Deca is it worth the risk?

[Diet Coke]

Thanks.
from the post I couldn't tell if you meant take the article with a grain of salt, or what turbobusa said with a grain of salt. Thanks for explaining.

Ive always "heard" the same as Turbo. Its good for the joints, Lubes them or something? Same as Many always have claimed that winn drys them out.
Is either true or old wise tails?? I cant say I know from a medical fact, with xrays or scanns or any other high tech methods etc etc,
I only know how each have worked from my experiences, and what training partners and good friends from here tell one another.

winstrol made my joints feel like concrete.....and that was back in the days of Winny V from Upjohn....everyone I knew that took winstrol had bad joint pain....Deca was like mobil one for the joints...sounds like one of the writers got his references wrong...

 

[SpartanLabs]

I have always heard deca increased synovial fluid problem therefore lubricating your joints...and it has always done just that for me.

 

[jt4330]

I have always heard deca increased synovial fluid problem therefore lubricating your joints...and it has always done just that for me.

My buddy who's in his early 40s is on trt and deca. He said ever since on deca his little aches/joints got a lot better. He is on 200 test- 200 deca if that helps. I tried deca once, and all be it being my fault I got deca dick and I have not decided to try it again. I did get some NPP for the winter, but I will be a lot more prepared this time around.

 

[sexy flexy]

deca will really put on size,cannot beat a test /deca cycle for bulk..
very simple......never had a problem with my joints when using it

 

[Mike Arnold]

Deca doesn't damage the joints and yes, for many lifters it eliminates (or reduces) joint pain, but it will damage the tendons over time. Recent studies were pretty clear about this, BUT....Deca is not the only steroid which weakens tendons. Testosterone can substantially weaken tendons through reduced collagen production, as can many other steroids.

The reason this recent research is kind of big news is because for many years we thought the exact opposite about Deca; we thought it increased tendon strength, due to it's ability to increase collagen prodction, but we were wrong. It now appears nandrolone use no good for tendon strength and over time, can lead to an increased risk of injury.

 

[MikeS]

Funny how many different ideas on the same compound are found in this one thread! Not that anything is etched in stone...especially as to why something does, or does not help aching joints. Winny has definately been given the label of making joints stiff and achey...deca seems to have the great reputation of easing joint pain. Injuries are a different ballgame IMO...its from improper use of weight of a predisposition to injury, of which neither has to do with what type of AAS youre using. I really wouldnt consider deca a size builder...most strictly anabolic drugs (like deca) arent amazing mass gainers, average at best. Id say decas best use is for joint relief, there are many better drugs to use to gain size and strength. Way back it may have been considered a vital part of a stack, because things were so much more basic in the 70s and 80s...all the complex stacks and different products werent part of the typical program, and the internet wasnt around for new ideas and discussion. Ive been in the game since the mid 80s...this is the progression in use and knowledge Ive noticed.

 

[RINO]

Deca doesn't damage the joints and yes, for many lifters it eliminates (or reduces) joint pain, but it will damage the tendons over time. Recent studies were pretty clear about this, BUT....Deca is not the only steroid which weakens tendons. Testosterone can substantially weaken tendons through reduced collagen production, as can many other steroids.

The reason this recent research is kind of big news is because for many years we thought the exact opposite about Deca; we thought it increased tendon strength, due to it's ability to increase collagen prodction, but we were wrong. It now appears nandrolone use no good for tendon strength and over time, can lead to an increased risk of injury.

If memory serves me I'm pretty sure test in the range of 250mg/wk and below increases collagen production. After that it starts to have a detrimental effect. I believe the problem with deca is that it affects the heart ventricals negatively. Damage occurs in less then a ten week time frame. Most people that use deca tend to use it for durations greater then ten weeks.

 

[TNH]

I am constantly amazed at how different all these drugs are for each individual.

I know quite a few people who swear by low dose deca for tendons/joints. I have one friend in particular that was in a horrible car wreck, and he says deca @ 200mg per week dramatically improves his life and is better than most painkillers. He is prescribed pain meds for his damaged joints and back, and he barely uses them since the deca seems to help more according to him.

Deca is one of my staples (or NPP I should say, I never use Deca anymore).
Nothing puts on size for me like NPP, and nothing makes me stronger.
I get more strength gains from NPP than I do from tren or halo.

700mg of NPP will put far more mass on me than 700mg of testosterone.
For the most part, I alternate between tren use and NPP use. Tren for cutting, NPP for bulking. Test doesn't do much for me at any dose.

 

[Mike Arnold]

If memory serves me I'm pretty sure test in the range of 250mg/wk and below increases collagen production. After that it starts to have a detrimental effect. I believe the problem with deca is that it affects the heart ventricals negatively. Damage occurs in less then a ten week time frame. Most people that use deca tend to use it for durations greater then ten weeks.

You're correct, testosterone's negative effect on collagen production increases as the dose rises. "Normal" levels of testostrone don't reduce collagen production, but as soon as we start to go outside of a failry normal range, it begins to have this effect.

The following is a partial cut & paste from an article referencing 2 studies, which looked at the negative effects nandrolone had on the tendons:

There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.

It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)

 

[johnjuanb1]

Ok so i read in MD mag how bad deca was on your joints,tendons,muscles exc...they listed all the pros who wher on it when they tore a muscle everyone from ronnie king colman to dorina yates,iv even had a trainer who knows jose raymond personally tell me to stay away from it,BUT iv seen alot of guys get on it and blow right up,its one of the aas that iv never touched but would like to try it,i know some of the guys on hear some of the BEST knowledge and expericane,just seeing if i can get some info from you guys on your own experiances with DECA!!! thx

Don't believe everything you read. Deca increases collagen production.

 

[johnjuanb1]

I have always heard deca increased synovial fluid problem therefore lubricating your joints...and it has always done just that for me.

Exactly! :yeahthat:

 

[raw33man]

Funny how many different ideas on the same compound are found in this one thread! Not that anything is etched in stone...especially as to why something does, or does not help aching joints. Winny has definately been given the label of making joints stiff and achey...deca seems to have the great reputation of easing joint pain. Injuries are a different ballgame IMO...its from improper use of weight of a predisposition to injury, of which neither has to do with what type of AAS youre using. I really wouldnt consider deca a size builder...most strictly anabolic drugs (like deca) arent amazing mass gainers, average at best. Id say decas best use is for joint relief, there are many better drugs to use to gain size and strength. Way back it may have been considered a vital part of a stack, because things were so much more basic in the 70s and 80s...all the complex stacks and different products werent part of the typical program, and the internet wasnt around for new ideas and discussion. Ive been in the game since the mid 80s...this is the progression in use and knowledge Ive noticed.

What's your favorite Vitamin S to build mass ? Test ?

 

[RINO]

I am constantly amazed at how different all these drugs are for each individual.

I know quite a few people who swear by low dose deca for tendons/joints. I have one friend in particular that was in a horrible car wreck, and he says deca @ 200mg per week dramatically improves his life and is better than most painkillers. He is prescribed pain meds for his damaged joints and back, and he barely uses them since the deca seems to help more according to him.

Deca is one of my staples (or NPP I should say, I never use Deca anymore).
Nothing puts on size for me like NPP, and nothing makes me stronger.
I get more strength gains from NPP than I do from tren or halo.

700mg of NPP will put far more mass on me than 700mg of testosterone.
For the most part, I alternate between tren use and NPP use. Tren for cutting, NPP for bulking. Test doesn't do much for me at any dose.

I find the same with deca. Works better then test for me as well.

 

[Elvia1023]

Deca is getting such a bad rep these days. I have seen all the studies and sure there are many risks but the same goes for so many things will take. It has helped built so many amazing physiques over the years... added to that make thousands of guys joints feel 50x better. I am yet to try npp but I am sure that will replace deca for me in many cycle once I do try it. But deca to me is far superior to test in so many ways.

I have experimented using higher deca than test and then reversed and the gains were supurior using higher deca. Even 150mg per week will make my whole body feel so much better. Sure many get bad sides with it but I think half of those guys get them before they even start due to what they hear it does. It's definately worth the risk but like with anything if your smart with your dosing there doesn't really have to be a great risk. There can be risk with any aas. Let's not write deca off just yet

 

[Krunkkid13]

I love deca and npp. My job is physically demanding to the extreme and i have used deca for many years just for that reason deca helps my joint pain. I could see tearing something from maybe the sudden strength increase if you are new to cycling/lifting but i dont buy that deca affects joints/tendons adversely because in a 12hr shift i used to tthrow 200lbs slips a couple hunded timesand if a tendon or joint was gunna blow on deca it was gunna blow then. No science there just personal experience.

 

[thebigguy84]

probably due to the risk for blood clots....due to high hematocrit....

Sure you aren't referring to EQ or ANADROL?

 

[MikeS]

What's your favorite Vitamin S to build mass ? Test ?

I guess thats a little off subject...but IMO 'test is best' if you were to use one steroid. Its what your body was made to respond to. OF course high dose raises estro and DHT levels....so precaution must be made to combat those sides, or just use low doses (around 200-300mg). Stack with tren is best simple stack, again IMO. Test with DBol good too but with some bloat/gut distention.

Elvia, you say all the great physiques built with deca over the years...no to put that down, but rarely is deca used alone, everyone knows what that does (anabolic response without androgenic properties)...over the years its been used with test...dbol...and Id more attribute the great results to that and not the deca, most use deca for the relief of joint aches. Just my take in 25yrs of experience and feedback.

 

[Crom]

I guess thats a little off subject...but IMO 'test is best' if you were to use one steroid. Its what your body was made to respond to. OF course high dose raises estro and DHT levels....so precaution must be made to combat those sides, or just use low doses (around 200-300mg). Stack with tren is best simple stack, again IMO. Test with DBol good too but with some bloat/gut distention.

Elvia, you say all the great physiques built with deca over the years...no to put that down, but rarely is deca used alone, everyone knows what that does (anabolic response without androgenic properties)...over the years its been used with test...dbol...and Id more attribute the great results to that and not the deca, most use deca for the relief of joint aches. Just my take in 25yrs of experience and feedback.

You are right, rarely is deca used alone, but neither was dbol or test. They allways stacked in the 70's/80's like we did now. How many times have we not heard of people loosing all their "gains" after a dbol only cycle? I would say deca is just as responsible for the results as what it was stacked with. That is also my personal experience after having beeing on deca for 5-6 years straight low dose.

 

[Ehren]

Deca is one of my staples (or NPP I should say, I never use Deca anymore).
Nothing puts on size for me like NPP, and nothing makes me stronger.
I get more strength gains from NPP than I do from tren or halo.

700mg of NPP will put far more mass on me than 700mg of testosterone.
For the most part, I alternate between tren use and NPP use. Tren for cutting, NPP for bulking. Test doesn't do much for me at any dose.

^Same here, exactly. NPP is a top 3 choice for me. Others being Tren and Masteron. I get as strong on NPP as Tren at the same dose. Dunno why, Tren just cuts fat off me a better. And my joints always feel GREAT on NPP. If I use Test at all, it's the smallest amount, possible and just to feel healthy.

Favorite Stack is NPP/Winnie/Masteron. Strong, hard and full. And zero joint pain or bloat.

I've not been brave enough to try NPP/Tren together yet. But I can see it as a future option.

 

[Crom]

You're correct, testosterone's negative effect on collagen production increases as the dose rises. "Normal" levels of testostrone don't reduce collagen production, but as soon as we start to go outside of a failry normal range, it begins to have this effect.

The following is a partial cut & paste from an article referencing 2 studies, which looked at the negative effects nandrolone had on the tendons:[/B]

There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.

It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).

The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)

Ok, I am aware of most studies being performed on animals and yes, there is some extrapolation possible but there are also problems doing that as human and animal physiology is not the same. There is a lot of suggestions here like in any study. The dose also is high. 10mg/kg = 1000mg for a 100kg man (220lbs). That's a lot, not too often do I see this kind of dose.

There was also Dr G in his own thread talking about the experiments done on chicken breasts and injection of nandrolone. He said they showed significant growth and therefor there could be made a claim of site injections leading to site growth. I have done deca 5-6 years straight and allways site injected arm or shoulders but never had any site growth at all. Maybe I used too low dose or maybe animal studies - even though useful - can not allways be extrapolated to human beings. Theory and real life experience are not allways the same.