dave palumbo pinning freq?

[speed]

he says even with longer estered like entate and cyp to pinn eod or 3x a week, i always read 2x a week was just fine

 

[chris250]

He believes blood levels are more stable that way...

 

[Athlete]

Emeric on this board thinks the same. When/if I ever go "on" again I'm probably going to try doing it that way.

There is a thread about it on here with Emeric talking about it, do a search.

 

[EasyEJL]

He believes blood levels are more stable that way...

its not belief, its scientifically proven fact Is 2x a week stable enough? most of the time sure. The most intriguing part is that with ED dosing of cyp your conversion to estrogen is significantly lower than 2x a week dosing. so someone who needs to use arimidex or exemestane on a cycle normally may not actually need it if dosed more often.

 

[gordo14]

Also.....

i understood Emerics thoughts to mean that pinning more often also amounted to needing less of the compound to see the maximal results.

 

[emeric delczeg]

i understood Emerics thoughts to mean that pinning more often also amounted to needing less of the compound to see the maximal results.

For health purpose. If you going for the Mr.O than is up to you how far you want to go.

 

[gordo14]

Thanks for clarification.

For health purpose. If you going for the Mr.O than is up to you how far you want to go.

You are so generous with your wisdom. Do you(or anybody) know of any studies i could reference while speaking with my doctor about my HRT. He gives 200 mg every 2 weeks. Which does help, but here i am with 3-4 more days to go before my injection and i am feeling run down, sex drive is down, and kinda depressed feeling. It seems to happen at the same time every 2 weeks. He is against frequent pinnings, however i think it would be more beneficial to my treatment. However he is against me taking the perscription and administering myself due to the stigma around steriods.

 

[EasyEJL]

1: Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6.Links
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.
Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.

Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, Sultan Qaboos University, Muscat, Oman. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients. METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported. CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.

PMID: 17143361 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement
has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide
variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,
its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated
the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and
September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving
10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.
Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for
41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL
200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior
abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated
to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.
Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration
is not officially approved by Health Canada. T
levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection
during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection
in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels
were measured however; the week 12 data are still being
collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T
was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit
0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During
the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in
pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l
(p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T
(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1
(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with
no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection
of 50�??100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and
stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers
fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of
medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term
clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further
evaluation.

 

[speed]

its not belief, its scientifically proven fact Is 2x a week stable enough? most of the time sure. The most intriguing part is that with ED dosing of cyp your conversion to estrogen is significantly lower than 2x a week dosing. so someone who needs to use arimidex or exemestane on a cycle normally may not actually need it if dosed more often.

how is it possible to create less estorogen this way, where did you pik this up at

 

[EasyEJL]

how is it possible to create less estorogen this way, where did you pik this up at

its related to thresholds, free testosterone per day, usage/excretion of estrogen, etc. I've seen a number of blood tests now that show it. Look at it like this, if you use 150mg of testosterone cyp a week, your peak level is day 1 after injection, and plasma level is roughly around 28mg for the day that day, but the day before injection its only 14. You start getting into issues of signaling your body to create more aromatase, create more SHBG and so in the end you end up with higher estrogen because it sees the high peaks. if you dose it every day, you end up at more like 20mg a day so your body doesn't use the feedback loops as much.

hmm my wording sucks there.

 

[GoneForever]

Im sure Palumbo uses a hefty amount of test, so its probably not smart to use 1500-2000mg test only 2x per week. Those would be some big shots.

 

[emeric delczeg]

its related to thresholds, free testosterone per day, usage/excretion of estrogen, etc. I've seen a number of blood tests now that show it. Look at it like this, if you use 150mg of testosterone cyp a week, your peak level is day 1 after injection, and plasma level is roughly around 28mg for the day that day, but the day before injection its only 14. You start getting into issues of signaling your body to create more aromatase, create more SHBG and so in the end you end up with higher estrogen because it sees the high peaks. if you dose it every day, you end up at more like 20mg a day so your body doesn't use the feedback loops as much.

hmm my wording sucks there.

Bingo, and if some one would take two injections per day 10mg every 12 hours it would be even better. This way it would be very possible to kip the cholesterol levels in normal range (testosterone is synthesized from cholesterol) and with some added supplements to kip the Cortisol at normal range and with continuous phosphorylation of the StAR (Steroidogenesis activator protein) I do believe that the testis would not shot down. I don`t recommend this to any one we just talking about, yes?

 

[emeric delczeg]

Im sure Palumbo uses a hefty amount of test, so its probably not smart to use 1500-2000mg test only 2x per week. Those would be some big shots.

We don`t know what Palumbo uses, but 1500-2000 it is to much.

 

[EasyEJL]

Bingo, and if some one would take two injections per day 10mg every 12 hours it would be even better. This way it would be very possible to kip the cholesterol levels in normal range (testosterone is synthesized from cholesterol) and with some added supplements to kip the Cortisol at normal range and with continuous phosphorylation of the StAR (Steroidogenesis activator protein) I do believe that the testis would not shot down. I don`t recommend this to any one we just talking about, yes?

yes, particularly in this case i'd say the scientific data would suggest testosterone base in oil as the most likely to suit this, as you get a short but not too short halflife, and then its clear. I think in water it would more likely cause issues than help as it really is just suspended then and its harder to gauge halflife. the positive part is that it wouldnt even need solvents as you could do 50mg/ml in ethyl oleate, and still dose .2 -.25 ml 2x a day.

 

[emeric delczeg]

yes, particularly in this case i'd say the scientific data would suggest testosterone base in oil as the most likely to suit this, as you get a short but not too short halflife, and then its clear. I think in water it would more likely cause issues than help as it really is just suspended then and its harder to gauge halflife. the positive part is that it wouldnt even need solvents as you could do 50mg/ml in ethyl oleate, and still dose .2 -.25 ml 2x a day.

Yes, definitely has to be oil base, either test Cyp or Ananth no Prop or Suspension.

 

[chris250]

Emeric,

So lets say your going for pro size, and want to be safe with it as possiable...How would you do that with your AAS ??? Just curious, as to how this could be done as safe/healthy as possiable (if it is possiable?)

chris

 

[Matt007]

So did I read that study correctly in that they were injecting Test subcutaneously much in the same way you'd do a GH or Insulin shot? Pinch abdominal fat and inject there type of thing?
Has anyone done this before? Results?

 

[EasyEJL]

So did I read that study correctly in that they were injecting Test subcutaneously much in the same way you'd do a GH or Insulin shot? Pinch abdominal fat and inject there type of thing?
Has anyone done this before? Results?

yep, just like that injection wise. I know a number of people who now do their TRT that way. It seems best to start off with more "normal" injecting at first as it takes a little longer for levels to stabilize that way it seems, I think because fat distribution of blood vessels is uneven as well. but if you are already on TRT, then starting to move to this should be easy and clean as you'l have some in system already

 

[Matt007]

Thanks Easy, so for sake of arguement if you were going to inject say 250-300mgs of enanthate a week..you'd do what 2 sub Q injections of about half a ml each if you were using 250mg/ml ?

 

[EasyEJL]

probably 3 just to be small as possible each time.