diff. between eGFR and actual GFR

Fluffy_XL · Dec 12, 2019

Hi there,

often discussed but maybe you guys could give me a brief insight into your own experiences regarding this topic.

Is the eGFR (CKD-EPI) (measured only by blood test) normally higher or lower than the actual GFR (measured by urinalysis) if proteinuria is the case?

How does your Astralagus intake affect this? I could imagine that A. will increase the eGFR (CKD-EPI) but won't do THAT much for your actual GFR. Opinions?

Cheers

mike036 · Dec 13, 2019

I have wondered this myself. I have been using astragalus for awhile now and since using it my egfr has increased. If anybody has any input please chime in .

qbkilla · Dec 13, 2019

Egfr is an estimate of kidney function based on creatinine levels in blood. Egfr is nothing more than your creatine number (1.2 for example) plugged into a formula. It gives an idea of how your kidneys may be doing but by no means is definitive.

A person can have a 1.2 creatine (and the corresponding egfr) no have kidney issues

His twin can have a 1.5 creatiine (and corresponding egfr) and have healthy kidneys

Both could get retested in 2 days and be better or worse hydrated, or better rested, and get a far different number.

If your creatinine is way high however it is a bad sign, get additional testing, but could be nothing

Gfr is done using a 24 hour test and actually gives you real information on your kidney function, almost everyone here has had a creatinine test (egfr) but hardly any have had their actual gfr tested. A doctor would need to have concern to order a 24 hour urine test to find your gfr

Astralogus could decrease creatinine but so could an off day from the gym or drinking more water or lowering your blood pressure.

I doubt it helps, and if it does, not as much as real lifestyle changes to help kidneys (lose weight, do cardio, manage blood pressure, better diet, less gear, proper hydration, no anavar, no 350g protein per day).

If anyone has legit studies on this supplement I'd like to see them, I googled quickly once and found nothing, but I'm open minded. Kidney function should be the number one concern of any bodybuilder, our lifestyles are horrible for kidneys. I've had scares myself.

homonunculus · Dec 13, 2019

Muscle mass is a strong predictor of creatinine: The majority of creatine is found there and creatinine comes from spontaneous degradation to creatine. All other things being equal, blood creatinine levels can approximate muscle mass:

Measurement of muscle mass in humans: validity of the 24-hour urinary creatinine method

Abstract. Measuring muscle mass is an important component of the nutritional assessment examination and a suggested index of this body space is the 24-h urinary

academic.oup.com

This is even more of a concern if you're using creatine, increasing total body CR stores...

Cystatin C is something to ask your Doc about measuring, as it's not affected by this issue:

1. Baxmann AC, Ahmed MS, Marques NC, Menon VB, Pereira AB, Kirsztajn GM, and Heilberg IP. Influence of Muscle Mass and Physical Activity on Serum and Urinary Creatinine and Serum Cystatin C. Clinical Journal of the American Society of Nephrology : CJASN 3: 348-354, 2008. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390952/

Astragulus may not actually change eGFR from [creatinine], but perhaps hold it constant in those with progressive CKD:

1. Okuda M, Horikoshi S, Matsumoto M, Tanimoto M, Yasui H, and Tomino Y. Beneficial effect of Astragalus membranaceus on estimated glomerular filtration rate in patients with progressive chronic kidney disease. Hong Kong Journal of Nephrology 14: 17-23, 2012. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1561541312000026

... And reduce proteinuria (again without showing an effect on eGFR estimated via creatinine)

1. Peicheng S, Xuejun Y, and Liqun H. Effect of Astragali and Angelica particle on proteinuria in Chinese patients with primary glomerulonephritis. Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine 36: 299-306, 2016. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0254627216300413

HEre's a nice Review for you:

http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdf200502/LinSY.pdf

-S

(1. Peng A, Gu Y, and Lin SY. Herbal treatment for renal diseases. Ann Acad Med Singapore 34: 44-51, 2005. )

qbkilla · Dec 13, 2019

Good links, I am at work will check them out later. I believe protein in urine does indicate kidney problems, many on the boards say it doesn't but actually reading online says otherwise, protein in urine above trace is never normal.

It does seem that there is a link to large muscle mass and creatinine. But the question is, is there also a link to large muscle mass and decreased actual gfr? All that we do to build muscle is counterproductive to kidney health from aas, supplements, protein, high blood pressure etc.

And I have also heard from actual doctors and a few articles that creatine is bad for kidneys although many will argue it is not (usually creatine users I assume). Not sure why anyone using aas even messes with creatine anyway its like having sex with a 400lb chick when you have 2 models your dating lol

homonunculus · Dec 13, 2019

qbkilla said:
Good links, I am at work will check them out later. I believe protein in urine does indicate kidney problems, many on the boards say it doesn't but actually reading online says otherwise, protein in urine above trace is never normal.

It does seem that there is a link to large muscle mass and creatinine. But the question is, is there also a link to large muscle mass and decreased actual gfr? All that we do to build muscle is counterproductive to kidney health from aas, supplements, protein, high blood pressure etc.

And I have also heard from actual doctors and a few articles that creatine is bad for kidneys although many will argue it is not (usually creatine users I assume). Not sure why anyone using aas even messes with creatine anyway its like having sex with a 400lb chick when you have 2 models your dating lol

The link between blood [creatinine] and muscle mass is that muscle mass is largely the source of the creatinine. (You'll see different eGFR formulae based upon variation in muscle mass).

I don't know that having more muscle mass per se (in and of itself) would have any impact on renal function. A person with more muscle mass would likely be healthier, more active, etc., all other things being equal: I'm thinking here on a large scale epidemiological level (and try to sort out your question). I don't think there's any doubt that many of the pharm and other practices of BB'er (diuretic use being a big culprit, IMO) are not particularly enal-healthy.

As far as creatine, supplementing wouldn't be a great idea IMO in someone who is renal impaired, but there is a bit of scientific evidence to consider:

Studies on the safety of creatine supplementation - Amino Acids

Doubtful allegations of adverse effects of creatine supplementation have been released through the press media and through scientific publications. In the present review we have tried to separate the wheat from the chaff by looking for the experimental evidence of any such claims. Anecdotal...

link.springer.com

-----

Some folks like a little variety in their love life?... LOL There's also that creatine can make a difference for some on gear and it does (still) seem to help with glycogen loading, for instance. Even if it's a lesser gain for someone who's sauced up, why not partake of it, especially given that it's acting via a different mechanism (although androgens do seem to upregulate creatine biosynthesis)?...

-S