Dave tate table talk with Justin Harris

[fisther69]

I’ll really listen to any interview Dave Tate does..likely one of the most respectable guys in the industry

 

[Flex500]

yeah...this one was great. Notice how much he talks about sarcoplasmic hypertophy vs myofibrillar hypertophy? Justin is the one years back that made me think down this rabbit hole as he has some similar beliefs as myself...a lot of people getting cock diesel but not actually building any muscle.

Then when you start looking at NCBI etc. you find all kinds of studies showing that basically if you are an accustomed lifter (meaning you are routinely working out...usually 2+ times per week, but for sure those doing 4+) you are basically getting all your growth from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/

Study after study after study on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy that really opens the eyes. Now at the end of the day you can look huge with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (there will always be some, I'm not saying it's 100% binary) but drop the carbs, drop the drugs, drop the training, and many end up looking like "average joe" in 12-16 weeks.

You CAN get around this, but it's hard and, IMO, the research is pretty clear you have to find ways to continue to cause actual muscle damage.

 

[weedle]

yeah...this one was great. Notice how much he talks about sarcoplasmic hypertophy vs myofibrillar hypertophy? Justin is the one years back that made me think down this rabbit hole as he has some similar beliefs as myself...a lot of people getting cock diesel but not actually building any muscle.

Then when you start looking at NCBI etc. you find all kinds of studies showing that basically if you are an accustomed lifter (meaning you are routinely working out...usually 2+ times per week, but for sure those doing 4+) you are basically getting all your growth from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/

Study after study after study on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy that really opens the eyes. Now at the end of the day you can look huge with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (there will always be some, I'm not saying it's 100% binary) but drop the carbs, drop the drugs, drop the training, and many end up looking like "average joe" in 12-16 weeks.

You CAN get around this, but it's hard and, IMO, the research is pretty clear you have to find ways to continue to cause actual muscle damage.

Muscle damage doesn’t cause hypertrophy.

 

[Flex500]

Muscle damage doesn’t cause hypertrophy.

It is not needed at all, nor is protein for the kind of hypertrophy everyone here is after; sarcoplasmic. In fact, people here make it way too hard. Take drugs, eat potatoes, get a pump...and you will turn into a sarcoplasmic freak of nature.

Either way, you are technically correct even for myofibrillar. The repair and remodel causes hypertrophy the damage is the catalyst and I'm specifically referring to myofibrillar hypertrophy. But there are plenty of newer studies that show how and why hypertrophy occurs and that also support the fact that the damage --> remodel cycle is what will build actual myofibrillar hypertrophy. I have little/no interest in exacerbating sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which you are 100% correct you don't need damage OR even protein to to drive...but I'm not interested in that at all.

Resistance training‐induced changes in integrated myofibrillar protein synthesis are related to hypertrophy only after attenuation of muscle damage - PMC

Skeletal muscle hypertrophy is one of the main outcomes from resistance training (RT), but how it is modulated throughout training is still unknown. We show that changes in myofibrillar protein synthesis (MyoPS) after an initial resistance exercise ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pathophysiology of Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage and Its Structural, Functional, Metabolic, and Clinical Consequences - PMC

Extreme or unaccustomed eccentric exercise can cause exercise-induced muscle damage, characterized by structural changes involving sarcomere, cytoskeletal, and membrane damage, with an increased permeability of sarcolemma for proteins. From a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy in Skeletal Muscle: A Scientific “Unicorn” or Resistance Training Adaptation? - PMC

Skeletal muscle fibers are multinucleated cells that contain mostly myofibrils suspended in an aqueous media termed the sarcoplasm. Select evidence suggests sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, or a disproportionate expansion of the sarcoplasm relative to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Muscle fiber hypertrophy in response to 6 weeks of high-volume resistance training in trained young men is largely attributed to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - PMC

Cellular adaptations that occur during skeletal muscle hypertrophy in response to high-volume resistance training are not well-characterized. Therefore, we sought to explore how actin, myosin, sarcoplasmic protein, mitochondrial, and glycogen ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[KingOfSushi]

We will have to wait and see what it amounts to when someone cracks the code for body composition improvements while eating trash on GLPs.

Would the obvious answer just not be pairing it with a steroid? Though I don’t feel like that’s cracking any special code. It’s just controlling appetite while taking steroids.

When getting really lean, in my experience (so this may just be personal) the hardest part isn’t the appetite but the energy and fatigue.

 

[totalrecomp]

I don't think the human body will be able to "make tissue out of thin air" lol. Things I could see happening:

-Advancement in diagnostic testing. Something where you prick your finger and you can instantly see things going on in your body (test levels, lipids, cortisol, estrogen, prolactin, cancer, anything you can imagine really). Imagine being able to get all the information we get from current bloodwork (and more) any time you want, without going to the doctor. This would be huge for bodybuilders.

-Stem cells. Obviously stem cell treatments exist already. But we're kind of where we used to be with HGH. You have to fly to Brazil and pay $19,000 or whatever to get the most effective treatments. That technology will advance, become cheaper and more accessible in the next 30 years.

-Manipulation of the brain to stop the body from storing fat. I think we're more likely to see advancements in fat loss than muscle gain because the general population is more concerned with not being fat, but bodybuilders will still benefit. Imagine how much easier contest prep would be if you physically can't store fat.

- Synthetic meat. Theoretically the synthetic meat that's coming could be more easily digested and/or more optimal for muscle protein synthesis. I gotta admit, I'm not too excited about this one lol. I can easily see a future where "real meat" is considered an extravagant luxury and most meat is bio-engineered

Please explain to me HOW any of that would help someone who is currently unable to "get big" using dirt cheap test and GH???? What "PROBLEM" is that shit solving that currently exists and is the road block for most getting huge?

Will the above help bodybuilders? It certainly could but it's not taking last place at the Mr. Wisconsin to the O stage. All those new advantages will be available to the top 1% genetics wise as well, so still going to be the cream rising to the top.

 

[KingOfSushi]

yeah...this one was great. Notice how much he talks about sarcoplasmic hypertophy vs myofibrillar hypertophy? Justin is the one years back that made me think down this rabbit hole as he has some similar beliefs as myself...a lot of people getting cock diesel but not actually building any muscle.

Then when you start looking at NCBI etc. you find all kinds of studies showing that basically if you are an accustomed lifter (meaning you are routinely working out...usually 2+ times per week, but for sure those doing 4+) you are basically getting all your growth from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/

Study after study after study on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy that really opens the eyes. Now at the end of the day you can look huge with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (there will always be some, I'm not saying it's 100% binary) but drop the carbs, drop the drugs, drop the training, and many end up looking like "average joe" in 12-16 weeks.

You CAN get around this, but it's hard and, IMO, the research is pretty clear you have to find ways to continue to cause actual muscle damage.

This is a topic I am not well versed in. So you are saying sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is not permanent and myofibrillar is? How does one achieve one but not the other? This are just honest questions, not be questioning the authenticity. This is really not something I’ve investigated or looked into.

 

[totalrecomp]

I’m not sure if this is what you’re trying to say because I can’t tell, but I just want to say there are plenty of great sources on this board like @theprovider or @DIRECT @SOUR DIESEL that DO provide quality gear and GH at prices better than that…

We live in lucky times as far as PED prices

My point was with incredibly reasonable and in some cases dirt cheap drug prices, which translates into the guy working at walmart is no longer limited by budget when it comes to total mg/iu intake we still have 95% getting no where.

I was just taking VERY rough estimates as I know some are below those and some are above and the average guy is likely not here anyways, they are getting marked up stuff from "their guy" at the gym lol.

 

[control]

Will the above help bodybuilders? It certainly could

That's literally all I'm saying, lol. The conversation is whether or not there will be significant advancements in the next 30 years that impact bodybuilding. I think there will be.

 

[RandomMachine]

Would the obvious answer just not be pairing it with a steroid? Though I don’t feel like that’s cracking any special code. It’s just controlling appetite while taking steroids.

When getting really lean, in my experience (so this may just be personal) the hardest part isn’t the appetite but the energy and fatigue.

I suppose, but the conversation is in regards to new things that could benefit bodybuilding. Pretty safe to say new anabolic steroids won't be the answer.

If something comes along that moves bodybuilding forward it will be exploiting a different pathway.

https://bioagelabs.com/azelaprag
This one comes to mind, but there are a ton of others in the pipeline. Mostly trying to pair them with GLPs.

 

[qbkilla]

Would the obvious answer just not be pairing it with a steroid? Though I don’t feel like that’s cracking any special code. It’s just controlling appetite while taking steroids.

When getting really lean, in my experience (so this may just be personal) the hardest part isn’t the appetite but the energy and fatigue.

Agree with this 100 percent. I'd imagine it would be even worse for the semaglutide fiends. Imagine a bodybuilder eating a balanced wholesome diet but fatigued as hell due to only getting 2200 calories and having an extremely low bf. Now imagine Joe semaglutide taking it and just slamming Twinkies until he feels sick and has to stop. I'd imagine the fatigue would be even worse. Also consider it's not teaching anyone discipline, proper dieting, the value of micronutrients, or making them get off the couch, just a crutch they can be lean but continue to eat garbage.

 

[RandomMachine]

Agree with this 100 percent. I'd imagine it would be even worse for the semaglutide fiends. Imagine a bodybuilder eating a balanced wholesome diet but fatigued as hell due to only getting 2200 calories and having an extremely low bf. Now imagine Joe semaglutide taking it and just slamming Twinkies until he feels sick and has to stop. I'd imagine the fatigue would be even worse. Also consider it's not teaching anyone discipline, proper dieting, the value of micronutrients, or making them get off the couch, just a crutch they can be lean but continue to eat garbage.

While I don't disagree with you. A portion of this podcast is talking about what/if any advances have happened to propel bodybuilding forward since the late 90s/ early 2000s.

Then this thread has people speculating on that subject.

So my reply is regarding that. Not people using steroids with GLPs or having fatigue eating Twinkies. I know how easy it is to get off topic on something.

I only replied to specifiy that at this time considerable research and money are being sunk into new compounds utilizing different pathways specifically related to muscle retention or building.

So if someone cracks that specific problem we may see changes that bleed over to bodybuilding in some way.

 

[KingOfSushi]

I only replied to specifiy that at this time considerable research and money are being sunk into new compounds utilizing different pathways specifically related to muscle retention or building.

So if someone cracks that specific problem we may see changes that bleed over to bodybuilding in some way.

You missed my point. What is there to crack? We have AAS and GH. Why would we need a new compound?

My point is that for bodybuilders the limiting factor of getting to stage condition isn’t typically appetite or muscle retention… it’s being able to keep pushing physically and mentally when already very lean. The best bodybuilders already couldn’t give is a shit if they’re hungry in prep, so I don’t see how just suppressing their appetite would build any better physiques.

 

[RandomMachine]

You missed my point. What is there to crack? We have AAS and GH. Why would we need a new compound?

My point is that for bodybuilders the limiting factor of getting to stage condition isn’t typically appetite or muscle retention… it’s being able to keep pushing physically and mentally when already very lean.

I got your point, its logical and I can agree with you on what you said.

Then I explained why it doesn't really apply to the subject of the podcast.

You could have asked the same question before you had GH. Then as mentioned in the podcast... To directly answer your question...insulin was the next leap after AAS and GH.

So in spirit of that conversation specifically and the question of "what could lead to the next leap forward in bodybuilding", I brought up the things I did.

Again, it's not that I think what you're saying is wrong. I'm just speaking on a specific question covered in the podcast with my opinion on what is currently in the works that could bleed over to bodybuilding.