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cycling for best effect.

FutureFreak

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
1,640
I have read that androgen receptor downregulation is a myth and that if anything being on a cycle up-regulates receptors. Before having this brought to my attention, last fall and winter I remained natural and had a natty off-season hoping that once I introduce AAS pre-contest I will be "refreshed" or shocked from the 8 month break and grow into the show. Well, I dont think that happened. I feel I shortchanged myself on being bigger come showtime if I had got a few bulking cycles under my belt. What do you guys think? Overall, did I miss out on LBM or was my thinking in that I would "respond" better from the natural off season have any merit? I know I am approaching this off-season different as I will make a showing at a big ass regional show so I will not short change myself unless I am convinced other wise?
 
Honestly, for max gains, going natty is counter productive & silly. Going off should really mean lowering dosages to a HRT level. Maybe a little more. This way, you do not lose all your gains & then when you ramp up the dosage to bulk, you don't jsut end up gaining back the muscle you lost when you went natty. A good off cycle would be, imo, 250 test, 5iu GH/day, femera & 60mcg IGF 3x a week. This would mean almost no muscle loss & maybe even a little gain in muscle & loss in fat. I'll never go off again, especially since I'm now officially on HRT.
 
Qwert said:
Honestly, for max gains, going natty is counter productive & silly. Going off should really mean lowering dosages to a HRT level. Maybe a little more. This way, you do not lose all your gains & then when you ramp up the dosage to bulk, you don't jsut end up gaining back the muscle you lost when you went natty. A good off cycle would be, imo, 250 test, 5iu GH/day, femera & 60mcg IGF 3x a week. This would mean almost no muscle loss & maybe even a little gain in muscle & loss in fat. I'll never go off again, especially since I'm now officially on HRT.

How old are you Qwert? Just curious...
Would you recommend this to a younger competitive bodybuilder???...say in the early to mid twenties??
 
How about using Proviron?

"Let´s delve into some of the positive points of this drug before we go any farther. Androgen Receptors are found in fat cells as well as muscle cells(5), and whilethey act on the AR in muscle cells to promote growth, they also act directly on the AR in fat cells to affect fat burning.(9)(3) The stronger the androgen binds to the A.R, the higher the lipolytic (fat burning) effect on adipose (fat)tissue(6)(2). As if that´s not enough good news, some steroids (notably, testosterone) even increase the numbers of A.R. in muscle and fat (9)(7). Thus, if you are taking a simple stack of proviron and testosterone, you´ll have more of the test you shoot as free testosterone floating around building muscle (compliments of the Proviron), more androgen receptors to be bound to (compliments of your testosterone) by your Proviron, thus causing more fat loss. Testosterone and Proviron are a very nice synergistic stack, pretty nearly an "ideal" stack of an oral and injectable, because both drugs will actually act to enhance the effect of the other.

So what we have here is a steroid which can basically make other steroids more effective by preventing their conversion into estrogen, as well as increasing the amount of circulating free testosterone in your body. This of course all provides a more hardened and quality look to muscles. Proviron is very much a "synergistic" drug in this respect, and it´s inclusion in any cycle would definitely make all of the other steroids perform better, and provide better gains. This is all compounded by the fact that proviron is a very lipolytic (fat-burning) drug."


Aside from all this, my competitive friends have all told me roughly the same, take 50-75mg proviron daily and you'll have amazing results with whatever you're taking, these guys go through bottles of proviron like crazy. But above is the science behind it, in layman's terms, proviron basically opens up your body's AR receptors and allows you to use more of them (very crude explanation, I know) proviron also acts locally as a fat burner.
 
HELLA SWOLE said:
How old are you Qwert? Just curious...
Would you recommend this to a younger competitive bodybuilder???...say in the early to mid twenties??

I'm in my early 30s & I don't really make recommendations to people about not coming off. However, if you don't want to keep yo yo-ing & make the best gains possible, going totally off is counter productive. Trust me, I've done it so many times & gotten burned every single time. I'm on HRT now anyway, so when I'm done bulking, I just go down to 250mgs a week & cycle in non AAS drusg such as GH/IGF/clen. As one gets older, unless they go on HRT, you can kiss your gains & muscle mass goodbye....slowly, since yoru own test/GH/Thyroid levels diminish. So to counter this, HRT is the only way to go.
 
QWERT IS GIVING YOU THE HARSH REALITY.. i am in my very late 30's.. i can tell ya that trying to restore htpa at my age is just not going to go well.. naturally, i will have lower test levels at my age.. and in all honesty, show me a natty competitor in his late 30's or early 40's that is not diminished considerably.. i do the same thing as qwert.. 250 mgs a week when off.. that puts me at around 700-800 test count on blood profile.. more than enough to hold as much as i can and still have great workouts.. when going on.. i add more test and a anabolic.. pretty simple.. i will also use some nolva when coming off to help with any excess estro from causing problems.. that being said.. if i was in my early 20's i would come off and restore natural levels.. it is best based on your age..
 
I still think since everyone is so individual in this sport. One can recover much more efficiently than others and maintain gains while letting their hormones balance out to normal. Especially the younger athletes in early to mid 20's. However, Qwert, I know if I did a protocol such as you suggested, I couldnt imagine what I would compete at next, damn it sounds tempting but I must come off for health and finances. Just out of curiosity Qwert, what is a typical cycle when you "ramp" up the doses? How many mg's of test a week to grow for a "bulker."?
 
FutureFreak said:
I still think since everyone is so individual in this sport. One can recover much more efficiently than others and maintain gains while letting their hormones balance out to normal. Especially the younger athletes in early to mid 20's. However, Qwert, I know if I did a protocol such as you suggested, I couldnt imagine what I would compete at next, damn it sounds tempting but I must come off for health and finances. Just out of curiosity Qwert, what is a typical cycle when you "ramp" up the doses? How many mg's of test a week to grow for a "bulker."?

I keep it very simple. I cycle for 12 weeks with around 1000mg test & 400mg of EQ. I always take femera at 2.5mg a day & up my GH to 10iu/day & throw in IGF as well halfway through my cycle.
 
for those that do not want to cruise inbetween cycles see my igf experiment thread. i am in my 30's and know that eventually hrt will be necessary but wish to delay this as long as possible. i will be off all aas 9 weeks as of monday and have actually made further gains while giving my system a break via the igf. the dosing theory of the igf should let me continue use igf effectively for hopefully 8+ weeks. i will continue to update the thread with results. i think no matter how you choose to cycle the most important thing is to monitor your health via regular blood work. you may feel and look great on the outside but it can be a very different story on the inside.
 
Kind of off topic but, Edge was speaking of igf-1 and I am currently running it however, I was doing my morning dose and dropped the little vial on the kitchen!!! it was a mild fall but is it ruined or what? Is the amino acid chain that fragile? Im pissed about this and perhaps through money down the drain? Any input?
 
FutureFreak said:
Kind of off topic but, Edge was speaking of igf-1 and I am currently running it however, I was doing my morning dose and dropped the little vial on the kitchen!!! it was a mild fall but is it ruined or what? Is the amino acid chain that fragile? Im pissed about this and perhaps through money down the drain? Any input?


It will be fine. I've dropped GH & IGF vials before & no problems. As long as it doesn't shatter, it's probably still good.
 
Question for LATS (or anyone)

I'm 35 and I don't want to lose gains but I'm currently off. What happened to me is that I was just no longer responding to my cycle. Test/tren. I could have upped the dosages considerably since I was only at 400/100mg per week. I guess my question is this: The effects disappeared why? Downregulation? Saturation? I should have come off then I think when appetite and gains stopped. Where is it that down-regulation is a myth? I thought any receptor can down-regulate. Specifically, the overall density of receptor sites on the cell diminishes.

Now that I'm off completely I'm wondering about my test levels. Perhaps I'll get a blood test this coming week. With extended HRT, do you lose your testicular size? So far I'm fine in that dept. I was waiting for my 40's to roll around before I began to consider the always-on approach. Maybe I'm flawed in my thinking. My doc who's internal medicine seems to think I'm inline but still wants me to consider a cholesterol reducer. I'm not ready to agree to that yet. The last time I came off I did a blood test two weeks after PCT and was 262ng/dL (barely above minimum) but a month later when I started my next HRT cycle, I was already up to 680ng's/dL. I welcome your advice bro.

Not stealing a thread here, anyone can chime in and please do. Phil also said he read an article about cortisol. I'll try to get that article from him. I wish I knew a really 'sympathetic' endocrinologist.
 
Last edited:
Qwert said:
I keep it very simple. I cycle for 12 weeks with around 1000mg test & 400mg of EQ. I always take femera at 2.5mg a day & up my GH to 10iu/day & throw in IGF as well halfway through my cycle.

What dose do you cruise on Qwert. Thanks.
 
I will try and find the study or article dismissing the down-regulation theory.
 
Hiramabiff said:
How about using Proviron?

Thus, if you are taking a simple stack of proviron and testosterone, you´ll have more of the test you shoot as free testosterone floating around building muscle (compliments of the Proviron), my competitive friends have all told me roughly the same, take 50-75mg proviron daily and you'll have amazing results with whatever you're taking, these guys go through bottles of proviron like crazy. But above is the science behind it, in layman's terms, proviron basically opens up your body's AR receptors and allows you to use more of them (very crude explanation, I know) proviron also acts locally as a fat burner.

INTRESTING
 
OuchThatHurts said:
I guess my question is this: The effects disappeared why? Downregulation? Saturation? I should have come off then I think when appetite and gains stopped. Where is it that down-regulation is a myth? I thought any receptor can down-regulate. Specifically, the overall density of receptor sites on the cell diminishes.
I think you simply plateaued at that dosage. Even if there is no downregulation gains will stop at some point, right? Now if you actually started regressing in muscle mass I'd be worried about downregulation.

Regarding the androgen receptor downregualtion, one study with HRT level dosages of test showed initial upregulation and then they fell to baseline at 6 months. I think other short term studies have shown upregulation with high dosages of androgens. I think the issue is still a bit in the air at this point.
 
Excerpt from an article by Karl Hoffman:
A Few Common Bodybuilding Myths
by
Karl Hoffman

ANABOLIC STEROIDS DOWNREGULATE THE ANDROGEN RECEPTOR


Or is it upregulate? It seems there are two schools of thought on this, with the answer probably lying somewhere in between. Short-term in vitro and in vivo studies generally show that androgens upregulate the androgen receptor (AR) in skeletal muscle. For example, in humans given 15 mg of oxandrolone daily for 5 days, the skeletal muscle AR density nearly doubled (15). When exposed to testosterone in vitro, skeletal muscle AR expression increased significantly (16).

In longer-term studies the picture is somewhat different. One study looked at AR expression in androgen treated sedentary rats vs nontreated exercised rats over 8 weeks. To quote from the abstract:


Results show that contractile muscular activity always increased the quantity of receptors whereas the steroid treatment decreased it. Thus for EDL (extensorum digitorum longus) and SOL (soleus) of control trained rats the quantity of receptors was 0.78 and 0.82 fmol/mg protein, respectively, compared to 0.23 and 0.43 fmol/mg protein for sedentary testosterone-treated rats. (17)

In long term studies in humans we get yet a different picture. In work conducted by Sheffield-Moore et. al., (18) older men were supplemented with testosterone so as to bring their testosterone levels into the mid-to-high physiological range. Androgen receptor expression had more than doubled after one month of treatment, yet by 6 months had returned to baseline. This pattern suggested to the authors that cycling androgen replacement much as bodybuilders cycle AAS might be a viable strategy:


This pattern of AR expression raises the possibility that cycling of testosterone administration could produce effects on skeletal muscle analogous to continuous administration. Such a paradigm would be beneficial by administering significantly less testosterone for similar anabolic outcomes, thus minimizing the possibility of side effects.

So despite the passion with which advocates of either AR upregulation or downregulation defend their positions, the research is equivocal. Would exercise combined with AAS maintain increased AR expression, or would the addition of exercise serve to offset the AAS induced AR downregulation observed in the study by Bricout et al? These are just a couple of questions that require further research, and could lead to answers on why exercise combined with AAS use is so much more productive than simply using steroids alone when it comes to building muscle mass.

(15) Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR,
Ferrando AA
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11

(16) Doumit ME, Cook DR, Merkel RA..Endocrinology 1996 Apr;137(4):1385-94

(17) Bricout VA, Germain PS, Serrurier BD, Guezennec CY.Cell Mol Biol (Noisy-le-grand) 1994 May;40(3):291-4

(18) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7
 

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