast for 12-16weeks maybe longer. Unless I'm not patient enough and I start this up in 2 weeks who knows.

I've been running generic gh for 2-3 years and currently at 6-8iu per day at night.

I want to optimize my cycle, diet, training etc for the best response to IGF during my growth phase. I've got 2 x 10vial kits of LR3 0.1mg per vial from pharmaqo and 3 kits of Serostim. My concern is IGF binding proteins being high from chronically elevated IGF for the past few years. So... was planning to give the GH a break at some point before I rebound blast to let those protein levels drop considerably but not sure how long that will take (2 weeks, 4 weeks, longer?). I assume there is no other way to achieve this.

Also, would I be shooting myself in the foot running the LR3 with the Serostim? I want to get the most out of both of these products obviously so considering 40 days of LR3 followed (50mcg per day) by 63 days of 6iu Serostim instead of together?

Low dose tren will be present throughout to sensitize IGF-1 receptors. Also Test, Primo, and anadrol for 4 weeks at some point maybe when initial rebound gains slow. I may use EQ if I can get estrogen where I want it (I usually use either primo or eq).

Something around 1g test, 600 primo, 75mg Tren E, and 50mg anadrol.

I also have humalog and Lantus to throw i there, Lantus being known to elevate IGF-1 by binding to the receptors and potentially upregulating IGF receptors. So Lantus everyday?? I have retatrutide to throw in low dose to keep insulin resistance at bay.

Anything else to unregulate IGF-1 receptors and lower the binding proteins?

Should I drop gear to cruise levels before I blast? Had planned to cruise after the rebound. Paul of Anabolic Bodybuilding had great success post show going straight into rebound blast with Lantus, gh, test, primo, and NPP. Thought I would do something similar.

Please offer thoughts, suggestions, any misconceptions or mistakes I have in planning this. I'm 41 with limited growth years ahead of me so have to get a bit nerdy with my setups to see gains, my days of just pin, eat, lift and forget about it to see progress are over for sure.

running all 6-8iu at night? why not spread throughout the day to get more IGF1 spikes?

I have always been coached when doing anything more the 3 iu split the dose up.....

 

[kadafi2]

@Sector, you've really never heard of HMB? It's hard to believe that you know anything about steroids, but you haven't even heard of such a well-known supplement. Personally, I wouldn't waste my money on hmb.

 

[Thick500]

@Thick500 do you have a link to this video? I just re-read your post and 50mg 3X daily is 3 times the general top end prescription. There’s also a good risk for insomnia and anxiety as side effects as well.

I would love to see the video to ensure I am not missing some context here.

Check 43:00 for all the amazing side benefits this drug has.

I got my doc to prescribe me 50mg once per day (stuff is expensive AF). I found adding source for it and upped to 2 x then later 3 x with no noticeable sides other than slight BP amd HR increase. Nothing telmisartan and nebivolol hasn't corrected. The HR increase from retatrutide was in play too but that subsidies for me after a few weeks at same dose and comes back with any substantial increase.

 

[Thick500]

I’m sure you’re ontop of this, but using Mirabegron as a beta-3 receptor agonist to mask the side effects of Clen does not solve the need for taurine and magnesium while using it.

Clen will deplete these in the body so supplementing with each are essential IMO for most.

Just to clarify im not using mirabegron with clen (although I have added 20mcg once or twice to test) im using it in place of clen.

 

[Thick500]

I’ve kind of been reading into myostatin today, and methods to reduce it and optimize it. I know it’s been discussed some on here, with regards to some of the more experimental types of myostatin inhibitors (which I’m looking to avoid because there’s a lot of unknown health factors and variables), but I did find some interesting safe and natural ways to reduce it

I’ll post it up.

Here’s a safe and effective supplement stack designed to help reduce myostatin and support muscle growth, using widely available and well-tolerated ingredients:

---

Safe Myostatin-Reducing Supplement Stack​

Creatine Monohydrate​

• Dosage: 3–5g/day
• Timing: Anytime, preferably post-workout or with a meal
• Benefits: Increases strength and muscle mass, reduces myostatin with training

​

---

Whey Protein Isolate​

• Benefits: High in leucine; supports muscle protein synthesis and recovery
• Notes: Opt for a brand with minimal additives and high leucine content.

---

4. Omega-3 Fish Oil (EPA/DHA)​

• Dosage: 1–3g combined EPA/DHA per day
• Timing: With meals (fat helps absorption)
• Benefits: Anti-inflammatory, may indirectly reduce myostatin

---

5. Vitamin D3​

• Dosage: 2,000–5,000 IU/day (based on blood test)
• Timing: With a fat-containing meal
• Benefits: Low vitamin D levels are linked to poor muscle function and possibly higher myostatin
• Notes: Get levels tested to tailor the dose.

^^ now most of these are well known. But I did come across another safe supplement that I’ve never heard of called HMB that seems to be a derivative of leucine. Leucine was a reoccurring mention in some of the reading I did for not only decreasing myostatin but also enhancing muscle protein synthesis (mps) Here’s the information on HMB. I just ordered some today off Amazon and am going to give it a try

HMB and Myostatin: What the Science Says​

• Animal and cell studies have shown HMB can suppress myostatin expression and enhance muscle protein synthesis.
• In human studies, the effect is less direct but promising — HMB helps reduce muscle breakdown, especially in untrained individuals or during caloric deficits.
• HMB also increases IGF-1, which is linked to muscle growth and may indirectly lower myostatin.

---

HMB Summary​

• Dosage: 3 grams per day (split into 2–3 doses)
• Forms: HMB Free Acid (absorbs faster) or HMB Calcium (most common)
• Timing: Around workouts or with meals

---

Stacking HMB with Other Myostatin Inhibitors​

HMB can be part of a synergistic stack:

• Creatine + HMB – enhances strength and muscle protection
• HMB + Epicatechin – potential dual myostatin suppression
• HMB + Protein – amplifies muscle preservation in a deficit

---

Bottom Line:​

HMB is a safe and well-researched supplement that may reduce myostatin and help preserve muscle, especially during stress, aging, or inactivity. Its effects are modest but enhanced when combined with training and other supplements.

I absolutely LOVE epicatechin. It pulls subQ water which is very noticeable when you are lean, increases NO (adding this while on EQ took vascularity to the moon), it increases endurance and stamina on par with cardarine for me, and has a ton of amazing health benefits. Pro tip: pop cap in your mouth and mix with lemon juice, absorption is increased significantly. Also quercitin increases bioavailability.

Careful though, too much and your joints will ache like your on winny and letrozole. Not sure if this is related to myostatin inhibition but I had same side from follistatin years ago.

I stay on HMB but pretty sure it's playing a bigger role in a steep deficit to help retain muscle tissue than helping to grow in a surplus. Recovery and DOMS improvements are very noticeable on it though.

 

[Sectør]

I absolutely LOVE epicatechin. It pulls subQ water which is very noticeable when you are lean, increases NO (adding this while on EQ took vascularity to the moon), it increases endurance and stamina on par with cardarine for me, and has a ton of amazing health benefits. Pro tip: pop cap in your mouth and mix with lemon juice, absorption is increased significantly. Also quercitin increases bioavailability.

Careful though, too much and your joints will ache like your on winny and letrozole. Not sure if this is related to myostatin inhibition but I had same side from follistatin years ago.

I stay on HMB but pretty sure it's playing a bigger role in a steep deficit to help retain muscle tissue than helping to grow in a surplus. Recovery and DOMS improvements are very noticeable on it though.

Sounds promising. I’ll give it a try based off your feedback. That sounds kind of fun.

what was your experience with follisatin out of curiosity? I saw it mentioned a few times as well when reading about myostatin

 

[Thick500]

Just took epicatechin before my morning cardio (I slept late AF im on east coast usa). On stair climber now at home.

 

[Thick500]

Sounds promising. I’ll give it a try based off your feedback. That sounds kind of fun.

what was your experience with follisatin out of curiosity? I saw it mentioned a few times as well when reading about myostatin

It may be responsible for the nerve damage in my left arm and atrophy in left tricep but I can't say for sure, I was site pinning for potential localized growth. I can't say for certain but I won't touch it again. It could have had some foreign contaminate like a neurotoxic heavy metal but ill never know.

 

[bbxtreme]

Check 43:00 for all the amazing side benefits this drug has.

I got my doc to prescribe me 50mg once per day (stuff is expensive AF). I found adding source for it and upped to 2 x then later 3 x with no noticeable sides other than slight BP amd HR increase. Nothing telmisartan and nebivolol hasn't corrected. The HR increase from retatrutide was in play too but that subsidies for me after a few weeks at same dose and comes back with any substantial increase.

The problem with guys like Steve (and the reason I don’t follow them) is that they’re making videos for clicks and likes.

He does a good job with his verbiage in the video, but he’s pretty much pitching a risky hypothesis and asking others to try it and see if it works. The drug metabolism conflicts alone make this very risky. But there’s so many other things at play with this medication and using it in bodybuilding for fat loss that we simply don’t know. It’s also hundreds of $300-$500 per bottle.

I am going to bow out here and let you guys keep geeking out in this thread. But remember we have decades of experience and knowledge with clen. There is also no top coach or top bodybuilders out here doing this stuff. Just because we can use science to pitch a hypothesis doesn’t mean it’s the best thing to do- especially in bodybuilding. That is risky.