Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (question)

[TheGame46]

why train high volume??? I just don't see why high volume training is still around with what we know now.

 

[Heavy_Lifter]

If I have no soreness after what I feel is a hard workout, it means my body has established homeostasis with that routine and it's time to change it up. Just MO.

Try Arachadonic acid at 1-1.5grams/day. My god, I feel like old man!

 

[OuchThatHurts]

why train high volume??? I just don't see why high volume training is still around with what we know now.

I have been training low volume for so long I thought I'd switch for a few months. I wanted to train a higher volume for a couple reasons..

1. I've been lifting for power for a long time and although size is a given, there are definite proportion problems.

2. I've read that lower volume induces hypertrophy while higher volume induces hyperplasia.

3. Larger pumps, stretching the fascia and improving blood flow to the muscle.

4. Combined with IGF-1 PWO, I assumed I was increasing the total number of cells, and with the addition of humalog, increasing the levels of nutrients to the muscle and additional cells (amino acids, glucose, minerals, etc.)

Remember now, the bodypart I work with day-to-day does not contract and is not attached to bone via tendons. The above could be all bad science. Although I've been training for what seems like forever, my style has always been pretty much garden variety. I'm not a trainer, nor do I employ one. Perhaps I should. I just go by what I read. All reading aside the only thing I've noticed definitively in myself is that after periods of dieting, my return to moderate calories/carbs produced a big change in my body. Does that mean I should bulk up with fat and muscle and then strip the fat, and repeat and repeat? I don't know. I just know that throughout that whole process I changed my body's appearance to a greater degree than anything else I've done. I'm 15lbs heavier and leaner now than I was last december. Most of that was done with low rep, high intensity sets. A few warm-ups and one big all-out work set. Still much different than 15 sets of 2 reps at 75% SRM. I'd be interested in what you have to say Game, if you don't mind typing it up. My logic could be flawed or severly outdated.

 

[need2bhuge]

Non linear periodized training! Remember that the size principle explains that there are three rep ranges to work your full muscle. 12-20 Type I, 6-12 Type I/Type II, 3-5 Type II high threshold motor units. If you work in your 3-5 rep range then you need a lot of rest time in between sets the stimultae the same muscle. You will still be working the motor units below this rep range; however, as you move down the line you need to increase volume to maximally stimulte the fiber/motor units. So if you work your 3-5 or 6-12 and are still sore when you want to hit it again you can still work your lower threshold motor untis using hig volume and low rest. By doing this you can get the pump (anything over 45% maximal shuts off venous return causing blood pool, or the pump). Your pump, what everyone loves will allow a longer period of time for the serum hormones in your blood to interact with hormaonal receptors on your sarcomere. This higher volume protocol will not induce as high of a level of test, but will increase you lactic acid and in turn your HGH levels. Lactic acid does not cause muslce soreness as stated above and is a myth. Numerous studies have shown that lactic acid is just a marker! The DOMS is caused by microtrauma and possibly other reasons which are being researched. It is correct that the DOMS is caused by eccentric force...ATP releases the myosin heads from the active sites on the actin during normal muscle contraction; however, doing higher loads in the eccentric range rips the myosin heads off instead of releasing them...the more efficiently your myosin heads can brake, the the more weight you can handle eccentrically.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Non linear periodized training! Remember that the size principle explains that there are three rep ranges to work your full muscle. 12-20 Type I, 6-12 Type I/Type II, 3-5 Type II high threshold motor units. If you work in your 3-5 rep range then you need a lot of rest time in between sets the stimultae the same muscle. You will still be working the motor units below this rep range; however, as you move down the line you need to increase volume to maximally stimulte the fiber/motor units. So if you work your 3-5 or 6-12 and are still sore when you want to hit it again you can still work your lower threshold motor untis using hig volume and low rest. By doing this you can get the pump (anything over 45% maximal shuts off venous return causing blood pool, or the pump). Your pump, what everyone loves will allow a longer period of time for the serum hormones in your blood to interact with hormaonal receptors on your sarcomere. This higher volume protocol will not induce as high of a level of test, but will increase you lactic acid and in turn your HGH levels. Lactic acid does not cause muslce soreness as stated above and is a myth. Numerous studies have shown that lactic acid is just a marker! The DOMS is caused by microtrauma and possibly other reasons which are being researched. It is correct that the DOMS is caused by eccentric force...ATP releases the myosin heads from the active sites on the actin during normal muscle contraction; however, doing higher loads in the eccentric range rips the myosin heads off instead of releasing them...the more efficiently your myosin heads can brake, the the more weight you can handle eccentrically.

Non linear what?!? Just kidding. Can you dumb this down for me?

 

[KillerStack]

The most recent research on DOMS I read a while ago said the soreness isn't due to actual damage to the muscle fibers. Had something to do with the fascia instead. I think one particular paper said something to the effect of "soreness is basically a sign that adaptation is taking place".

Personally I think one should train as often as possible, while still being able increase loads periodically. Protein synthesis is only elevated about 48 hours after the workout so it makes sense to keep the protein synthesis elevated all the time. Steroids could change this of course, obviously many juicers get good results training each bodypart once a week or so.

 

[need2bhuge]

Non linear what?!? Just kidding. Can you dumb this down for me?

Non linear periodized training is a type of training that takes into account your physical ability before the lift. So if you are feeling weak/sore then you do a light day of 12-15 reps which will act like an active rest day for the worked muscles....you will not be working the targeted muscles that are sore! This active rest day which would incorporate high reps and short rest would still activate muscle growth by stimulating lactic acid buildup and in turn promote higher HGH release. The pump from the lower rest period/high volume will allow for your muscle to "soak up" more floating hormones in your blood. The blood pool caused by the pump allows a longer reaction time between the serum hormones and the receptors on the muscle. Theoretically, by doing non linear periodized training no week will look the same! In a true non linear periodized routine you would incorporate heavy, power, light and very light days...the light and very light days are active rest days.

 

[littlemack]

In the interest of discussion....I've been thinking about this today...

So Wed. I go train legs for the first time in a little over two weeks. I came down with another respiratory infection and cold and so I told myself, "self...your coughing up green shit...I don't think you should train..."
So on Wed. I go into the gym, but of course, my mom likes to give me that lecture about going into the gym and easing into things over a week or two, "Mack you don't have to go 100% when you've been sick...". Yeah mom...blah...blah..blah..blah...blah... lol.
So I say, "ok, let's just do 3 sets of 10 reps on squats to parallel with something easy like 315...." Ok...the first set...piece of cake...the second and third... HOLY SHIT!!! Gettin' all dizzy...stumbling everywhere...gotta find an empty bench to lay down on... hahaha... I think I managed 5 and 6 reps on those next sets...hahaha

So I go home. No soreness really. Feeling pretty decent. Just fatigued. That night. Same thing. Just feeling zapped. Next morning... man... I'm starting to feel a little sore...but really no biggie. Sit at work all day on Thursday...and I notice...the longer I sit...the more sore I get... and I'm feeling a little tired...just kinda achy. Today is friday... Woke up feeling like I slept with a scorpion in my bed...oh wait...I did sleep with a hot little scorpion last night...(hehehe...yeah right...fucking internet dating bullshit has produced ZERO results...I think I'm going to look into Russian Mail Order Brides)... As the day lingers I notice two things. One..I walk like frankenstein or like something's up my ass, and two I REALLY JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO BED!!! I am so damn tired and I've been getting 8+ hours of sleep at night...
Now I know, young and old, beginner and veteran, we've all been there and we've all enjoyed this kind of welcoming back party... Totally normal.

But it got me to thinking about this delayed onset muscle soreness question that my buddy OTH posted so long ago. Are these really micro-tears in the muscle belly? I guess we've ruled out lactic acid buildup. What I don't understand is, the soreness gets worse and worse and for me...is always worse two-three days later than the next day. If it were micro tears, then I would expect that you would feel the pain immeadiately and that the pain would get better with time. Not worse. Just like what happened with me when I tore my pec two years ago. Sharp pain at first, ached like hell all day long, but then slowly the pain subsided...

So what do you guys think abou this? Help me through the logic.
Thanks!

 

[aesop]

Non linear periodized training is a type of training that takes into account your physical ability before the lift. So if you are feeling weak/sore then you do a light day of 12-15 reps which will act like an active rest day for the worked muscles....you will not be working the targeted muscles that are sore! This active rest day which would incorporate high reps and short rest would still activate muscle growth by stimulating lactic acid buildup and in turn promote higher HGH release. The pump from the lower rest period/high volume will allow for your muscle to "soak up" more floating hormones in your blood. The blood pool caused by the pump allows a longer reaction time between the serum hormones and the receptors on the muscle. Theoretically, by doing non linear periodized training no week will look the same! In a true non linear periodized routine you would incorporate heavy, power, light and very light days...the light and very light days are active rest days.

Correlation is not causation! Lactic acid correlates with an increase in Gh. It does not cause it. H+'s from Lactic acid, and other metabolic end products(adp, amp etc) cause vasodilation leading to ischemia. Lack of blood flow rapidly decreases blood glucose levels which then leads to increased Gh levels within the ischemic muscle. Low blood glucose levels also lead to incrreased cortisol levles which could lead to increased protein degradation. This is precisely why nutrient/supplement timing is so important. Use of EAA's + xtra leucine have shown the ability to decrease protein degradation during exercise and increase net protein synthesis post workout. Proper pre/intra/post workout nutrition is essential for bber's and other athletes to get the most out of there training. There was also a study done that showed that tying a tourniquet around your arm will greatly increase gh levels at 15 reps X %30 1rm, why they needed to do a study to find this out, I have no clue. The real question would be does tourniquet training, when accompanied with proper nutrition, increase hypertrophy? Which the study did not answer.


Periodization is a good thing whether it be linear or not, mainly to maintain innervation while also trying to maintain hypertrophy.

Not in reference to your post but to what I have seen on this board lately and throughout this post:

Evidence for Hyperplasia in adult humans is scant and anecdotal, if it does occur it is likely to only occurr in a very small percentage of the population.

 

[Big_K]

I get really bad DOMS when i change up a routine, or when i don't properly warm up and strech, so my personal theory is that its causing micro-damage to fibres that arn't ready for that type of beating for whatever reason, and don't manifest for a couple of days until the real repair work gets going and your body doesn't want you to disturb it.

Generally i don't like to workout with DOMS, it just makes thing worse, workouts suck and i'm lazy, so its a good excuse to get out of things. If i'm just stiff then a good warmup sorts that out.

 

[rch]

Ugh... my head hurts. Just train hard (whatever style floats your boat... they all work) and eat lots. Do it long enough and you'll get big.

Honestly, do you really think Ronny Coleman or Marcus Ruhl or most of the rest of the pros put this much "scientific thought" into their training? And don't even start with the "but they're all genetic freaks, blah, blah, blah". Train hard, eat big, get big... that's it. Period.

If you want to try a new training style just go for it... stop thinking it to death and just do it!! See if it works for you. What works for one might not work for another and there is no way, no test, no discussion in the world that is going to tell you this... you have to do it yourself.

I've been training hard for almost 28 years and I've tried all kinds of different routines and they ALL worked. High volume, low volume, whatever. Someone earlier was talking about peroidized training or something... not trying to be an ass, but you actually needed a study to tell you to train a little lighter with higher reps when you were tired and heavier when you were feeling good? Whatever happened to instinct? Your own body is the most highly tuned, sensitive instrument in the world... listen to it and make your own judgement.

Good luck with the workouts!

 

[oldfella]

I always get a chuckle out of all the different theories and systems of training. It is amusing to read all the research and quotes from et.al this and phd that. Ouch and others, it is simple, no need to overcomplicate this. You train in a style and manner which produces the best result for you!! I personally do not subscribe to all the hype and Bs of what most cite here from research. As you all know I am old, not washed up just at 48 and still going strong I've tried just about all this stuff. What works for me and has always produced results with minimal amounts of gear is 5 days a week, one body part per day. Go to town on it and spread your body parts out so you do not have an awfull lot of overlap. High volume Ouch, this is what has always produced the most gains for me. 20 set chest workouts,30+ set leg workouts. All done with intensity and heavy movements. At the moment I am making crazy gains. Sitting just under 275lbs and getting ready to start cutting. I change my workouts from week to week. Meaning I change my exercise selection for each body part. As for soreness, I will not train the muscle again until it has fully recovered. If I train chest one day, then I will train back the next. Shoulders and arms at the end of the week. I do agree with what some have said, a little soreness is ok to go again, but still fucking sore the next time, you have not allowed enough recovery time from the last session. At the moment I am getting impressive shoulder gains and without any overhead pressing. My shoulder have never been a strong point for me but since I have taken the all dumbell, high volume approach they are going stupid. Again no overhead pressing. The messege here is DO WHAT PRODUCES THE BEST GAINS FOR YOU! But until you have tried all the variables you will not know what works, I like to think I've covered those bases! I say KEEP IT SIMPLE! Train hard, Train heavy, eat right and rest, you will grow!!

 

[oldfella]

Ugh... my head hurts. Just train hard (whatever style floats your boat... they all work) and eat lots. Do it long enough and you'll get big.

Honestly, do you really think Ronny Coleman or Marcus Ruhl or most of the rest of the pros put this much "scientific thought" into their training? And don't even start with the "but they're all genetic freaks, blah, blah, blah". Train hard, eat big, get big... that's it. Period.

If you want to try a new training style just go for it... stop thinking it to death and just do it!! See if it works for you. What works for one might not work for another and there is no way, no test, no discussion in the world that is going to tell you this... you have to do it yourself.

I've been training hard for almost 28 years and I've tried all kinds of different routines and they ALL worked. High volume, low volume, whatever. Someone earlier was talking about peroidized training or something... not trying to be an ass, but you actually needed a study to tell you to train a little lighter with higher reps when you were tired and heavier when you were feeling good? Whatever happened to instinct? Your own body is the most highly tuned, sensitive instrument in the world... listen to it and make your own judgement.

Good luck with the workouts!

One word comes to mind "INSTINCT". good reply rch

 

[km2000]

Ugh... my head hurts. Just train hard (whatever style floats your boat... they all work) and eat lots. Do it long enough and you'll get big.

Honestly, do you really think Ronny Coleman or Marcus Ruhl or most of the rest of the pros put this much "scientific thought" into their training? And don't even start with the "but they're all genetic freaks, blah, blah, blah". Train hard, eat big, get big... that's it. Period.

If you want to try a new training style just go for it... stop thinking it to death and just do it!! See if it works for you. What works for one might not work for another and there is no way, no test, no discussion in the world that is going to tell you this... you have to do it yourself.

I've been training hard for almost 28 years and I've tried all kinds of different routines and they ALL worked. High volume, low volume, whatever. Someone earlier was talking about peroidized training or something... not trying to be an ass, but you actually needed a study to tell you to train a little lighter with higher reps when you were tired and heavier when you were feeling good? Whatever happened to instinct? Your own body is the most highly tuned, sensitive instrument in the world... listen to it and make your own judgement.

Good luck with the workouts!

ronnie and the other pros dont put that much thought into their training, they pay others to do it for them, (chad, haney, dave palumbo, chris acteo, victor conte) to name a few... the body is complex man, the more you know the better off you are...

no you dont need a study to tell you to change training styles, aesop posted it for others to reference, so they can understand it better... ( you could probably benifit from reading a few)

train hard eat big is not it bro! you are extremly undereducated if you think that is all there is to bodybuilding...

if this is your approach to training i hate to see what your thougths on aas are......

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Someone dug this post up from october off last year, I won't mention any names, okay mack? My intension was to discuss what exactly causes DOMS and whether you should train through it or not. So either someone pulled me off on a tangent or I myself went off.

I have always listened to my body when comes to training but I don't believe you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. The more you know, the more you grow. Sounds simple but in truth, what "you know" may be a lot less than you think. There's still a lot out there we don't know. Studies and comparitive analysis and deduction can lead us to some strange conclusions which may or may not be supported in reality.

When I started this thread, I had been lifting for strength for a long time. I never did any periodization or anything like that. I used to lift with 3 other crazy bastards. One dude relocated so it's down to us now. We tailor our workouts based on the way we feel on a particular day. We just use squats, deads, bench, as our base and throw in bent-over rows, military press, inclines, dumbell presses, etc. We know if it's a leg day, a back day, a chest and shoulders day but that's all. All I know is that we are all getting a lot stronger. Bigger also but not underwear-model bigger. I don't think any of us would look good in panties. I do the most to look good and be healthy (cleaner diet, some cardio once a week, and sprints). They call me pretty boy, ask me if I'm going to wear a dress next time, etc. It doesn't bother me. But trying to look good? My strength has suffered from it. I haven't kept up at their pace of increase. I think I'll easily tip over 250 this year but then I'll start cleaning up. Last year I hit 240. But then lost 30lbs going off for all that time. I just don't think my body wants to be over 210lbs naturally but who knows. I'm only 5'9. I stil lthink I have some growing left in me.

Anyway, I've already gone way off again. The topic is DOMS. Not training methods. I don't know what you call my routine which is why when someone asks I just say "The one that works for me that day."

 

[oldfella]

OUCH, I'll address the DOMS.........then we'll talk about your pink panties . I agree that DOMS is a result of micrtrauma in the muscle, in practice and most research will say that a muscle has uncanny repair abilities. In many cases it can be trained 48hrs later. Now is it still sore, probably. Has it been fully repaired to the point of being able to be trained again, again the answer will be probably (if enhanced then yes). I'm sure were going to get all the scientific answers to this one shortly, and I'm sure I will get detracters here about what I am saying. But as long as the muscle has been allowed enough time to heal after microtrauma (tearing) it can be trained again even though it may still be a little sore. This is why I do train the muscle only once a week. I am older and the repair process, at least I'm convinced, takes a little longer. But I have not sustained any form of overtraining in many years now and can put up consistant workouts. Do you have to get sore to grow?..........I believe the answer here is NO. There is no real problem with training another body part like shoulders if your triceps are sore, or back if your biceps are sore. The reason is they only become supporting cast to the star of the workout. I still say to keep muscle in a bit of a growth (adaptation) phase you need to change up your training more frequently. This is most likely to bring on DOMS at every workout. Will it mean more muscle growth......I would think so....we are talking about adaptation, that is the aim of training, adapting means growing and getting stronger. We then need greater stimulation of more fibres to get more growth. Now about those pink panties........ Oh sorry Ouch, we need a different thread for that......we need to adress DOMS with this one not your choice of undergarments........Cheers brother!

 

[OuchThatHurts]

hahahaha... i just said panties.... the whole pink thing? well, where's your mind at?!? you sick bastard! LMAO

 

[rch]

ronnie and the other pros dont put that much thought into their training, they pay others to do it for them, (chad, haney, dave palumbo, chris acteo, victor conte) to name a few... the body is complex man, the more you know the better off you are...

no you dont need a study to tell you to change training styles, aesop posted it for others to reference, so they can understand it better... ( you could probably benifit from reading a few)

train hard eat big is not it bro! you are extremly undereducated if you think that is all there is to bodybuilding...

if this is your approach to training i hate to see what your thougths on aas are......

KM2000,

I hear what you're saying and of course I've over simplified to make my point, but I still believe that it's much LESS complicated than most people seem to want to make it.

By the way, Ronnie and the other pros use the "gurus" more for diet and drug programs than training. Dieting for competition is obviously much more complicated.

You seem a little put off... my post wasn't intended as derogatory, but you always seem to hear little guys in the gym talking about the latest program and the "new study" that will change everything. Meanwhile, the big guy in the corner is just banging away with the same kind of training that guys have been doing for years and years and getting huge from.

I've read plenty of articles and studies... I'm always curious and interested, but I still usually come away thinking "so what?" For the most part, the biggest guys in the world are still training pretty much the same way we have been for the last 30 years.

Chemistry has obviously changed, as has dieting & prepping for competition, but the basics of getting big muscles is still pretty simple in my view. I like it that way... but believe me... I'm certainly not a simpleton.

To each their own...

Sorry for taking the thread off tangent... back to DOMS!

 

[aesop]

KM2000,

I hear what you're saying and of course I've over simplified to make my point, but I still believe that it's much LESS complicated than most people seem to want to make it.

By the way, Ronnie and the other pros use the "gurus" more for diet and drug programs than training. Dieting for competition is obviously much more complicated.

You seem a little put off... my post wasn't intended as derogatory, but you always seem to hear little guys in the gym talking about the latest program and the "new study" that will change everything. Meanwhile, the big guy in the corner is just banging away with the same kind of training that guys have been doing for years and years and getting huge from.

I've read plenty of articles and studies... I'm always curious and interested, but I still usually come away thinking "so what?" For the most part, the biggest guys in the world are still training pretty much the same way we have been for the last 30 years.

Chemistry has obviously changed, as has dieting & prepping for competition, but the basics of getting big muscles is still pretty simple in my view. I like it that way... but believe me... I'm certainly not a simpleton.

To each their own...

Sorry for taking the thread off tangent... back to DOMS!

As crazy as it sounds some people are intelligent, the human body and exercise performance fascinates them. These people like to know why something works. These people don't go through life simply being told what works/or why things are the way they, but they actually find out and come to know why something works so they can deduce their own conclusions and possibly come up with advancements in trainining and supplementation or whatever field they happen to be in. Anybody can recite somebody elses knowledge, but some people want to be the person who's knowledge is recited.

"Train hard, eat big, get big." Oh shit, I knew I shouldn't have studied exercise phsyiology, thats all I needed to know. Next time an athlete or bber asks me for advice I will just tell them to eat a lot and train hard. Brilliant!

 

[rch]

I'd rather not get into a pissing match here because despite what you may think, I do have respect for your and others opinions here on this thread. I would hope that you would grant me the same respect and not call into question my intelligence. Hopefully that is not what you were implying by your comments. That being said...

Roger Clemens doesn't need to know what kinetic forces are being put into play when he throws a fastball... Ronnie Coleman doesn't need to know the kinesiolgy behind a bicep curl to make it effective for him. Is it interesting? Yes, of course. Is it helpful in some cases to know then science behind things? Yes, of course. I am in no way against scientific experimentation and study and I think it's great that you and others are so facinated by it.

The main thrust of my post was to keep people (mostly newbies) from getting caught up in over-analysis to the point of inaction. I've seen it dozens of times with inexperienced trainers... they keep changing programs and searching for the "secret" that will propel them to spectacular gains.

Kudos to Ouch for examining his training, but I wouldn't want to see him not try some particular type of training method just because someone told him about a scientific study that contradicts what he would like to try. I still say there is no substitute for personal experience and listening to the signals from your own body.

Just to get back to the topic at hand, I agree with Old Fella regarding training when you're still sore. A little soreness is ok, but if there is still significant soreness you should wait another day or two to recouperate. Again, listen to your body and use your instinct. Sometimes things will turn out to be counterintuitive, but most times they will not. Your own mind is the most advanced computer on the planet... trust it.

Just my 2 cents.