Dave SOUNDS OFF On Insulin

[emeric delczeg]

Likewise, I've respected you for years--for many reasons, but this subject is one I feel strongly about. This is because insulin has been used by large number of bodybuilders for decades, with just about every program you can imagine, so I think we have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't at this point.

am not saying that 1-1.5 iu won't provide ANY benefits. I just don't think they will be significant enough to produce visual results. FAR better results will be achieved with larger dosages. I am NOT an insulin abuse advocate, so I am not talking about using massive dosages of the drug, but I do know that it takes more than 1-1.5 iu to achieve optimal results.

As far as "trying it", I've tried just about every dose between 2-100 iu, at all sorts of dosing frequencies. So, while I have never used as little as 1-1.5 iu, I have used what would be considered very low doses on numerous occasions...on an infrequent dosing schedule, and the results were poor.

Aside from the fact that I think 1-1.5 iu is too low of a dose to derive optimal benefit, variances in insulin sensitivity among individuals make it impossible for a set ratio to provide equal (and therefore optimal) benefits for all.

The purpose of 1-1.5 is to restore faster the nitrogen and glycogen levels between the 2 training sections, so you can train hard as you did at you first training. I did workout 2 times per day for many years with out insulin, but my training was only 45 minutes x 2 day, not 3 hours x 2 day like the Olympic weight lifters or track and field athletes (Victor Conte) . I have a totally different point of view regarding bodybuilding, but I do respect others opinions also.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I think Emeric is an intelligent man also. I read virtually every one of his posts to continue to learn. But........as much as I hate to say it........he is a master marketer. He espouses low doses regarding the various drug protocols but each one of his recommendations includes specific OTC supps that only he sells the real version of, that aren't exactly inexpensive. If you go back and read the majority of his posts, sooner rather than later, it leads to these recommendations.

Thank you for your nice comments. It`s very important to include substances that can improve the body`s overall nonspecific resistance, which will enable it to respond more steadily to resistance, and to support the adrenal cortex function, which will help to respond more steadily to stress. This should include adaptogens, biostimulnts, nutritional supplement(vitamins, minerals, aminos etc.) with out causing any negative side effects.

 

[mister69]

I personally felt it was the most overrated ergo aid ever used. I think it works awesome for people who dont have the appetite to gain size...thats who ive seen it work best for. I didnt have that problem...I could always forcefeed myself to gain size. I used it during the 10 grams of carbs per IU period in the early 2000's (humalog/humalin R)....I personally felt the downsides to it by tenfold ruined the upside of it. The downside was abdominal distention like no other...so much so it ruined my abdominal wall....and I ended up with the turtle shell look with slight tears/linea alba totally gone...a diastasis recti situation. For people who cannot eat their way up in size, it feels like a gamechanger for them, ......but I would rather have kept my abdominal wall....and I regret ever using it (especially the method everyone was using/trying back then)...full as hell, incredible pumps, but distention like no tommorow

Dante: do you think more am fasted cardio would have been a better route for appetite ?

 

[gotgame]

I believe you saw what you saw, brother...I'm not disputing that. At the same time I still stand by what I said in my prior post, but that doesn't mean there has to be conflict between what I said and what you said. There are so many variables at play here that there isn't a single diagnosis for everyone...and when we add in the differences between off-season and contest ready bodybuilders (which brings with it a whole new set of variables), it turns into a pretty complex subject.

This is why it irks me when some people say that "distension is caused by this or that", while basically denying (or ignoring) every other potential contributing factor. It's like they are looking for a single thing to blame, instead of realizing that there is no single thing, and that we aren't all affected in exactly the same way or to the same degree by every potential factor.

On another note, I do find it odd that the bodybuilders you were seeing did not have much food in their digestive tracts, as most larger bodybuilders eat so much food that their stomach is much larger at the end of the day than it was at the start of the day. Of course, not everyone is affected the same way by their diet.

Most were getting scanned due to being in the ER for a variety of reasons or outpatient imaging for lumbar issues. Not to say they didnt have some food but when you have someone who is just completely backed up full of food you see the loops of bowel being all huge and distended and copious amount of stool in the colon etc. It wasnt really more then normal and there was a lot of separation of the bowel loops with fat.

Maybe they are a lot more distended day to day but from not feeling well or long pre-scan wait times as an outpatient they had less food.. who knows.

No conflict between us sir and i have much respect for you and others. I am simply trying to clarify something that there seems to be confusion on. Id hate to be on here 10 years from now and ppl still talking about intestinal growth etc, instead id rather the community focus on saying we have this issue where the abdominal wall becomes stretched and there an accumulation of visceral fat in bodybuilders despite low levels of subq...so what can we do to prevent and treat this. How this came to be is likely multifactorial but the end result is as described.

 

[Cinder]

Here's the thread I am referencing above.

Metformin article. Seems it is terrible for muscle. - Professional Muscle

What were ur dosages like for this long period and we're u on with skin as well

 

[concreteguy]

Emeric, are you sure its not 10iu? 1iu will do absolutely nothing, and e3d? Makes no sense at all. What type of insulin are they using? Even if it was long acting, like Lantus, you'd still need a much higher dose. They might be breaking records but that doesn't mean it's from the slin. The protocol basskiller laid out at his site years ago, believe it's called mutants protocol or something, is spot on in my opinion. Slin and gh pre, with lr3 post. They had it right, and all the new data still points in that direction. We are trying to maximize muscle mass, that's why around training is perfect timing in my opinion.

OJ and slin 3-4x a day, sure will put on mass but not good mass for a guy like me. I don't even drink juices with all that sugar. Why use juice sugars when you can use a quality carb? This is exactly what Dave is complaining about lol guys just taking slin to put mass on, any mass....

"quality carbs"????????? OK, so your one of those guys that's got it all figured out on paper. lol Good luck with that!

CG

 

[RamboStallone]

What were ur dosages like for this long period and we're u on with skin as well

Look at post 33.

 

[RamboStallone]

[/B]

"quality carbs"????????? OK, so your one of those guys that's got it all figured out on paper. lol Good luck with that!

CG

No paper, this is what I am doing.

Right now at this moment I'm doing this as far as slin goes,

250mcgs ghrp2 and 5iu humalog, then I make my shake of 1 cup milk, 1/2 cup oats, a banana, 30g whey isolate, 1-2g taurine, and 1 large whole egg. I drink that, then head to the gym. Don't go hypo but I work up an insane sweat. My strength kept climbing and I put back on the 10lbs I had lost when I went MIA from this sport for a month cuz of some life situations. I was using 30mgs prop and 30mgs tren ace daily with this up until this week where I started the T400 I got from your former employer buddy. I'm using 500mg metformin twice a day as well, AM and evening after postworkout meal. This is working well for me right now, which is why I am sharing it. It's simple and effective. The main thing is, this protocol is keeping me slin sensitive I feel.

I just checked and my bloodwork results are in. Fasted glucose of 85. I've had it as high as 95 in the past.

 

[SoFocused]

[/B]

"quality carbs"????????? OK, so your one of those guys that's got it all figured out on paper. lol Good luck with that!

CG

I'd like to use your method, can you please just go more into specifics? What times of the day do you take 20iu slin, glutamine and oj? Also how long do you run the protocol? Thanks. I like the keep it simple approach

 

[concreteguy]

No paper, this is what I am doing.

Right now at this moment I'm doing this as far as slin goes,

250mcgs ghrp2 and 5iu humalog, then I make my shake of 1 cup milk, 1/2 cup oats, a banana, 30g whey isolate, 1-2g taurine, and 1 large whole egg. I drink that, then head to the gym. Don't go hypo but I work up an insane sweat. My strength kept climbing and I put back on the 10lbs I had lost when I went MIA from this sport for a month cuz of some life situations. I was using 30mgs prop and 30mgs tren ace daily with this up until this week where I started the T400 I got from your former employer buddy. I'm using 500mg metformin twice a day as well, AM and evening after postworkout meal. This is working well for me right now, which is why I am sharing it. It's simple and effective. The main thing is, this protocol is keeping me slin sensitive I feel.

I just checked and my bloodwork results are in. Fasted glucose of 85. I've had it as high as 95 in the past.

Half the stuff in your shake wont be in your blood buy the time the slin is in and out. ALL slin does is drive sugars with what ever else you can piggy back with it. Your shake has fats in it. If you use slin as a tool. The glutamine and OJ is all you need. I'm sure you have read about juices and orals right. Pure sucrose and if I were you I would do a little reading on glutamine. 5 iu is spitting in an ocean. Your so big on cranking up the gear. Well crank up something that will actually pound flesh onto you if done correctly.

BTW: I'm just telling you what I've been told buy big boys in the game.
But I would also do it with IGF-LR3 and HGH. Maybe some T-3 if ya start getting soft learning how to do it correctly.

CG

 

[dnab87]

Would there be a significant difference in using 8iu homolog pre and 8iu post vs 16u pre workout?

Wouldn't it be more ideal to shuttle nutrients why you're breaking down muscles and pushing nutrients at the same time. Then post workout continue with another moderate dose?

 

[RamboStallone]

Half the stuff in your shake wont be in your blood buy the time the slin is in and out. ALL slin does is drive sugars with what ever else you can piggy back with it. Your shake has fats in it. If you use slin as a tool. The glutamine and OJ is all you need. I'm sure you have read about juices and orals right. Pure sucrose and if I were you I would do a little reading on glutamine. 5 iu is spitting in an ocean. Your so big on cranking up the gear. Well crank up something that will actually pound flesh onto you if done correctly.

BTW: I'm just telling you what I've been told buy big boys in the game.
But I would also do it with IGF-LR3 and HGH. Maybe some T-3 if ya start getting soft learning how to do it correctly.

CG

CG, I underatand what you're saying. Glutamine works like glucose with slin, I know this. But you are missing my point brother. I'm using it for enhanced recovery, increases in igf/mgf, etc. I train in the evenings so I have had plenty food prior as well. Firstly, I'm using it for anti-catabolic effects aka shuttle nutrients and protect the cells from breakdown by supporting them. Secondly, after mechanical loading (training) the anabolic portion kicks in, enhanced igf and mgf production to accelerate muscle growth. Then I have a large meal. It actually warrants a second dose of log postworkout, humilin-r probably would work better for what I am specifically using it for but I chose log cuz I train late evening and don't want the -r in me later and when I am taking my metformin. I may go back to -r since it's readily available for me anyway.

My reasons for doing this is to increase my strength, by protecting the muscle cells and acceleration of repair I am able to push more and more weight weekly. This is my goal. PRs every week! [emoji4]

Thanks for sharing what you have. It just doesn't fit my current purpose brother. I hear you loud and clear buddy.

 

[RamboStallone]

Would there be a significant difference in using 8iu homolog pre and 8iu post vs 16u pre workout?

Wouldn't it be more ideal to shuttle nutrients why you're breaking down muscles and pushing nutrients at the same time. Then post workout continue with another moderate dose?

I think it would, read my post above to CG. The 8iu pre for the anti-catabolic mechanism. The 8iu post for the anabolic mechanism.

Check this out, my good friend BigTex just laid this out Coincidentally in another thread that is going on about gh and slin. He's trying it as we speak.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134972

 

[SoFocused]

I'd like to use your method, can you please just go more into specifics? What times of the day do you take 20iu slin, glutamine and oj? Also how long do you run the protocol? Thanks. I like the keep it simple approach

?????????

 

[Mike Arnold]

The purpose of 1-1.5 is to restore faster the nitrogen and glycogen levels between the 2 training sections, so you can train hard as you did at you first training. I did workout 2 times per day for many years with out insulin, but my training was only 45 minutes x 2 day, not 3 hours x 2 day like the Olympic weight lifters or track and field athletes (Victor Conte) . I have a totally different point of view regarding bodybuilding, but I do respect others opinions also.

Emeric, even though the days when bodybuilding was about health came before my time, I have often wished we would return to the pre-1960's era of bodybuilding--when bodybuilding drugs were not yet part of the landscape and there was still a certain amount of mystery to the sport.

However, I am also fascinated with PED's...and I realize today's version of bodybuilding is much different than it was decades ago. I understand that much of your approach to PED's is health-based...and I completely respect that. In fact, when taking into consideration the bigger picture, I think it is the BETTER approach for the VAST majority of bodybuilders...because no amount of bodybuilding fame or trophies can make up for an early death (assuming an early death comes).

Now, there is a small percentage of bodybuilders who live their entire lives with bodybuilding as their #1 priority, but most guys will change their priorities as they age and start to place health above strength and size. This is a natural change that occurs when we become husbands and fathers...because we start to realize that not only our those two positions of much greater importance, but they also comprise a much larger portion of our life. Having to leave our wife and children 20-30 years premature because we chose to abuse our body for the sake of muscles is something that all of us would regret if placed in that position.

Still, being that people are going to use drugs, they want to know what manner of use is going to provide the best results....and that is the perspective I am coming from...results. From a purely bodybuilding standpoint, 1-1.5 iu every 3rd day just can't compare to today's more advanced protocols. And truth be told, one can easily use much larger dosages than that without damaging their health. Even when using 15 iu pre-training (a moderate dose by most people's standards), the majority, if not all of its negative effects on health can be eliminated (or counteracted) by taking the appropriate insulin sensitizing measures.

Anyway, I appreciate all your posts and the emphasis you place on health maintenance. It is a message that many people still need to hear.

 

[RamboStallone]

Emeric, even though the days when bodybuilding was about health came before my time, I have often wished we would return to the pre-1960's era of bodybuilding--when bodybuilding drugs were not yet part of the landscape and there was still a certain amount of mystery to the sport.

However, I am also fascinated with PED's...and I realize today's version of bodybuilding is much different than it was decades ago. I understand that much of your approach to PED's is health-based...and I completely respect that. In fact, when taking into consideration the bigger picture, I think it is the BETTER approach for the VAST majority of bodybuilders...because no amount of bodybuilding fame or trophies can make up for an early death (assuming an early death comes).

Now, there is a small percentage of bodybuilders who live their entire lives with bodybuilding as their #1 priority, but most guys will change their priorities as they age and start to place health above strength and size. This is a natural change that occurs when we become husbands and fathers...because we start to realize that not only our those two positions of much greater importance, but they also comprise a much larger portion of our life. Having to leave our wife and children 20-30 years premature because we chose to abuse our body for the sake of muscles is something that all of us would regret if placed in that position.

Still, being that people are going to use drugs, they want to know what manner of use is going to provide the best results....and that is the perspective I am coming from...results. From a purely bodybuilding standpoint, 1-1.5 iu every 3rd day just can't compare to today's more advanced protocols. And truth be told, one can easily use much larger dosages than that without damaging their health. Even when using 15 iu pre-training (a moderate dose by most people's standards), the majority, if not all of its negative effects on health can be eliminated (or counteracted) by taking the appropriate insulin sensitizing measures.

Anyway, I appreciate all your posts and the emphasis you place on health maintenance. It is a message that many people still need to hear.

Mike, on PED radio and in past conversation you were an advocate of moderate slin use preworkout. You said it could be used long term with proper measures of course. Have your thoughts changed?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike, on PED radio and in past conversation you were an advocate of moderate slin use preworkout. You said it could be used long term with proper measures of course. Have your thoughts changed?

Nope.

Now, that's not saying I never recommend anything else, but as far as being able to use pre-workout (only) insulin long-term without any significant health consequences...yes, I still believe that...because it's true. 15 iu is not that much when used say, 4X per week. By taking the proper countermeasures, we can reduce the body's need for endogenous insulin output by at least 15 iu daily...easy, thereby completely negating the negative effects of pre-workout only use.

You might be thinking "what's the point of adding exo. insulin if we are just going to decrease endogenous production by an equivalent amount?" First off, decreasing production doesn't necessarily mean reduced effectiveness. Think about it. Every time we increase our insulin sensitivity, regardless of how we do it, all we are really doing is helping the body to use insulin more efficiently. This means the body doesn't need to produce as much anymore in order to properly regulate blood sugar (and provide its other effects).

For example, if the body used to require 10 iu of insulin in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels , but it now needs only 7 iu to do the same job (because of increased insulin sensitivity), it will still be getting the same benefits from 7 iu as it used to get from 10 iu. This all comes down to efficiency. One could compare differences in insulin sensitivity to variances in motor vehicle gas mileage. One car might require only 1 gallon of gas in order to travel 40 miles, while another may need 2 gallons to go that same distance. Even though both cars ended up traveling the same distance, one of them needed only half as much gas as the other. This is because it had superior gasoline efficiency, which allowed it to do the same job with half as much gas.

So it is with insulin. The body needs whatever it needs in order to maintain blood glucose level in a normal range, which varies from person to person depending on their level of insulin sensitivity. But by making the body's glucose transportation device more efficient, we don't need as much of it in order to travel the same distance (i.e. nutrient transport, IGF-1 elevation, anti-catabolism, etc).

In addition to benefiting more from less, increased insulin sensitivity also means less inflammation, increased lipolysis, etc.

It also means we will receive even greater benefit from our pre-workout insulin, as the body will be using each iu more efficiently, making the same 15 iu dose more like 20 iu (or more) in terms of results.


Therefore, everyone's goals should be to increase insulin sensitivity as much as possible.

 

[RamboStallone]

Nope.

Now, that's not saying I never recommend anything else, but as far as being able to use pre-workout (only) insulin long-term without any significant health consequences...yes, I still believe that...because it's true. 15 iu is not that much when used say, 4X per week. By taking the proper countermeasures, we can reduce the body's need for endogenous insulin output by at least 15 iu daily...easy, thereby completely negating the negative effects of pre-workout only use.

You might be thinking "what's the point of adding exo. insulin if we are just going to decrease endogenous production by an equivalent amount?" First off, decreasing production doesn't necessarily mean reduced effectiveness. Think about it. Every time we increase our insulin sensitivity, regardless of how we do it, all we are really doing is helping the body to use insulin more efficiently. This means the body doesn't need to produce as much anymore in order to properly regulate blood sugar (and provide its other effects).

For example, if the body used to require 10 iu of insulin in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels , but it now needs only 7 iu to do the same job (because of increased insulin sensitivity), it will still be getting the same benefits from 7 iu as it used to get from 10 iu. This all comes down to efficiency. One could compare differences in insulin sensitivity to variances in motor vehicle gas mileage. One car might require only 1 gallon of gas in order to travel 40 miles, while another may need 2 gallons to go that same distance. Even though both cars ended up traveling the same distance, one of them needed only half as much gas as the other. This is because it had superior gasoline efficiency, which allowed it to do the same job with half as much gas.

So it is with insulin. The body needs whatever it needs in order to maintain blood glucose level in a normal range, which varies from person to person depending on their level of insulin sensitivity. But by making the body's glucose transportation device more efficient, we don't need as much of it in order to travel the same distance (i.e. nutrient transport, IGF-1 elevation, anti-catabolism, etc).

In addition to benefiting more from less, increased insulin sensitivity also means less inflammation, increased lipolysis, etc.

It also means we will receive even greater benefit from our pre-workout insulin, as the body will be using each iu more efficiently, making the same 15 iu dose more like 20 iu (or more) in terms of results.


Therefore, everyone's goals should be to increase insulin sensitivity as much as possible.

Thank you. I agree 100%. This is why I stressed slin sensitivity from the start.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Emeric, even though the days when bodybuilding was about health came before my time, I have often wished we would return to the pre-1960's era of bodybuilding--when bodybuilding drugs were not yet part of the landscape and there was still a certain amount of mystery to the sport.

However, I am also fascinated with PED's...and I realize today's version of bodybuilding is much different than it was decades ago. I understand that much of your approach to PED's is health-based...and I completely respect that. In fact, when taking into consideration the bigger picture, I think it is the BETTER approach for the VAST majority of bodybuilders...because no amount of bodybuilding fame or trophies can make up for an early death (assuming an early death comes).

Now, there is a small percentage of bodybuilders who live their entire lives with bodybuilding as their #1 priority, but most guys will change their priorities as they age and start to place health above strength and size. This is a natural change that occurs when we become husbands and fathers...because we start to realize that not only our those two positions of much greater importance, but they also comprise a much larger portion of our life. Having to leave our wife and children 20-30 years premature because we chose to abuse our body for the sake of muscles is something that all of us would regret if placed in that position.

Still, being that people are going to use drugs, they want to know what manner of use is going to provide the best results....and that is the perspective I am coming from...results. From a purely bodybuilding standpoint, 1-1.5 iu every 3rd day just can't compare to today's more advanced protocols. And truth be told, one can easily use much larger dosages than that without damaging their health. Even when using 15 iu pre-training (a moderate dose by most people's standards), the majority, if not all of its negative effects on health can be eliminated (or counteracted) by taking the appropriate insulin sensitizing measures.

Anyway, I appreciate all your posts and the emphasis you place on health maintenance. It is a message that many people still need to hear.

Thank you.

 

[powerof2]

Nope.



Now, that's not saying I never recommend anything else, but as far as being able to use pre-workout (only) insulin long-term without any significant health consequences...yes, I still believe that...because it's true. 15 iu is not that much when used say, 4X per week. By taking the proper countermeasures, we can reduce the body's need for endogenous insulin output by at least 15 iu daily...easy, thereby completely negating the negative effects of pre-workout only use.



You might be thinking "what's the point of adding exo. insulin if we are just going to decrease endogenous production by an equivalent amount?" First off, decreasing production doesn't necessarily mean reduced effectiveness. Think about it. Every time we increase our insulin sensitivity, regardless of how we do it, all we are really doing is helping the body to use insulin more efficiently. This means the body doesn't need to produce as much anymore in order to properly regulate blood sugar (and provide its other effects).



For example, if the body used to require 10 iu of insulin in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels , but it now needs only 7 iu to do the same job (because of increased insulin sensitivity), it will still be getting the same benefits from 7 iu as it used to get from 10 iu. This all comes down to efficiency. One could compare differences in insulin sensitivity to variances in motor vehicle gas mileage. One car might require only 1 gallon of gas in order to travel 40 miles, while another may need 2 gallons to go that same distance. Even though both cars ended up traveling the same distance, one of them needed only half as much gas as the other. This is because it had superior gasoline efficiency, which allowed it to do the same job with half as much gas.



So it is with insulin. The body needs whatever it needs in order to maintain blood glucose level in a normal range, which varies from person to person depending on their level of insulin sensitivity. But by making the body's glucose transportation device more efficient, we don't need as much of it in order to travel the same distance (i.e. nutrient transport, IGF-1 elevation, anti-catabolism, etc).



In addition to benefiting more from less, increased insulin sensitivity also means less inflammation, increased lipolysis, etc.



It also means we will receive even greater benefit from our pre-workout insulin, as the body will be using each iu more efficiently, making the same 15 iu dose more like 20 iu (or more) in terms of results.





Therefore, everyone's goals should be to increase insulin sensitivity as much as possible.

Man I love how u simplify things for us! Thanks brother!!


110% or expect to regret it!