David Segui Speaks Out Against Hypocrisy of MLB Steroid Rules

[Beti ona]

Well, the info is now out and how many guys have avoided football and left the pros altogether? A handful at best. Also, we have known forever that blows to the head are cumulative as it has been observed in boxers going back 100 plus years. They did not call it CTE at the time but we have known this for longer than any of us have been alive. This in a way reminds me of the people who assumed smoking was safe prior to the "hidden research" finally coming out of tobacco company hiding, lol. So people assumed breathing smoke in all day was no big deal, despite this being what kills the vast majority of those caught in fires????

The whole we had no idea they hid it from us is BS IMO. The overwhelming number of guys who played football are fine and the risks taken are well worth the payoff IMO. Many people risk far more for far less reward, the military, police, and fireman come to mind.

That is not the issue, it does not matter if the players now want to play or not, it does not matter if they win millions of dollars, it matters that now they do it knowing the consequences and having the scientific information in their hands.

It is the same for any drug use, you are free to use, but you would like to have the widest possible information about what you are taking, side effects, benefits...

When you eat, you don't eat anything at random, you analyze what you eat, macros, calories, etc ..., you don't eat something that you don't know it is.

 

[qbkilla]

Every monetary society is based on exploiting each other, it is the history of the civilization of man.

When you hide information you are a criminal, either as the owner of the NFL or as a seller of tobacco to the crowd.

Science and its discoveries must be available to everyone, otherwise, we cannot talk about a free society, and then, people can freely choose if they want to take risks; whether for money, survival, honor, fame, for pleasure, etc....

Hiding information is not criminal why do you think it is? What law or statute makes it criminal?

And you do not have a right to information, no one owes you information. You have a right to defend yourself, a right for the government not to censor your speech but no one owes you information.

You want to violate others rights. If you ask me my name or how old I am I can ignore you or lie to you, I have zero obligation legally or morally to provide you with information.

This is basic stuff.

 

[maldorf]

Ive had 3 concussions bad enough that I got knocked out and lost several hours of memory each time, and Im still normal! :headbang:

Guys coming back and saying they were victimized by the NFL is a load of shit IMO. It is common sense that repeated blows to the head are damaging. It has been well known for years that boxers suffer permanent damage. I would say going back into the 60s we have known that. It isn't a stretch to understand that the damage in football is similar, but may take a bit longer to accumulate.

 

[Beti ona]

Of course not disagreeing. But there have to be lines on what is allowed and what is considered cheating. You can use protein powder, you can use vitamins, you can use your money to hire the best coaches, trainers, massage therapists to recover, you are paid well enough to hire the best doctors and surgeons.

You cant use test, deca, tren, cork your bat (baseball), put weights in your gloves (NFL lineman, boxers) , spy on your opponents practices (Patriots) etc

These are the rules agreed to by the owners and players representatives and typically supported by public opinion. If nfl players wanted to use test and deca as much as gym bros claim they do, then they would nominate a player rep that would hold off on the cba until the owners agreed to eliminate drug testing.

Obviously players aren't as worried about it as some forum guys. Players are more worried about being allowed to smoke pot and want guaranteed contracts. I believe guys on forums who get so butthurt when someone is against aas in sports dont actually care about the millionaire players well being they just want society to accept aas usage as normal. At the end of the day I personally dont care how society views aas I use regardless and I dont go around telling anyone I use because it's not their business and doesn't benefit me.

https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/handle/10822/955917

 

[Beti ona]

Hiding information is not criminal why do you think it is? What law or statute makes it criminal?

And you do not have a right to information, no one owes you information. You have a right to defend yourself, a right for the government not to censor your speech but no one owes you information.

You want to violate others rights. If you ask me my name or how old I am I can ignore you or lie to you, I have zero obligation legally or morally to provide you with information.

This is basic stuff.

You don't seem to be good at using logic.

The original point was that steroids, being dangerous, should be banned. Me and others, we have shown that there are inherent risks in many sports, and that health is not a priority in the pro sports.

The logic is as follows: if something dangerous (steroids) should be banned, then, other sports/activities that are dangerous for athletes, should be banned.

If steroid shuld be banned by a strange moral problem, then we should have another discussion. And for this, I recommend reading the link provided in the previous post.

 

[maldorf]

How about the health of the athlete and the health of the fans that aspire to be like them? Does none of that matter? Is it just about being the best athlete you can be, no matter the cost and don't worry about the fans?

 

[Beti ona]

Hiding information is not criminal why do you think it is? What law or statute makes it criminal?

The moral compass is very different in the US from Europe. That is why in the US you can buy whey protein and receive flour, while in Europe you receive what you buy and what put on the label.

Obviously, if a company sells something that is not true, it would be considered a mafia/criminal activity.

That is why tobacco companies are required to report the danger of smoking. I think that even in the US, packs must come with this warning.

 

[Beti ona]

How about the health of the athlete and the health of the fans that aspire to be like them? Does none of that matter? Is it just about being the best athlete you can be, no matter the cost and don't worry about the fans?

Sometimes I am surprised by the ingenuity of Americans about their society and the values in which they live.

Hey, your country was founded with a single mission: to make money, the more the better!

Everything else is secondary.

The athletes, the young people, are only participating in a sports industry, where the industry is asking them to put everything at risk, to do whatever it takes, in exchange for tons of money, fame, celebrity status...

 

[Mike Arnold]

Of course not disagreeing. But there have to be lines on what is allowed and what is considered cheating. You can use protein powder, you can use vitamins, you can use your money to hire the best coaches, trainers, massage therapists to recover, you are paid well enough to hire the best doctors and surgeons.

You cant use test, deca, tren, cork your bat (baseball), put weights in your gloves (NFL lineman, boxers) , spy on your opponents practices (Patriots) etc

These are the rules agreed to by the owners and players representatives and typically supported by public opinion. If nfl players wanted to use test and deca as much as gym bros claim they do, then they would nominate a player rep that would hold off on the cba until the owners agreed to eliminate drug testing.

Obviously players aren't as worried about it as some forum guys. Players are more worried about being allowed to smoke pot and want guaranteed contracts. I believe guys on forums who get so butthurt when someone is against aas in sports dont actually care about the millionaire players well being they just want society to accept aas usage as normal. At the end of the day I personally dont care how society views aas I use regardless and I dont go around telling anyone I use because it's not their business and doesn't benefit me.

...but they DO use AAS profusely, particularly the linemen. Your suggestion--that they would nominate a player rep top push for the allowance of AAS use of they really cared--is absurd and will never happen because of the perceived public outcry from the promoters, owners and other hypocrits. Besides, these people really don't want drug use eliminated from the league because performance would decrease and the fans would become dissatisfied. Rather, they simply act like it for the sake of public opinion. If they actually did want PEDs gone from the league, it would be an EASY transition to make...and we all know that money is not an issue. Everything is set-up the way it is to permit drug use in sports without having to endure any negative backlash. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Furthermore, the players have NO NEED to do what you suggested (e.g. nominate a rep) because the scheduled and infrequent testing ALREADY allows them to use AAS without flopping tests. Like I said previously, the testing is purposely set up this way so that AAS CAN be used in sports without the athletes having to worry about being maligned for using them.

AAS use is rampant in almost all sports, particularly those that rely on strength and/or size to improve performance, such as football...but football is by no means they only sport in which AAS is prolific. It is just more more widespread in the NFL than say, basketball.

 

[Mike Arnold]

How about the health of the athlete and the health of the fans that aspire to be like them? Does none of that matter? Is it just about being the best athlete you can be, no matter the cost and don't worry about the fans?

To that I would say, responsibility to the reposnibile. Each person has to decide for themselves, after weighing the risk and benefits, what is right for them. We have no obligation to spoonfeed others when the information is freely available to all.

 

[maldorf]

To that I would say, responsibility to the reposnibile. Each person has to decide for themselves, after weighing the risk and benefits, what is right for them. We have no obligation to spoonfeed others when the information is freely available to all.

True, but most people are very ignorant to the long term effects on anabolic steroids. Children are very influenced by athletes, and when they get old enough to realize that some are using PEDs then they too are going to consider usage. Children cannot legally make their own decisions such as that, like it or not. Usage in high schools across America is higher than ever now.Athletes using it because they want to get into a big college athletic program, etc. That was just about unheard of back in the 80s when I graduated. We didn't have athletes dropping dead in their 20s and 30s from heart attacks back then either.

 

[qbkilla]

You don't seem to be good at using logic.

The original point was that steroids, being dangerous, should be banned. Me and others, we have shown that there are inherent risks in many sports, and that health is not a priority in the pro sports.

The logic is as follows: if something dangerous (steroids) should be banned, then, other sports/activities that are dangerous for athletes, should be banned.

If steroid shuld be banned by a strange moral problem, then we should have another discussion. And for this, I recommend reading the link provided in the previous post.

No one said steroids should be banned because they are unhealthy. The argument is they are illegal and provide an advantage (cheating) so they are banned.

Football needs tackling to stay in business. Football doesn't need to allow steroids to stay in business. The NFL is a for profit business.

 

[maldorf]

No one said steroids should be banned because they are unhealthy. The argument is they are illegal and provide an advantage (cheating) so they are banned.

Football needs tackling to stay in business. Football doesn't need to allow steroids to stay in business. The NFL is a for profit business.

True. I don't really agree that much with the advantage part since so many use it anyways and I don't think the advantage is as big as they make it out to be. Its not like in bodybuilding where you have to do it to even compete.

I think they should be banned because they are unhealthy, and to me being banned because they see it as giving an unfair advantage to users is ok for me because it does something to discourage people from using it. Ill take what I can get even though I don't see it as that much of an advantage.

 

[Beti ona]

No one said steroids should be banned because they are unhealthy. The argument is they are illegal and provide an advantage (cheating) so they are banned.

Football needs tackling to stay in business. Football doesn't need to allow steroids to stay in business. The NFL is a for profit business.

Justice does not exist in competitive sports, steroids are just another factor within many factors, such as genetics, place/country of birth, culture, monetary capacity, etc ...

The NFL is obviously a business, and in their business, steroids help get more money for all companies-business men involved in the industry. Within the logic of capitalism, it is stupid to chase steroids, thats its the reason why the major leagues in the USA do not have agreements with the AMA-WADA. They prefer to have their own internal anti-drug rules, lol.

You know that the Pro League also has a section about drug test?

 

[Beti ona]

True, but most people are very ignorant to the long term effects on anabolic steroids.

This is a deeper issue: an anti-intellectual culture where what is reinforced are feelings about reason, heath or long-term achievements.

But also we know that young people, most of them, will never reason like adult men because they see themselves as invincible. Not only will they take hormones, they will also take many other risks such as driving at high speed, taking rec drugs, doing extreme sports, fuck without a condom. It is human nature.

Children are very influenced by athletes.

As I said, it is a problem of education and culture. The aspirational models stink, it's what it is, TV, MTV, social networks...

 

[qbkilla]

This is a deeper issue: an anti-intellectual culture where what is reinforced are feelings about reason, heath or long-term achievements.

But also we know that young people, most of them, will never reason like adult men because they see themselves as invincible. Not only will they take hormones, they will also take many other risks such as driving at high speed, taking rec drugs, doing extreme sports, fuck without a condom. It is human nature.



As I said, it is a problem of education and culture. The aspirational models stink, it's what it is, TV, MTV, social networks...

For once we agree.

 

[LK3]

True, but most people are very ignorant to the long term effects on anabolic steroids. Children are very influenced by athletes, and when they get old enough to realize that some are using PEDs then they too are going to consider usage. Children cannot legally make their own decisions such as that, like it or not. Usage in high schools across America is higher than ever now.Athletes using it because they want to get into a big college athletic program, etc. That was just about unheard of back in the 80s when I graduated. We didn't have athletes dropping dead in their 20s and 30s from heart attacks back then either.

i think what we see here on pm and in gyms and the more prevelance of high doses in ppl who lack experience is a result of the lies that are fostered by all of this hidining.

we here aas are overly bad, find out its not true and think they are totally safe then go stupid thinking they are the answer.

ppl think its just lies on top of lies on top of lies and while yes thats the case there is also some truth in the mix.

one can use aas for life "relatively" safely, we have some folks here who have worked hard to show that and kind of point others in the right directions.

that said there is also a time and place for all this info, a child of 5 or 10 years old needs to know nothing of whatever type of drug talk adults are having, what that child hears and is exposed to should be the responsabiity of the parent. ( i wont touch that subject for now.. )

so in theory if aas were ok we might have open talk on the tv bout it and maybe that hits the virgin ear wrong.

but thats why it should be up to us to set shit straight and make some new logical examples that dont reley on lies and i told you sos as some sort of adult fact based system, because adults are the ones getting hurt by the lies, physically or legally or professionally.

we as adults can do better if we work to make intelegent science and fact based rules or laws as we see result of what we have been doing, and that sure sucks, no? lol

 

[method2madness]

A line has to be drawn somewhere I like most people draw it at aas. What If you were competing for the usa in the Olympics in swimming, then got your ass handed to you by the Chinese. Then saw an article where they beat you because their scientists developed a wonder drug that increases their endurance by 200%. You wouldn't consider them cheaters and argue that you could have won on a level playing field?

The way I look at it. I use aas to look better. They are chemicals. I have no allegiance to them or others that use them. I was a sports fan before I used aas to enhance my physique.

Clarify your objection again. Are you against them because corrupt organizations like the International olympic committee are inconsistent at best with their enforcement of rules regarding any/all PED's not just anabolics? Are you against them because you think athletes who use them are cheating? Or is your issue that you think it's ok to use for some endeavors like maintaining a physique, but not for other pursuits like competing in sports? It's all or nothing brother, either they are ok for all who use them, regardless of the reason or they are not ok for anyone. You can't have your cake and eat it too Additionally, any PED that increases endurance by %200 as in your swimmers example is not an anabolic, it's most likely Erythropoietin, a substance whose sole purpose is to increase red blood cell count thereby increasing a muscles ability to maximize oxygenation of the blood to increase endurance of the lungs and skeletal muscle. Might I suggest that you study up a bit more on the substances you seem to have an issue with or at least more accurately represent what you're issue/issues are.

 

[qbkilla]

Clarify your objection again. Are you against them because corrupt organizations like the International olympic committee are inconsistent at best with their enforcement of rules regarding any/all PED's not just anabolics? Are you against them because you think athletes who use them are cheating? Or is your issue that you think it's ok to use for some endeavors like maintaining a physique, but not for other pursuits like competing in sports? It's all or nothing brother, either they are ok for all who use them, regardless of the reason or they are not ok for anyone. You can't have your cake and eat it too Additionally, any PED that increases endurance by %200 as in your swimmers example is not an anabolic, it's most likely Erythropoietin, a substance whose sole purpose is to increase red blood cell count thereby increasing a muscles ability to maximize oxygenation of the blood to increase endurance of the lungs and skeletal muscle. Might I suggest that you study up a bit more on the substances you seem to have an issue with or at least more accurately represent what you're issue/issues are.

I am against them as a sports fan because they are cheating and making the competition unfair, albeit a small bit. IN the end, genetics are king. Just as in bodybuilding. Many anabolic users look like complete shit, at high dosages, we all know this. And then there are naturals who look better than all of us (im talking elite genetics). But they should give everyone an advantage, so someone who is using them gets an unfair advantage as a sports fan.

As far as "having your cake and eat it too" that is a saying, nothing more than words. It has no actual practical application. If I speed to work 2 days out of the week because my alarm didn't go off on time, then I see on the news that someone killed 10 people driving 100mph, I will criticize him. If I took a piss outside in college drunk, then I take my kid for a walk and some bum is pissing on the sidewalk, I will ask him what the fuck he is doing.

You can label me a hypocrite for "wanting to have my cake and eating it too" but it's not going to make me doubt my own opinion or actions or feel stupid or guilty. We all have our cake and eat it too to some extent. Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree on some issue its not really something to be ashamed of unless someone has a life goal to be self-righteous which is not a quality put much value into.

 

[method2madness]

I am against them as a sports fan because they are cheating and making the competition unfair, albeit a small bit. IN the end, genetics are king. Just as in bodybuilding. Many anabolic users look like complete shit, at high dosages, we all know this. And then there are naturals who look better than all of us (im talking elite genetics). But they should give everyone an advantage, so someone who is using them gets an unfair advantage as a sports fan.

As far as "having your cake and eat it too" that is a saying, nothing more than words. It has no actual practical application. If I speed to work 2 days out of the week because my alarm didn't go off on time, then I see on the news that someone killed 10 people driving 100mph, I will criticize him. If I took a piss outside in college drunk, then I take my kid for a walk and some bum is pissing on the sidewalk, I will ask him what the fuck he is doing.

You can label me a hypocrite for "wanting to have my cake and eating it too" but it's not going to make me doubt my own opinion or actions or feel stupid or guilty. We all have our cake and eat it too to some extent. Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree on some issue its not really something to be ashamed of unless someone has a life goal to be self-righteous which is not a quality put much value into.

What I mean by "having your cake and eating it too is that these substances exist and will be used by different people for different reasons. Folks like you and me who use AAS recreationally (since I stopped competing); are we "cheating those who don't use because we are artificially enhancing our physiques? It is difficult to use AAS while simultaneously decrying others who use them for different purposes. In this narrow scenario I think it's a bit hypocritical. I mean, we are all hypocritical in some ways because none of us are perfect. Just my two cents. Maybe just agree to disagree