Diet Help: Keto vs. Low Carb and Carb Timing

[ironceltic12]

Didn't know even look to see that berberine is metformin, my bad. Yes ive heard it's great stuff

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[Steve123]

Hey guys. I'm looking to lean out a little bit in the next 30 days and trying to figure out my diet. I'm 5'9 205-210 and currently at a true 9%. I have 6 abs showing, but want to get very lean because it seems that once I get down to a certain body fat I usually stay there. I will be using only "natural" supplements.

I started a keto diet (think carb nite style) last week and got so constipated that I had to stop. This is strange because I have had good success with keto diets before, but I don't want this to happen again so I'm thinking of doing a very low carb diet (100 g below including trace carbs) instead. I'm very carb sensitive, so for me going keto is the best way to lose fat.

My diet will be the typical 5-6 meals per day with fats and protein only except for 2/3 meals around (before, during, and after) my workout. On non workout days, I will go keto. And I don't count calories. From my experience, nutrient timing has always been far more beneficial to me than counting calories.

So my questions concern how to make the non keto but low carb diet work. I can't decide where I want to place the carbs. I train at night.

1st Question: Should I put my carbs during and after my workout or before and during my workout? I'm leaning toward the former.

2nd Question: The only supplements I'm using for fat loss are an ECA stack and yohimbine. Is there anything else that would be beneficial aside from clen, t3, or dnp?

3rd Question: Do you think that using berberine or metformin with my carbs will essentially make up for the fact that I'm not going completely keto? Berberine has been very powerful for me in the past, but I've never used it on a cut.

Last Question: How often should I employ a cheat meal? I was leaning toward once a week.

Thanks guys and sorry for the book.

I'm not really a big fan of Keto diets. I see it as the Carpet Bombing of diets. Yeah, you kill the fat but with lots of collateral damage. You don't really need to be in Ketosis to burn body fat. Most diets that I've followed have you kind of riding the keto threshold and maybe transiently going in and coming out.

The only thing I would tell you is that Carb timing is highly individual. Go by feel and be flexible with it. If you're holding muscle pretty good with a weekly carb up, no need to carb up more frequently. However, if a single carb up each week is beginning to effect your workouts, if you're flat to the point of having no muscle pump at all, if your stregnth and energy suffer, a more frequent re-feed might help you out.

Usually when I hear people say they are "carb sensative" it's really that they are eating too much. Not saying that's you. If you have a healthy Metabolism, you should not react negatively to carbohydrates anymore so than any other macro. Mileage varries though.

EC stack is pretty good. Clen can help. Unless you're on a heavy dose of gear, I would stay away from T3, Esspcially on a low carb diet.

As for timing. Whatever carbs you are eating should be pre and post weight training. Other than that, nutrient timing doesn't matter. 100g of carbs is 100g of carbs (and 400 calories). It doesn't matter if you eat them in the middle of the night.

Think about it. If we could keep fat on humans at a calorie deficit by virtue of nutrient timing, we owe the community a huge hats-off; because, there will be a noble peace prize coming soon for solving the problem of world hunger.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Didn't know even look to see that berberine is metformin, my bad. Yes ive heard it's great stuff

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No they are completely different. They just do similar things.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

I'm not really a big fan of Keto diets. I see it as the Carpet Bombing of diets. Yeah, you kill the fat but with lots of collateral damage. You don't really need to be in Ketosis to burn body fat. Most diets that I've followed have you kind of riding the keto threshold and maybe transiently going in and coming out.

The only thing I would tell you is that Carb timing is highly individual. Go by feel and be flexible with it. If you're holding muscle pretty good with a weekly carb up, no need to carb up more frequently. However, if a single carb up each week is beginning to effect your workouts, if you're flat to the point of having no muscle pump at all, if your stregnth and energy suffer, a more frequent re-feed might help you out.

Usually when I hear people say they are "carb sensative" it's really that they are eating too much. Not saying that's you. If you have a healthy Metabolism, you should not react negatively to carbohydrates anymore so than any other macro. Mileage varries though.

EC stack is pretty good. Clen can help. Unless you're on a heavy dose of gear, I would stay away from T3, Esspcially on a low carb diet.

As for timing. Whatever carbs you are eating should be pre and post weight training. Other than that, nutrient timing doesn't matter. 100g of carbs is 100g of carbs (and 400 calories). It doesn't matter if you eat them in the middle of the night.

Think about it. If we could keep fat on humans at a calorie deficit by virtue of nutrient timing, we owe the community a huge hats-off; because, there will be a noble peace prize coming soon for solving the problem of world hunger.

Thanks for the help. Yeah I probably over used the term carb sensitive. I'm not really that carb sensitive, just more-so than others. I mean I am trying to get to 7% with this diet so I can't be too "carb sensitive." It would be more accurate to say that I'm at my best in appearance and strength with a low-moderate carb, higher fat diet.

For the fat burners, I think I'm just going to stick to ECA and yohimbine hcl.

As for the timing/days of carbs and my strength and fullness, I know my body well enough to go completely on feel.

 

[james caan]

Thanks so much for the lengthy reply man!

How can you "tell" that you are in ketosis? Like IK you are after a couple days of no carbing, but you mentioned that you knew you were in keto two days faster than without the supp you mentioned?

Also, what is MCT?

And yeah dude constipation sucks! I'm scared of it now LOL.

well there are ways to measure the amount of ketones in your urine (ketostix). also you can use a glucose meter, some claim it is a more accurate way of doing so. but honestly after some time of being on this diet, you just know when you are in ketosis...its hard for me to explain exactly how, but you just know. when im in full ketosis, i tend to sweat a lot during my sleep time..i wake up with my nack, lower back, and forehead sweaty. again not that i am saying this will happen to you, but it does with me. i also get a really strong metallic flavor in my mouth, and trust me you wont miss that at all! another thing that happens, my mouth gets dry, and my lips seem to get chapped.
MCT (medium chain triglycerides) heres some info about MCT's

Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCTs) | Nutrition Review

any way, its said that using coconut oil for example, helps establish ketosis much faster, but im not sure if it does/does not. but then again coconut oil is healthy for you, so why not use it regardless. and with regards to constipation, make sure you get a fiber supplement (i use metamucil )...it is key to avoiding this very uncomfortable side effect.

also although i dont think this has been completely proven or debunked, it has been said that the use of caffeine lessens/prevents ketosis. again im not sure how accurate/inaccurate this is, but it my be a good thing to look into if you are going the ECA route.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

well there are ways to measure the amount of ketones in your urine (ketostix). also you can use a glucose meter, some claim it is a more accurate way of doing so. but honestly after some time of being on this diet, you just know when you are in ketosis...its hard for me to explain exactly how, but you just know. when im in full ketosis, i tend to sweat a lot during my sleep time..i wake up with my nack, lower back, and forehead sweaty. again not that i am saying this will happen to you, but it does with me. i also get a really strong metallic flavor in my mouth, and trust me you wont miss that at all! another thing that happens, my mouth gets dry, and my lips seem to get chapped.
MCT (medium chain triglycerides) heres some info about MCT's

Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCTs) | Nutrition Review

any way, its said that using coconut oil for example, helps establish ketosis much faster, but im not sure if it does/does not. but then again coconut oil is healthy for you, so why not use it regardless. and with regards to constipation, make sure you get a fiber supplement (i use metamucil )...it is key to avoiding this very uncomfortable side effect.

also although i dont think this has been completely proven or debunked, it has been said that the use of caffeine lessens/prevents ketosis. again im not sure how accurate/inaccurate this is, but it my be a good thing to look into if you are going the ECA route.

Thank you! you have been very helpful! What do you use coconut oil with - ie just cooking or do you eat foods with it in it (I'm not aware of many)?

And caffeine, effedrine, ect... anything that burns fat brings you out of ketosis a little because it mobilizes fat stores into the blood (LOL they don't just magically disappear) which in tern causes an insulin spike.

 

[evser]

Thank you! you have been very helpful! What do you use coconut oil with - ie just cooking or do you eat foods with it in it (I'm not aware of many)?

And caffeine, effedrine, ect... anything that burns fat brings you out of ketosis a little because it mobilizes fat stores into the blood (LOL they don't just magically disappear) which in tern causes an insulin spike.

coconut oil is usually used to cook meat/veggies/eggs etc. Has a high smoke point so doesn't go rancid at high frying temperatures. Its really damn delicious though so u can really just put it on anything. my girlfriend puts a spoon in her coffee every morning.

And I don't think caffeine has any effect on ketosis I use it all the time and measure between 1.5-4 mols on ketosticks so pretty deep ketosis. also I don't think fatty acids entering your blood would have much if any effect on insulin. when fat is broken down into its components 90% fatty acids and 10% glycerol, only the glycerol can be converted into glucose affecting insulin.

 

[smackthatAAS]

No they are completely different. They just do similar things.

What dose berberine do you take?

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

coconut oil is usually used to cook meat/veggies/eggs etc. Has a high smoke point so doesn't go rancid at high frying temperatures. Its really damn delicious though so u can really just put it on anything. my girlfriend puts a spoon in her coffee every morning.

And I don't think caffeine has any effect on ketosis I use it all the time and measure between 1.5-4 mols on ketosticks so pretty deep ketosis. also I don't think fatty acids entering your blood would have much if any effect on insulin. when fat is broken down into its components 90% fatty acids and 10% glycerol, only the glycerol can be converted into glucose affecting insulin.

If there is an affect, it is minor (10% like you sited).

On a side, my gf has abs and eats about 100g of carbs more than me each day and weighs under 100 lbs. Irritating.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

What dose berberine do you take?

It depends on how many carbs I am eating. For a cheat meal, 500 mg along with some other GDA's. With about 50g of carbs usually 250 mg. I find that if I do more than 500mg ed for a couple days straight, I'm so hypoglycemic that its awful. One time, it took 1500g of carbs in a day to pull me out of it. The stuff is incredibly strong.

 

[qwerty_lifter]

But metformin & berberine would have to decrease the insulin spike to nothing? Sorry, havent read the study yet. But has anyone actually done this?

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[NY Muscle]

Hey guys. I'm looking to lean out a little bit in the next 30 days and trying to figure out my diet. I'm 5'9 205-210 and currently at a true 9%. I have 6 abs showing, but want to get very lean because it seems that once I get down to a certain body fat I usually stay there. I will be using only "natural" supplements.

I started a keto diet (think carb nite style) last week and got so constipated that I had to stop. This is strange because I have had good success with keto diets before, but I don't want this to happen again so I'm thinking of doing a very low carb diet (100 g below including trace carbs) instead. I'm very carb sensitive, so for me going keto is the best way to lose fat.

My diet will be the typical 5-6 meals per day with fats and protein only except for 2/3 meals around (before, during, and after) my workout. On non workout days, I will go keto. And I don't count calories. From my experience, nutrient timing has always been far more beneficial to me than counting calories.

So my questions concern how to make the non keto but low carb diet work. I can't decide where I want to place the carbs. I train at night.

1st Question: Should I put my carbs during and after my workout or before and during my workout? I'm leaning toward the former.

2nd Question: The only supplements I'm using for fat loss are an ECA stack and yohimbine. Is there anything else that would be beneficial aside from clen, t3, or dnp?

3rd Question: Do you think that using berberine or metformin with my carbs will essentially make up for the fact that I'm not going completely keto? Berberine has been very powerful for me in the past, but I've never used it on a cut.

Last Question: How often should I employ a cheat meal? I was leaning toward once a week.

Thanks guys and sorry for the book.

Man I fkin miss a true keto diet - cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD). Back in the day when Lyle Macdonald was writing his book I and many others gave him great input that helped him write the book and shared experiences throughout his months of writing the book.

My favorite diet hands down but I have not done it in probably 10 years. I am contemplating it again next year. I have very bad arthristis so not sure going full blown zero carbs and high fats/protein will do with that. Maybe it will help, maybe make it worse.

Funny you mention constipation. The 1st time I did a CKD in the early/mid 90's I had to stop because of the constipation. Then I started buying psyllium caps and various "colon cleanse" type caps and Alflalfa tabs (works wonders) and I was shitting like crazy and turned out to be the best diet ever. My boys and I would go to Seaside NJ (Jersey shore) and I would be doing CKD, eating fat and protein then go to the beach looking even leaner than before the meal. It always puzzled the heck out of my friends.

What you are doing is essentialy a TKD - Targeted Ketogenic Diet which I hated, never really get in ketosis long enough to burn the fat you need. Unless you want to use insulin which I used to on a TKD and even CKD but I really don't recommend it.

As far as Metformin we use to use Tolbutamide instead or sometimes Glipizide but that shit felt just like Insulin and made me go hypo sometimes. Tolbutamide never made me hypo and worked great. These things always helped us to get into ketosis and if memory serves me correctly we only used it on or at the end of carb up days? Sorry been so long since I did a CKD. We used to of course use Alpha Lipoic Acid, back then used to buy it by the KILO and share some with my friends who did CKD and make our own caps, taking like 1200mg each dose to really kick in good.

So bottom line, IMHO I would get back and do the diet the right way, zero carbs (usually works out to 20-30gms of trace carbs anyway) and get the fiber supplements so you can go to the bathroom and lots of GDA's - glucose disposal agents - ALA, Vanadyl sulfate, or concoctions like Glyocobol, Slin Sane etc etc that have other goodies added...

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Man I fkin miss a true keto diet - cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD). Back in the day when Lyle Macdonald was writing his book I and many others gave him great input that helped him write the book and shared experiences throughout his months of writing the book.

My favorite diet hands down but I have not done it in probably 10 years. I am contemplating it again next year. I have very bad arthristis so not sure going full blown zero carbs and high fats/protein will do with that. Maybe it will help, maybe make it worse.

Funny you mention constipation. The 1st time I did a CKD in the early/mid 90's I had to stop because of the constipation. Then I started buying psyllium caps and various "colon cleanse" type caps and Alflalfa tabs (works wonders) and I was shitting like crazy and turned out to be the best diet ever. My boys and I would go to Seaside NJ (Jersey shore) and I would be doing CKD, eating fat and protein then go to the beach looking even leaner than before the meal. It always puzzled the heck out of my friends.

What you are doing is essentialy a TKD - Targeted Ketogenic Diet which I hated, never really get in ketosis long enough to burn the fat you need. Unless you want to use insulin which I used to on a TKD and even CKD but I really don't recommend it.

As far as Metformin we use to use Tolbutamide instead or sometimes Glipizide but that shit felt just like Insulin and made me go hypo sometimes. Tolbutamide never made me hypo and worked great. These things always helped us to get into ketosis and if memory serves me correctly we only used it on or at the end of carb up days? Sorry been so long since I did a CKD. We used to of course use Alpha Lipoic Acid, back then used to buy it by the KILO and share some with my friends who did CKD and make our own caps, taking like 1200mg each dose to really kick in good.

So bottom line, IMHO I would get back and do the diet the right way, zero carbs (usually works out to 20-30gms of trace carbs anyway) and get the fiber supplements so you can go to the bathroom and lots of GDA's - glucose disposal agents - ALA, Vanadyl sulfate, or concoctions like Glyocobol, Slin Sane etc etc that have other goodies added...

That's an awesome reply! Yeah, I have to agree. I always get so lean so fast on a straight keto diet. I don't feel bad either.

Did you use the GDA's while in the keto diet? If so, when and why? And did you go hypo?

Thanks brutha.

 

[Steve123]

Thanks for the help. Yeah I probably over used the term carb sensitive. I'm not really that carb sensitive, just more-so than others. I mean I am trying to get to 7% with this diet so I can't be too "carb sensitive." It would be more accurate to say that I'm at my best in appearance and strength with a low-moderate carb, higher fat diet.

For the fat burners, I think I'm just going to stick to ECA and yohimbine hcl.

As for the timing/days of carbs and my strength and fullness, I know my body well enough to go completely on feel.

YEah, makes sense. Guys that get as lean as you are typically do have that self awareness.

 

[NY Muscle]

That's an awesome reply! Yeah, I have to agree. I always get so lean so fast on a straight keto diet. I don't feel bad either.

Did you use the GDA's while in the keto diet? If so, when and why? And did you go hypo?

Thanks brutha.

I used GDA's only until I hit ketosis then no longer needed. Use them to get into ketosis faster. Also during carb up for the obvious reason with all those carbs. So use them throughout the Carb up then the next day or 2 until you are showing that you are in ketosis on the ketostix.

Never went hypo with over the counter supps no.


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[fstr03svtcobra]

I used GDA's only until I hit ketosis then no longer needed. Use them to get into ketosis faster. Also during carb up for the obvious reason with all those carbs. So use them throughout the Carb up then the next day or 2 until you are showing that you are in ketosis on the ketostix.

Never went hypo with over the counter supps no.


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Thanks for the help! I'm going to pick up some ketostix and cap some na-r-ala that I have and run that with berberine.

To NY Muscle or anyone else who wants to chime in, does anybody have a protocol for PREVENTING constipation on when going keto?

Also, for guys who use Metamucil, does it bloat you like crazy or does that go away eventually?

 

[Utah]

Thanks for the help! I'm going to pick up some ketostix and cap some na-r-ala that I have and run that with berberine.

To NY Muscle or anyone else who wants to chime in, does anybody have a protocol for PREVENTING constipation on when going keto?

Also, for guys who use Metamucil, does it bloat you like crazy or does that go away eventually?

Metamucil may bloat because it has maltodextrin in it. There are much better fiber supplements(health food store is best bet. get a non flavored powder, and mix it in blender with Isolate or bcaa, cinnamon, greens supp, healthy fat, etc for flavor)

In addition for constipation: green veggies with every meal, and try increasing your healthy fats a little. Im not a fan of the shit fat(cheese, bacon, mayo, etc. it wont make you look as good as: salmon, red meat, olive oil, grapeseed oil, coconut oil, avocado, almonds, etc).

I am not usually a keto fan personally. I think it works well for overweight clients. But I have been running keto for 6 wks since my 3rd show of yr, about to do my 4th and I am amazed at what it can do when already lean like you are. I am gunning for an overall that I got shafted on in 08. Cant wait to strip down at weigh in.

 

[fstr03svtcobra]

Metamucil may bloat because it has maltodextrin in it. There are much better fiber supplements(health food store is best bet. get a non flavored powder, and mix it in blender with Isolate or bcaa, cinnamon, greens supp, healthy fat, etc for flavor)

In addition for constipation: green veggies with every meal, and try increasing your healthy fats a little. Im not a fan of the shit fat(cheese, bacon, mayo, etc. it wont make you look as good as: salmon, red meat, olive oil, grapeseed oil, coconut oil, avocado, almonds, etc).

I am not usually a keto fan personally. I think it works well for overweight clients. But I have been running keto for 6 wks since my 3rd show of yr, about to do my 4th and I am amazed at what it can do when already lean like you are. I am gunning for an overall that I got shafted on in 08. Cant wait to strip down at weigh in.

Thanks for the tips on the constipation and metamucil.

Good luck in your show brother. Hope you get the overall!