Dave Palumbos keto Training

[AFJ]

I like Dave and a lot he has to say. I was trained and educated by a lot of Dan Duchains training theories. I love and believe in ketosis diets. But have a question that I cant quit get passed. How the heck can you lift hard in ketosis? Even Duchaine says this will cause muscle loss. Palumbo talks about doing light cardio so you don't burn muscle for energy. Than how the heck can you lift hard and not burn muscle for energy. Doesn't your muscles require glucose to fuel themselves and protect themselves from muscle loss. I do a four day split surrounding my muscles with pre, during, and post carb shakes. I can get into ketosis by Friday and dont lift for three days but focus on long low intensity cardio. Anyway wanted to get your guys thoughts.

 

[chihuahua]

Well I can only give you my personal experiences with keto. I for one can't put on any size while doing keto. Trust me I've tried them all. Targeted keto, carb cycling, anabolic diet, etc. Now for fat loss that's a completely different story. Keto with IF and the fat will just come right off even with 2 days of carb loading. Hope this helps

 

[AFJ]

Well I can only give you my personal experiences with keto. I for one can't put on any size while doing keto. Trust me I've tried them all. Targeted keto, carb cycling, anabolic diet, etc. Now for fat loss that's a completely different story. Keto with IF and the fat will just come right off even with 2 days of carb loading. Hope this helps

Thanks bro. I also have a lot of personal experience with this. I just have so much respect for Dave but this boggles the mind.

 

[Beti ona]

Maybe you want to check these links:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

 

[mexbeast]

First of all if you are having carbs you are not doing a keto diet, did you read the bodyopus book? Apparently not, if you want to get into ketosis, you must not eat carbs,, you know what no carbs means, right? Once you get into ketosis your body uses ketones for fuel not carbs, that's why Dan recommended working out in the 6 rep range, he also recommended doing as much cardio as possible for maximum fat loss, just before you do a recomp work out you get out of keto with a piece of fruit, then do your work out in the 20 rep range and even super sets to burn as much glucose as possible.
The goal was to lose as much fat as possible and maintain or even gain some muscle without having to resort to aas, you have to read and understand the true meaning of a cyclic ketogenic diet, even some of the vets here don't really understand it, they think the brain can only use glucose as fuel, but the reality is it can also use ketones.

 

[guest1337]

Once you're fat adapted it's not such a struggle. Give it some time, I still hit PRs in Keto and grow as long as intake is sufficient and electrolytes/water intake is adequate.

 

[AFJ]

First of all if you are having carbs you are not doing a keto diet, did you read the bodyopus book? Apparently not, if you want to get into ketosis, you must not eat carbs,, you know what no carbs means, right? Once you get into ketosis your body uses ketones for fuel not carbs, that's why Dan recommended working out in the 6 rep range, he also recommended doing as much cardio as possible for maximum fat loss, just before you do a recomp work out you get out of keto with a piece of fruit, then do your work out in the 20 rep range and even super sets to burn as much glucose as possible.
The goal was to lose as much fat as possible and maintain or even gain some muscle without having to resort to aas, you have to read and understand the true meaning of a cyclic ketogenic diet, even some of the vets here don't really understand it, they think the brain can only use glucose as fuel, but the reality is it can also use ketones.

Actually bro you should read my post. I surround my workouts with carbs Monday through Thursday. On Thursday after heavy leg day I start shutting down all carbs. I know how to manipulate insulin and metformin to get me into ketosis quick by Friday morning. Keto strips are a deep purple when I awake. I use Friday-Sunday to do long volume correct intensity cardio. So I am only in ketosis for 3 days. If I need more days to burn fat I make the correct adjustments.

 

[AFJ]

My main question was if Dave is so concerned with being at the right heart range during cardio, as not to use muscle for energy, then how can you not be concerned using muscle for energy when your in an anaerobic state. So my thought process was to train hard around carbs, and then use ketosis for strictly fat burning cardio without any weight training. Some times, if necessary I do 5-7 days of ketosis still without weight training. I feel I am pretty strong when it comes to Dan Ducahines theories. I did read his book but was fortunate to have many phone conversations with him when he was a live. Dan's book takes you out of Ketosis by eating around 100-200 calories before the depletion workout. So technically you are not in ketosis during the depletion workout, but are depleting the last bit of glucose in the muscles so you can super compensate them. As far as lifting in the 6 rep range during ketosis, I will have to go back and read that again. I thought I remember Dan saying it is best not to lift during ketosis. This is my main question. In an anaerobic state during ketosis, the body is limited in fat burning ketones when it is only in a certain range. Doesn't anaerobic activity take you out of that range and force your muscles that need energy, to use muscle for energy because of the depleted glucose that would normally be used for energy and protect from muscle loss.

 

[danieltx]

There are members who can probably answer this with more science but I love keto for dieting so I'll give my take.

You really don't use that much glycogen during workouts - a number I've heard Palumbo use is most training sessions are probably around 40 grams of carbs. This is why he recommends the weekly cheat meal to refill glycogen stores. Personally, I like a big cheat on Saturday and a smaller one on Wednesday.

Also keep in mind gluconeogenesis. If your body really needs glucose / glycogen it's going to find it somewhere.

Fat is also a fuel source - muscles have intramuscular fat. Part of the reason you look so good after burger & fries / pizza / etc. isn't just the carbs, it's the fats. If you're too fat depleted you get flat, low energy, etc.

If you're doing a keto diet but still putting carbs pre / intra / post, you're limiting your rate of fat loss.

Muscle is essential proteins and essential fats. As long as you're getting enough of those nutrients you shouldn't have any noticeable muscle loss in a keto diet.

Some make the mistake of changing training style when dieting which could cause it - don't do that. However you built the muscle is the same way you should train when dieting hard, only adjusting the weights as needed to prevent injury. You should still be pushing as hard as you can each session.

 

[AFJ]

Maybe you want to check these links:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Thanks bro. This is what I was looking for. Obviously, this would give strong support and credibility to brother Dave. Not that he needs it. The dude knows his stuff. I on the other hand am still learning. Great articles my friend.

 

[tornquad201]

reply

I never had a problem training on keto and ive even trained high volume without a problem I think I use fats very good and am a carb storer

 

[AFJ]

There are members who can probably answer this with more science but I love keto for dieting so I'll give my take.

You really don't use that much glycogen during workouts - a number I've heard Palumbo use is most training sessions are probably around 40 grams of carbs. This is why he recommends the weekly cheat meal to refill glycogen stores. Personally, I like a big cheat on Saturday and a smaller one on Wednesday.

Also keep in mind gluconeogenesis. If your body really needs glucose / glycogen it's going to find it somewhere.

Fat is also a fuel source - muscles have intramuscular fat. Part of the reason you look so good after burger & fries / pizza / etc. isn't just the carbs, it's the fats. If you're too fat depleted you get flat, low energy, etc.

If you're doing a keto diet but still putting carbs pre / intra / post, you're limiting your rate of fat loss.

Muscle is essential proteins and essential fats. As long as you're getting enough of those nutrients you shouldn't have any noticeable muscle loss in a keto diet.

Some make the mistake of changing training style when dieting which could cause it - don't do that. However you built the muscle is the same way you should train when dieting hard, only adjusting the weights as needed to prevent injury. You should still be pushing as hard as you can each session.

Thank you my friend. That is very helpful. Again, I do run carbs for 4 days and understand I am not in ketosis. I get into ketosis by Friday morning and stay in ketosis until Monday, and then I start lifting and come out of ketosis until Thursday evening. I am trying to find the science of being able to lift and stay in ketosis for longer durations without the fear of losing muscle. One brother on this thread just posted some strong convincing articles to that very end.

 

[OutToLunch]

As an aside Keto stix are not a full proof way to determine ketosis. Being in ketosis for 3 days and then coming out your body is hardly keto adapted with this kind of fluctuation. You either do keto or low carb or something else. From what you are putting down. You are not keto. You are simply low carb dieting. Imo ...

 

[AFJ]

As an aside Keto stix are not a full proof way to determine ketosis. Being in ketosis for 3 days and then coming out your body is hardly keto adapted with this kind of fluctuation. You either do keto or low carb or something else. From what you are putting down. You are not keto. You are simply low carb dieting. Imo ...

Interesting. I manipulate insulin and use metformin to push last bit of glucose out into what I thought was Ketosis. That would mean that Dan Duchaines 7 day protocol doesn't really put you into ketosis. I simply modified my own ketogenic diet using Dan's principles. Any thoughts. If this is true than I need to remap a lot of things.

 

[danieltx]

Thank you my friend. That is very helpful. Again, I do run carbs for 4 days and understand I am not in ketosis. I get into ketosis by Friday morning and stay in ketosis until Monday, and then I start lifting and come out of ketosis until Thursday evening. I am trying to find the science of being able to lift and stay in ketosis for longer durations without the fear of losing muscle. One brother on this thread just posted some strong convincing articles to that very end.

The fear's all in your mind. Just quit breaking your ketosis on Monday and go for it. You'll know in a week two if you're losing muscle, and if you do you can go back to what you've always done. Science is great but it can't explain everything, the body isn't a textbook.

 

[Beti ona]

Our body is not a lover of sudden changes, so, if you are continuously in and out of ketosis, I think you will never adapt to ketosis and you will not get all of its benefits.

That does not mean you can not run a low carb or metabolic diet and get benefits, but if you are interested in ketosis, you should stay a minimum of 2 weeks to experience that ketogenic state.

The loss of muscle mass with keto is impossible if you eat protein and lift weights, or/and if you ar in advanced stages of a pre-contest diet. Everything you lose will be water and glycogen, which in no case is lost from real muscle.

 

[AFJ]

The fear's all in your mind. Just quit breaking your ketosis on Monday and go for it. You'll know in a week two if you're losing muscle, and if you do you can go back to what you've always done. Science is great but it can't explain everything, the body isn't a textbook.

Simple, true, and to the point. I think experience is the end all. I am going to try it and see what happens.

 

[11111]

Simple, true, and to the point. I think experience is the end all. I am going to try it and see what happens.

I think you should.. let us know how it goes...

i eat very low carb pretty much year round and love cyclic ketogenic dieting (like Duchaine's body opus)...

you can definitely grow muscle while getting leaner while eating this way, especially if you're taking in pre/during/post-workout nutrition (minus the high molecular weight carbs)...

I think too many people confuse the flatness during parts of these kinds of diets with muscle loss, when in reality it's not..

 

[11111]

and that's pretty cool AFJ, you used to talk to Duchaine on the phone... he was around way before my time, but he was definitely a huge pioneer in this game...

love reading his old dirty dieting newsletters..

 

[danieltx]

I think you should.. let us know how it goes...

i eat very low carb pretty much year round and love cyclic ketogenic dieting (like Duchaine's body opus)...

you can definitely grow muscle while getting leaner while eating this way, especially if you're taking in pre/during/post-workout nutrition (minus the high molecular weight carbs)...

I think too many people confuse the flatness during parts of these kinds of diets with muscle loss, when in reality it's not..

Totally agree. I bulked with a CKD during late 2017 / early 2018 and it worked great. Kept me lean and made a solid 5lb. gain over the prior year.