• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
1-SWEDISH-PEPTIDE-CO
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Dextrose, Karbolyn or Vitargo after Insulin?

You should NOT base your carb intake on your insulin dose, which is what guys did for years and is the WRONG way to look at it. Consuming the smallest amount of carbs required to cover your insulin dose is a good way to KILL your gains. Now, pre-contest is a different story, as fat loss is the priority, but when it comes to off-season mass-building, consuming only enough carbs to cover your insulin dose is going to be horribly insufficient in almost all cases.

Think about it. The average off-season bodybuilder will consume between 400-800 grams of carbs per day, and with 1/3rd to 1/2 of his daily carbs consumed during the training window (the training window ranges from the start of training until a few hours afterward). That is a lot of carbs--between 133 to 500 grams.

Not a single bodybuilder who requires 400-800 grams of carbs per day is going to be able to maximize recovery and growth by consuming only 50-75 grams of carbs during the training window. Yet, I see guys doing it all the time--because they are trying to match their carb intake to their insulin dose. They don't want to consume one more gram than is necessary to cover their 10 IU, or 15 IU, or whatever it is. That is idiotic. Why consume an insufficient amount of carbs just because you chose to use 10 IU, or 15 IU of insulin?

So, rather than basing your carb intake on your insulin dose, you should base your insulin dose on your carb intake. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean you should take as much insulin as you possibly can without going hypo, but it does mean your carb intake should be optimized first, after which you are free to determine your insulin dose.

Lots of guys will use 10-15 IU of Humulin R pre-training, but with optimal carb intake being so board, using some predetermined ratio is completely freaking senseless!!!!

The only time you should use a predetermined ratio is when fat loss is the priority and you have progressed far enough in your diet to where your carb intake is low. For example, if someone is dieting hard and only eating 150 grams of carb per day, they might only be consuming 50-100 grams of carbs during the training window. Therefore, they will need to make sure their slin dose is not too high for their carb intake. This is the only time ratios come into play.

In the off-season, when trying to grow, ratios have no place, as basically everyone will be consuming way more than enough carbs to cover their slin dose. As another example, if someone is consuming 300 grams of carbs during the off-season training window and using Humulin R, they could chose to use 10 IU, 20 IU, 30 IU, etc (Note: there are numerous factors which determine optimal dose). Regardless of which dose they select, their carb intake will still be high enough to cover it (assuming they are spreading their carbs out throughout the entire window, like they should be).

This means ratios could be all over the place from one person to the next. You could have 3 guys, all of whom consume 300 grams of carbs during the training window, but one guy might use 10 IU of slin, another 20 IU, and another 30 IU. Their ratios would be 30:1, 15:1, and 10:1, respectively, but all of them would still be consuming the correct amount of carbs to maximize recovery and growth. The only variable is how much slin they chose to use, which again, was completely independent of their carb intake.

This shows why ratios don't mean shit. The bodybuilder's carb intake is predetermined. Just because he uses a certain insulin dose, it doesn't mean he should start changing his carb intake because his carb intake was determined based on his metabolic needs, while his slin dose was based on a variety of factors, such as insulin sensitivity, level of comfort, etc.

Of course, all this is assuming that the bodybuilder never uses more insulin than his carb intake can handle. To that I respond by saying--an off-season bodybuilder should NEVER NEED to use more insulin that what his carb intake can handle. Off-season carb intake is already so high that using an insulin dose beyond that would be completely unnecessary.




Note: All of this is based on the use of regular human insulin (Humulin R/Novolin R) immediately pre-training. RHI stays active the entire training window, so all the carbs a bodybuilder eats during that time (which includes his peri-workout nutrition and his post-workout whole-food meal) will be available to the insulin.

If using fast-acting insulin pre-training, everything changes, as its peak activity is only a couple hours--maybe 3. While Humlin will release over 5-6 hours, giving the bodybuilder plenty of time to consume his 1/3rd to 1/2 of his daily carbs, but this is not the case with fast-acting insulins. A bodybuilder would need to consume all his carbs within the short time it is active, and very few bodybuilders should be eating that many carbs within just a couple hour period. The bodybuilder would be so bloated during training from all the carbs, he couldn't even train properly. For this reason, fast-acting insulin doses are typically much lower--about 50% of a Humulin R/ Novolin r dose.
Awesome, this post really clears things up for me. Just to reiterate and make sure I'm 100% understanding your throats theories, using humalog first thing in the morning you can get away with a minimum of 7-10g carbs per iu total over the active time of the insulin (about four hours). But less is not necessarily better when it comes to carb intake as it will restrict gains possibly. Im asking so many questions about this because I stay low carb pretty much year round... The bulk of my daily carbs comes during the two hour eating/drinking window when the slin is active. Thanks for your help!

roast
 
Thanks for posting Mike, helps really clear everything up. Did you change the Humilin Protocol to taking it immediately pre training? Thats what the post said...

I was doing it 45 minutes pre training, with the first shake 20 minutes pre training, like the old protocol said. Should i switch to slin immediately pre? I use humilin r.

Thanks
 
Karbolyn is actually the best out of all of them

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
Karbolyn is actually the best out of all of them

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Personally I didn't like it, but I used it with DES, not with slin. Im assuming if I didn't like it pre I wouldn't like it intra. But if it works for you that's great...
 
Personally I didn't like it, but I used it with DES, not with slin. Im assuming if I didn't like it pre I wouldn't like it intra. But if it works for you that's great...

I honestly can't tell the difference between karbolyn and glycofuse (the two HBCD's I switch between based on sales/clearouts etc)
 
Personally I didn't like it, but I used it with DES, not with slin. Im assuming if I didn't like it pre I wouldn't like it intra. But if it works for you that's great...
I use it for carbloading i dont use insulin
Im using vitargo at the moment i like these for carb sources i found using sugary drink intra actually bloated me but i dont get it from these modified starches , i do use a food partitioner which probably has a big effect on the carb source i love food partitioners absoljtely brillia t products

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
I use it for carbloading i dont use insulin
Im using vitargo at the moment i like these for carb sources i found using sugary drink intra actually bloated me but i dont get it from these modified starches , i do use a food partitioner which probably has a big effect on the carb source i love food partitioners absoljtely brillia t products

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Which partitioner do you use?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
 
I'll be grabbing some GDA from TN once i start my bulk.

Would taking metformin and GDA be overkill?

Bump for Mike Arnold responses! :cool:
 
Dextrose i puke soon after.

HBCD and oats ground into powder (coffee grinder) works for me
Dextrose makes you puke but ground oats you have no issue with and combine with HBCD? From an osmolarity perspective, that makes literally no sense at all. Dextrose should also require less digestion and sit in the gut shorter. Perhaps it's worked, but from a scientific perspective, and looking at how something like HBCD or Dextrose is absorbed compared to ground oats, this is just ass backwards.

If you're relying on ground oats you might as well combine it with any other carb source you like and save money on the HBCD, you're kind of missing the point of spending a premium on these HBCD aren't you?
 
I honestly can't tell the difference between karbolyn and glycofuse (the two HBCD's I switch between based on sales/clearouts etc)

I didnt think Karbolyn was an actual HBCD? I bet it would have worked better for me if I had diluted the Karbolyn more. There was a lot of talk on here about how HBCD (glycol fuse and Intra MD) needed to be diluted a lot, so i diluted it more. When i used Karbolyn i didnt dilute it as much, and wasnt using it intra i was using it pre. So i would just slam it… Thats prob why it didnt work as well.

I use it for carbloading i dont use insulin
Im using vitargo at the moment i like these for carb sources i found using sugary drink intra actually bloated me but i dont get it from these modified starches , i do use a food partitioner which probably has a big effect on the carb source i love food partitioners absoljtely brillia t products

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Whatever works. I got intra md for during and Karbolic for after. Just to save a little money, karbolic is 50g carbs per serving. After i train I'm not as worried about bloat.
 
I'm pretty sure karbolyn has no hbcd it's just something completely different.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
 
I'm pretty sure karbolyn has no hbcd it's just something completely different.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

Yep im sure too just dont like to seem like a know it all.... Some guys jump down peoples throats on here over stupid shit.
 
Mmmm Karbolyn has always been my favorite Intra carb. Throw 25g CHOC whey, 5 grams glutamine and 5 grams Creatine and you'll be right where you need to be[emoji41]
 
So I'm starting to really learn how my body reacts to slin and certain carbs.

Typically i take 10iu fasted am then go to gym with intra drink (hbcd plus tons of other stuff) in hand. Today instead I had 1 bag of cream of wheat plus a scoop of whey at 7 am.

8am 10iu of Humalog then down my pre-workout pump mix. Started sipping intra in car in gym parking lot at 815am.

I always notice the first half of my workout I'll have a groggy feeling then 2nd half the carbs kick in and I feel ok. So I may start sipping sooner.

Workout ends at 10am. 10:20 am I drink 90gms of hydro whey in water.

I'm noticing Humalog still kicks in pretty strong.. after 11am today felt low blood sugar. So checked my blood glucose it was 48. Checked it again this time getting blood from my bicep and not finger and it was 66. Not sure why it varied so much. Popped a 4gm dextrose pill and felt as if I was normalizing within minutes.

So looks like 3 hours post slin shot it's still kicking in pretty hard.

Is this normal with Humalog? Maybe I'll add some carbs to my hydro drink. I like HBCD intra but find Karbolyn is better for me when downing a shake real fast and not worrying about being on the bowl right after.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
 
So I'm starting to really learn how my body reacts to slin and certain carbs.

Typically i take 10iu fasted am then go to gym with intra drink (hbcd plus tons of other stuff) in hand. Today instead I had 1 bag of cream of wheat plus a scoop of whey at 7 am.

8am 10iu of Humalog then down my pre-workout pump mix. Started sipping intra in car in gym parking lot at 815am.

I always notice the first half of my workout I'll have a groggy feeling then 2nd half the carbs kick in and I feel ok. So I may start sipping sooner.

Workout ends at 10am. 10:20 am I drink 90gms of hydro whey in water.

I'm noticing Humalog still kicks in pretty strong.. after 11am today felt low blood sugar. So checked my blood glucose it was 48. Checked it again this time getting blood from my bicep and not finger and it was 66. Not sure why it varied so much. Popped a 4gm dextrose pill and felt as if I was normalizing within minutes.

So looks like 3 hours post slin shot it's still kicking in pretty hard.

Is this normal with Humalog? Maybe I'll add some carbs to my hydro drink. I like HBCD intra but find Karbolyn is better for me when downing a shake real fast and not worrying about being on the bowl right after.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

It makes sense, log is active for 3 hours, so you should spread the carbs out a little more.

John Meadows uses cream of rice pre, maybe try that as it will digest faster (faster than cream of wheat) and you might not be groggy when you get to the gym. You usually go faster, so i am guessing that you felt groggy because you had food in your stomach, just a guess though... I cant eat anything within an hour of going to the gym, i usually wait 90 minutes to 2 hours before i go. However Cream of Rice is the one thing that i can eat 60 minutes before and it not effect me, either that or a banana and a whey shake....
 
How come so many guys use carb powders with slin? I have always been told by guys besides intra workout drink that the rest should just come from normal food. I have always done my slin like this and so far has worked well for me:
Pre workout 5iu Log along with 20g BCAA's and a rice krispies treat
Intra workout shake 2 scoops of intra MD
Post workout 5iu Log 30g whey protein and 2 packs of oatmeal (apple cinnamon)
Then an hour later back to my normal meal schedule. I might be wrong but this has worked well for me so far.
 
It makes sense, log is active for 3 hours, so you should spread the carbs out a little more.

John Meadows uses cream of rice pre, maybe try that as it will digest faster (faster than cream of wheat) and you might not be groggy when you get to the gym. You usually go faster, so i am guessing that you felt groggy because you had food in your stomach, just a guess though... I cant eat anything within an hour of going to the gym, i usually wait 90 minutes to 2 hours before i go. However Cream of Rice is the one thing that i can eat 60 minutes before and it not effect me, either that or a banana and a whey shake....

Yeah maybe I will try the cream of rice, I like cream of wheat because is zero fat, 30 grams of carbs and a light fine powder is unreal how small volume it is.

True I love training fasted so maybe I will switch back and then try different methods.

Interesting thing is I can't mimic the insane pump I had last week (1st day using slin) when I did something a little different. 2iu Log am w/2 bags of oatmeal. 1pm 5iu log plus Intra. Sickest pumps ever. Maybe cause 1st time trying insulin or because I had a few meals in me. That's why I wanted a little food in me this morning.

I never workout in the afternoon but because of an unavoidable meeting tomorrow morning I may do just that. Thinking of I should attempt to mimic the 2iu/5iu routine I did last week. But not sure.
 
How come so many guys use carb powders with slin? I have always been told by guys besides intra workout drink that the rest should just come from normal food. I have always done my slin like this and so far has worked well for me:
Pre workout 5iu Log along with 20g BCAA's and a rice krispies treat
Intra workout shake 2 scoops of intra MD
Post workout 5iu Log 30g whey protein and 2 packs of oatmeal (apple cinnamon)
Then an hour later back to my normal meal schedule. I might be wrong but this has worked well for me so far.

It depends how long you work out for. If you train for 2 hours you will need carbs during training, and most guys arent going to eat at the gym so we just make a bigger intra shake than you do. Also carb powders are easier for most guys to digest than food, so around workout time thats good.

If I did slin not around my workout time I would eat food, since i do it pre i drink carb drinks. But i totally understand what you are saying, a lot of times my last carb intake while the slin is active is food, because i use humilin r, so im home from training before the slin is out of my system.
 

Staff online

  • pesty4077
    Moderator/ Featured Member / Kilo Klub

Forum statistics

Total page views
559,239,108
Threads
136,053
Messages
2,777,318
Members
160,429
Latest member
Itisisaysme510
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top