Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (question)

[OuchThatHurts]

I assume most all of you have read a ton of articles on training intervals and the causes of muscle soreness.

Question is, how many of you train a muscle even if it's still sore? Or better yet, what do you use to gauge when a muscle is ready to take another beating?

Here's the reason I ask: I've been doing 5-6 sets on isolation exercises for weeks (months) but yesterday, I took the ephedrine, caffeine, and CEE before my workout and my strength and reps were WAY high off the charts, BUT after just a couple sets per body part, my muscles were DEAD! I mean, I couldn't even curl a 40. Today I'm sore as hell. I know that tomorrow I have another workout but I'm sure my delts and tris are still going to be sore. Do I wait or do I push through? I'm thinking I should give those a week. Opinions?

Doesn't have to be specific answers, just curious how you guys handle soreness.

take care... jeez my bi's are killing me... LOL

OTH

[edit] did I mention what a pussy I am???

 

[TheGame46]

Well if its DOMS you are going to be weaker if you are still very sore because your soreness is fro microtrauma which fucks up the length tension relationship of the muscle and basically it can't contract very efficently or completely.

A little sore is fine to train again. I train intense 3X per week and a lot of the time I will be a lil sore but after warming up etc. I'm not sore anymore.
One thing you should consider if you are getting very very sore is the amount of volume you are using and carbs/BCAA's pre mid post.

Microtrauma is needed for growth, but excessive is actually somewhat inhibitory

 

[thebrick]

My approach it to let the soreness go away before I hit it hard again. It tells me that the muscle tissue is still in the repair mode. I rest and eat.

 

[b4n30n3]

I always thought if you workout a muscle that is sore then you are probly gonna be overtrainning it. Better to rest and let it grow than to overtrain it.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I remember doing "feeder workouts" in college. I don't do them anymore but we thought that getting a mild pump going the next day increased blood flow and nutrients to aid the healing muscle. Is there any validity to all that?

What if the soreness is just some lingering byproducts of the exercise itself and not necessarily damaged tissue (i.e. lactic acid)?

Seems as though I can be sore for a week even though I know (or at least I think I know) that that muscle has had enough rest.

I guess there is just no definitive way to tell other than to use your performance as a barometer? Though, I've had shit workouts on days that I felt great, and some days you feel like junk and then you go blow the roof off the gym.

 

[violentmessiah]

Microcycles

in weights/reps, etc....are always helpful for me. I can keep things going and even kind of do an active recovery type thing with lighter workouts. It doesn't seem to me that soreness is necessarily an indicator that your muscles aren't ready to work again, but some of my thoughts on this are brought about by thoughts on adaptation, endurance, and what's going on (example, stretching HARD as I do in martial arts can cause pain lasting into the next day or 2, but that's no an indicator for me that I can do anything again until the soreness is gone).
Oh, anti-oxidant supplements seem to help DOMS for me too.

 

[littlemack]

Alright OTH. Let me break it down for ya' pardner. It doesn't matter! Here's the deal. There's this big debate, right, about whether this soreness is lactic acid buildup or actual muscle damage. My experiences always tell me that if I train too hard and I am real sore 2 days later, that if I train again, 2 days later, my body WILL eventually adapt. I just went through this with calves and Phil's routine. My calves were so sore I could hardly walk 2 days later. I trained them again, even though they were sore, and a week later my body had adapted and I COULDN'T make them sore if I tried. Let me tell ya something. I've trained the same body part with 15-18 sets per workout 3-5 times in the same week. My body is sore the first couple of weeks, but eventually adapts and you can't throw enough at it to make it sore. I'm a natty and can withstand this...so you guys should have NO problems with it. Now. Is it over training to go this ballastic? Yeah. No doubt about it. But you'd be surprised at what your body can handle. Phil knows this stuff and can probably better respond. I'm just sort of going on my own personal experiences. Go ahead and train. You may be sore, even the next 2 or 3 workouts, but it will subside and your body will be more resiliant in my opinion.

 

[TheGame46]

Alright OTH. Let me break it down for ya' pardner. It doesn't matter! Here's the deal. There's this big debate, right, about whether this soreness is lactic acid buildup or actual muscle damage. My experiences always tell me that if I train too hard and I am real sore 2 days later, that if I train again, 2 days later, my body WILL eventually adapt. I just went through this with calves and Phil's routine. My calves were so sore I could hardly walk 2 days later. I trained them again, even though they were sore, and a week later my body had adapted and I COULDN'T make them sore if I tried. Let me tell ya something. I've trained the same body part with 15-18 sets per workout 3-5 times in the same week. My body is sore the first couple of weeks, but eventually adapts and you can't throw enough at it to make it sore. I'm a natty and can withstand this...so you guys should have NO problems with it. Now. Is it over training to go this ballastic? Yeah. No doubt about it. But you'd be surprised at what your body can handle. Phil knows this stuff and can probably better respond. I'm just sort of going on my own personal experiences. Go ahead and train. You may be sore, even the next 2 or 3 workouts, but it will subside and your body will be more resiliant in my opinion.

Where is there a debate that DOMS is lactic acid??? Unless you stop breathing after you workout, thats pretty much limits lactic acid at 24hours.

 

[joshbarnett]

i have always told people to be fully recovered before you hit that muscle group again. people who train no matter what and dont listen to their bodies are the one's that will eventually overtrain and see no results. this is exactly why i switched to DC training years ago. i am fully recovered every time i hit a bodypart.

 

[littlemack]

Where is there a debate that DOMS is lactic acid??? Unless you stop breathing after you workout, thats pretty much limits lactic acid at 24hours.

In the old days Game46, we used to think the soreness was due to lactic acid buildup. Runners always contended this soreness was from microtears though and this is what most people now believe. But it hasn't always been that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness

Seriously, though, once my body is conditioned, I am never sore.

 

[jtat326]

In the old days Game46, we used to think the soreness was due to lactic acid buildup. Runners always contended this soreness was from microtears though and this is what most people now believe. But it hasn't always been that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness

Seriously, though, once my body is conditioned, I am never sore.

If I have no soreness after what I feel is a hard workout, it means my body has established homeostasis with that routine and it's time to change it up. Just MO.

 

[littlemack]

If I have no soreness after what I feel is a hard workout, it means my body has established homeostasis with that routine and it's time to change it up. Just MO.

Don't gauge progress by how "sore" you are after a workout. I know most people like to think that way, but its not an accurate way to measure. Keep a log and gauge your progress by strength increases and how much mass your adding. A lot of this "soreness" comes from the eccentric phase of the lift. Some of you guys who are doing "negatives" will more than likely be more sore.

 

[JETHRO TULL]

Well....I am like you OUch. I can get sore every time.

I wish I didn't....but I do. It helps me tremendously to stretch and use the hot tub. Then I feel great. I can do three sets on chest for example...and if I have done them hard...I'll get sore. Yeah, from just that amount of work.

Alas, it appears as if there is more than one pussy on board!

I have extreme trouble recovering on front delts. If I do chest...somehow...no matter how careful I am...I still get sore in the shoulders enough so that I end up sore if I were to do military presses later on in the week. Certainly 2 days later would be out of the question in my case. How do I know?

I have gone ahead and done it...did militaries....then the next bench day I was weaker. So....I rarely do any direct shoulder work and they are probably one of my best bodyparts. I might do some shrugs on back day....or some laterals on chest day..but that's about it.

When I say screw it...I am gonna hit these bitches anyway....they never stop being sore.

If I got to train a bodypart and it's still sore I'll go to the gym and have a hard ab/ calf and forearm day. Yep, a pussy.

 

[littlemack]

I wish I didn't....but I do. It helps me tremendously to stretch and use the hot tub. Then I feel great. I can do three sets on chest for example...and if I have done them hard...I'll get sore. Yeah, from just that amount of work.

Alas, it appears as if there is more than one pussy on board!

I have extreme trouble recovering on front delts. If I do chest...somehow...no matter how careful I am...I still get sore in the shoulders enough so that I end up sore if I were to do military presses later on in the week. Certainly 2 days later would be out of the question in my case. How do I know?

I have gone ahead and done it...did militaries....then the next bench day I was weaker. So....I rarely do any direct shoulder work and they are probably one of my best bodyparts. I might do some shrugs on back day....or some laterals on chest day..but that's about it.

When I say screw it...I am gonna hit these bitches anyway....they never stop being sore.

If I got to train a bodypart and it's still sore I'll go to the gym and have a hard ab/ calf and forearm day. Yep, a pussy.

Tehehehehe. JT. Your a funny guy...but I know the real truth! A little pain never hurt you man!

 

[TheGame46]

In the old days Game46, we used to think the soreness was due to lactic acid buildup. Runners always contended this soreness was from microtears though and this is what most people now believe. But it hasn't always been that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness

Seriously, though, once my body is conditioned, I am never sore.

This is because of increased nueromuscular efficency during the eccentric rep, you basically have fully adapted to the stress of the eccentric motion you are doing. try changing up the tempo or doing some negatives and see if that doesn't return your DOMS.

 

[bigheinz]

Never train with muscle soreness, you will get mash muscle instead stimulate muscle growht, your body has a limited reuperation capacity, so if you are not already recuperated, and dont let your body the time to priduce new muscle you will never grow or you will grow very slow. That is where hit principles are good.

 

[TheGame46]

Once again, real science to throw out the gym science

Hormonal responses to a resistance exercise performed under the influence of delayed onset muscle soreness.
• Pullinen T,
• Mero A,
• Huttunen P,
• Pakarinen A,
• Komi PV.
Department of Biology of Physical Activity, Neuromuscular Research Center, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland. [email protected]
Hormonal responses to an unaccustomed knee-extension exercise (E1; 5 times 10 repetitions with 40% load of 1RM [1 repetition maximum] followed by 2 sets until exhaustion) were compared in 6 men with the corresponding responses to an identical exercise performed 2 days later under the influence of delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) (E2). Both exercises were performed with a variable-resistance machine causing exhaustion with significantly fewer repetitions than a normal constant-resistance knee-extension device does. The E1 induced DOMS as expected, but the 1RM, the total work done, and the repetition number and frequency were not different in the 2 exercises. In the 2 sets to failure, the mean repetition number varied between 17 and 25. The exercise-induced norepinephrine, epinephrine, testosterone, cortisol (COR), and growth hormone (GH) increases were similar in the 2 exercises, although the overall level of COR and GH, including the preexercise concentrations, tended to decline in the second exercise. The results may thus suggest that the hormonal response to resistance exercise is not significantly altered when performed soon after an unaccustomed exercise bout leading to DOMS.
PMID: 12173952 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Moen]

When doing (or better when starting) a high(er) frequency routine you will have to train through soreness initially or otherwise you'll never get conditioned to it

Bigheinz: you as a HIT-fan should know this, Arthur Jones himself for example said this exact thing

 

[OuchThatHurts]

So is there a correlation between muscle regeneration and soreness? Can a muscle be totally recuperated yet still have soreness? I just want to go forward with this higher volume routine but I don't want to tear down muscle that is still torn down from my last workout.

So the update is today I did chest with dumbell presses (slight incline), pullovers, and pec-deck (18 sets total). Now my tri's were still sore as hell and so were my middle and rear delts but I still had a good workout despite the soreness but initially, there was some fatigue/ache that disappeared after a set or two.

I'm going to stick with this caffeine, ephedrine, and CEE stack pre-workout for a while too BTW... it really makes a difference! I can no longer doubt that CEE is an effective alternative to monohydrate. I have legs on friday but won't hit anything upper body until monday. That's almost 5 days.

A few people have said to train through and soreness will disappear but then to change up to continue to get soreness. Is soreness a sign that you have had an intense workout or a sign that you just flat-out overdid it?

 

[Conan21]

I've read alot of things

thats an iffy subject

If your still slightly sore go ahead and lift but judge off of performance. On the flip side to this, One could say that just because your NOT sore doesn't mean your fully recovered.

it also highly depends on how the program is laid out as. is it progressive loading? or going all out and trying to add weight each time. if its the latter I would allow for more recovery.

When i train bench I usually have slight soreness every workout. Bench 3 times a week. but it is a Dual Factor Program. Your not supposed to be fully recovered to train again. Loading and recovery is done over the coarse of mulitiple workouts instead of workout to workout.

muscles definately don't have to be fully recovered to train them again. you will be hard pressed to find many world record holding lifters who train their power lifting in a completely train-->recovery-->train basis.