DHT + Estrogen, No test

[Zarati]

Has anyone here tried the dbol + primo cycle from Arnold's era?

Some of those guys never did testosterone.

I'm trying to understand the science behind how it worked so great for them, they didn't take AIs, tamox etc. Didn't have bloated faces, no gynos, etc

 

[jeroendebleser]

Arnold in fact did have a bloated face in Pumping Iron for instance.

Less outspoken than the current bodybuilders yes but still pretty apparent nonetheless.

You also forgot Deca which they were also all big on.

Testosterone...who knows if they used it or not? If you ask me personally: I think they did as they do now and that is to take everything that could give them an edge so...

 

[5Noles]

With a low body fat %, gyno surgery & a little dht, many bodybuilders can run high doses of testosterone without any AI.

 

[Lilleo187]

I'm running deca, tren, mast, and no test right now. Been wanting to try it out.

 

[headtrainer]

With a low body fat %, gyno surgery & a little dht, many bodybuilders can run high doses of testosterone without any AI.

I can run 2 grams of testosterone without any antie-es. I must not aromatize much.

 

[luki7788]

No test cycles are pointless and I don't know when people will finally understand that estrogen is necessary for the most important processes that cause muscle growth

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

No test cycles are pointless and I don't know when people will finally understand that estrogen is necessary for the most important processes that cause muscle growth

Is there a range estradiol you would suggest targeting if growth is the goal?

 

[luki7788]

Is there a range estradiol you would suggest targeting if growth is the goal?

in my opinion, it is 40-60
optimally, some like it above even 100

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

in my opinion, it is 40-60
optimally, some like it above even 100

The higher your test level = higher estrogen even or is it same 40-60 no matter on 750mg test or 2,000mg?

 

[luki7788]

The higher your test level = higher estrogen even or is it same 40-60 no matter on 750mg test or 2,000mg?

I note at the beginning that this is only my opinion and should not be treated as the only correct one - in my opinion, 40-60 is the optimal level for maximizing, among others, hgh to igf conversion in the liver and higher estrogen values already bring side effects such as water retention, hypertension, back pumps that prevent good workouts. So I believe that 40-60 during the mass building period will be optimal for most people

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

I note at the beginning that this is only my opinion and should not be treated as the only correct one - in my opinion, 40-60 is the optimal level for maximizing, among others, hgh to igf conversion in the liver and higher estrogen values already bring side effects such as water retention, hypertension, back pumps that prevent good workouts. So I believe that 40-60 during the mass building period will be optimal for most people

Thank you.

 

[totalrecomp]

I can see people not wanting to go all out with test but from a basic physiological stand point I see zero reason to not have 50-100mg/week in there. IMO nothing 100% substitutes for testosterone in every bodily function. An example I can give is trestolone. Studied as a replacement/birth control method the research indicates it was a suitable sub for test but I can tell you from personal experience that all the benefits of it were NOT there when I was sub 20ng/dl total test(was off HRT at the time.) Now that I am on trt trestolone performs all the magic that most people claim it does. IMO a basic level of test should always be present in the human body.

 

[juggy38]

I can see people not wanting to go all out with test but from a basic physiological stand point I see zero reason to not have 50-100mg/week in there. IMO nothing 100% substitutes for testosterone in every bodily function. An example I can give is trestolone. Studied as a replacement/birth control method the research indicates it was a suitable sub for test but I can tell you from personal experience that all the benefits of it were NOT there when I was sub 20ng/dl total test(was off HRT at the time.) Now that I am on trt trestolone performs all the magic that most people claim it does. IMO a basic level of test should always be present in the human body.

I tried trest+EQ without Any test and I didn’t feel good.

Back on 150mg test, feeling much better

 

[btails]

I note at the beginning that this is only my opinion and should not be treated as the only correct one - in my opinion, 40-60 is the optimal level for maximizing, among others, hgh to igf conversion in the liver and higher estrogen values already bring side effects such as water retention, hypertension, back pumps that prevent good workouts. So I believe that 40-60 during the mass building period will be optimal for most people

Last offseason I wasn't using an anti e.. then had a video chat with someone and it wasn't till then I noticed my face looked like a little fat kid.

Got bloodwork, estrogen was 550 lol (obviously through in an ai after that!)

 

[Biogenix]

HATE the idea myself but NOT the first time hearing this. I actually met just 1 mass monster (old school Pro) in my day who absolutely HATED TEST lived on TREN and HGH , granted he walked around looking a waiting heart attack beat red with a bpm of wtf! But he was big I guess lol..

I can see people not wanting to go all out with test but from a basic physiological stand point I see zero reason to not have 50-100mg/week in there. IMO nothing 100% substitutes for testosterone in every bodily function. An example I can give is trestolone. Studied as a replacement/birth control method the research indicates it was a suitable sub for test but I can tell you from personal experience that all the benefits of it were NOT there when I was sub 20ng/dl total test(was off HRT at the time.) Now that I am on trt trestolone performs all the magic that most people claim it does. IMO a basic level of test should always be present in the human body.

I Lean towards the above. A Baseline serves me well but then again I'm not chasing sheer size.

BIOGENIX

 

[headtrainer]

No test cycles are pointless and I don't know when people will finally understand that estrogen is necessary for the most important processes that cause muscle growth

Truth!

 

[headtrainer]

I can see people not wanting to go all out with test but from a basic physiological stand point I see zero reason to not have 50-100mg/week in there. IMO nothing 100% substitutes for testosterone in every bodily function. An example I can give is trestolone. Studied as a replacement/birth control method the research indicates it was a suitable sub for test but I can tell you from personal experience that all the benefits of it were NOT there when I was sub 20ng/dl total test(was off HRT at the time.) Now that I am on trt trestolone performs all the magic that most people claim it does. IMO a basic level of test should always be present in the human body.

I agree!

 

[headtrainer]

Arnold in fact did have a bloated face in Pumping Iron for instance.

Less outspoken than the current bodybuilders yes but still pretty apparent nonetheless.

You also forgot Deca which they were also all big on.

Testosterone...who knows if they used it or not? If you ask me personally: I think they did as they do now and that is to take everything that could give them an edge so...

Arnold used a lot of dbol which also Aromatasizes to estrogen.

 

[headtrainer]

Has anyone here tried the dbol + primo cycle from Arnold's era?

Some of those guys never did testosterone.

I'm trying to understand the science behind how it worked so great for them, they didn't take AIs, tamox etc. Didn't have bloated faces, no gynos, etc

They didn’t have excessively bloated faces in the Arnold era for the most part because they didn’t allow themselves to gain a lot of body fat in the off-season. It has nothing to do with the specific hormones they used IMO.

 

[FrancisK]

Has anyone here tried the dbol + primo cycle from Arnold's era?

Some of those guys never did testosterone.

I'm trying to understand the science behind how it worked so great for them, they didn't take AIs, tamox etc. Didn't have bloated faces, no gynos, etc

Insulin and GH changed everything that’s all it is, there isn’t some long lost secret as to why guys looked more aesthetically pleasing back then and why they are giant deformed mounds of muscle now.