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Do we really need a calories surplus to gain muscle on High Doses of AAS

but the usual bodybuilder diets I see are so nutritiously poor - severe lack of variety, high omega-6 fats, low saturated fats, low salt/mineral intake, little to no attention to gut bacteria/micro biome - that it does make me hypothesize that nutrient density plays a big role in how much food you need to feel alert and just function properly.

I'd say that's false or biased, smart bodybuilders don't eat that way you describe.
 
Sure, it varies but I’ll just list what I ate yesterday

Morning: Drank an entire bottle of bone broth (i just toss the bones in a slow cooker, I eat those too)
Lunch: 4oz bison, mushrooms, bell peppers, squash, garlic, carrots, all cooked in 2 tbsp of duck fat.
Dinner: Beef liver and kidney (maybe like 3-4oz) and half a bag of kale cooked in 2 tbsp of tallow.

That’s pretty typical, I vary the types of vegetables and meats weekly depending on what’s available. I don’t like many fruits but I do have mangos, kiwi and berries as often as I can find them. I drink kefir milk and aged cheeses fairly regularly too.
Man, correct me if I'm completely wrong, but that's only like 1200 calories per day!

Morning:
Bottle of Bone Broth, guessing maybe 250 calories

Lunch:
4 oz bison = 124 calories
2 tbsp duckfat = 226 calories
Veggies = 100 calories

Dinner:
4 oz beef liver = 153 calories (kidneys = 112 cal)
1 lb of kale = 159 calories
2 tbsp tallow = 230 calories

Totoal:1242 Calories


Your body is not efficient. You absolutely destroyed your metabolism if you are surviving on that! From your stats, your maintenance should at least be 2000 calories.

I swear to god, I coach 115lb housewives and have them on calories way higher than this, and they are losing weight! And they are barely over 100lbs.

If you've maintained this for a long time, this is absolutely bordering on an eating disorder, no matter how "nutrient dense" your food is. Your body is suffering.

I know I've asked before and you always refuse, but I would love to see what you actually look like eating like this for a prolonged time. Last time you claimed privacy (even though, you can crop the face out, paint over tattoos etc..), but after seeing this diet, I understand why no pics.
 
1. I’ve made it very clear that if you are trying to be a national level bodybuilder, that is a different ball-game and I do think you have to eat more.

2. I agree with you, I AM smaller than you at 165-170 (not 156). But I do have to state, if you think that someone who isn’t bodybuilding-obsessed sees a guy nicknamed, “the muscle shark” (Sean Sherk), at 5’6 155lbs and they think “he’s so small, he needs to eat more”, if you think someone sees a guy like Yoel Romero at 5’10 185lbs and thinks “gosh, his calves are really lagging and he needs bigger biceps”..... I can assure you, this is not how people think and you are viewing the world from a very narrow perspective.

3. I’m not stopping you from eating how you like, I’m just saying if I eat the way you do, I end up with a bigger waist, a lot more gas, worse bloodwork and shit-cardio, with no noticeable strength or size increase.... so I have no reason to do so. If it works for you, that’s awesome, I’m envious that you have way more fun cheat meals than me to be honest, we are just having a conversation and sharing experiences.
Pics? I’m always curious what you say but without pics it’s kinda useless. You say it’s working great and you’re a short guy at a shredded 165 but let’s see.
 
Out of curiosity how do I eat exactly? Who said anything about cheat meals? What are you talking about? I’m not stopping you from eating how you like either. I said it’s individual I’m also saying in order to grow you have to be in a surplus. You’re giving anecdotes about hippy communes which serves absolutely no relevance here. You’re also confused because no one can give you a solid number on what eat big aka a surplus in order to grow is. No grown man is going to grow on 1600 calories. You’re also confused by someone with appreciable muscle mass needing more calories to maintain than a skinny fat vegan hippy.
Maybe you need your hormones checked idk. I never said get fat did I? I never said stuff your face on pizza and ice cream. But an objective fact is the body can’t make something from nothing. Literally in order to grow a person has to eat above maintenance.
You’re all over the place trying to make points or refute things that have no relevance here on a bodybuilding forum or never said in the first place.
Honestly you’ve added nothing of value at all here. There’s another poster you remind me of.

I’ve actually added a great amount of value to this thread by answering the OP’s question, based on my personal experience. Not many people on this forum have had severe digestive issues that forced them to go from 4000 calories down to 1500 for 3 years and had the opportunity to observe what happens. I’m NOT suggesting anyone do this, or not do it, but to make a claim that me sharing what I went through and what I observed is irrelevant and of no value is preposterous. I apologize if you are having a bad day, or if something I said triggered you, not my intent.
 
Out of curiosity how do I eat exactly? Who said anything about cheat meals? What are you talking about? I’m not stopping you from eating how you like either. I said it’s individual I’m also saying in order to grow you have to be in a surplus. You’re giving anecdotes about hippy communes which serves absolutely no relevance here. You’re also confused because no one can give you a solid number on what eat big aka a surplus in order to grow is. No grown man is going to grow on 1600 calories. You’re also confused by someone with appreciable muscle mass needing more calories to maintain than a skinny fat vegan hippy.
Maybe you need your hormones checked idk. I never said get fat did I? I never said stuff your face on pizza and ice cream. But an objective fact is the body can’t make something from nothing. Literally in order to grow a person has to eat above maintenance.
You’re all over the place trying to make points or refute things that have no relevance here on a bodybuilding forum or never said in the first place.
Honestly you’ve added nothing of value at all here. There’s another poster you remind me of.
I think he brought up the hippes specifically because I had questioned about having no energy on less than 2k calories. I personally feel like death at less than 2000 and libido goes to shit lol
 
This is just personal to me but if im eating less than 3000 calories I dont grow. Im 5'7" and 202 lbs this morning. Ill eat around 3500 calories and at least 300 g protien today.
The only thing that ever worked for me was eating a lot.
 
I’ve actually added a great amount of value to this thread by answering the OP’s question, based on my personal experience. Not many people on this forum have had severe digestive issues that forced them to go from 4000 calories down to 1500 for 3 years and had the opportunity to observe what happens. I’m NOT suggesting anyone do this, or not do it, but to make a claim that me sharing what I went through and what I observed is irrelevant and of no value is preposterous. I apologize if you are having a bad day, or if something I said triggered you, not my intent.
Trigger me? 😂 refer back to the title if the thread. How has a single thing you’ve said been relevant? I have issues as well I have Crohn’s disease. I don’t have to starve myself and destroy my metabolism because of it. I simply have to track what I eat and how it effects me.
 
Here’s why I don’t post pics (aside from the fact that I’m super private and tatted from neck to calves), my outlook is that it doesn’t matter. If what YOU see in the mirror and the way YOU feel makes you happy, then you are doing everything right. If I like my 165lb body when I look at it, have good sex drive, feel energetic and happy, my doctor is happy.... and if you are, let’s say 260lbs, great sex drive, energetic, happy, your doctor is happy...... then, aren’t we BOTH correct?

Look guys. In my teens I was about 120lbs, with a little pot belly. First time I tried squatting 95lbs, I fell straight to the floor. Embarrassing. Now I’m nearing 40, I’m 171.6lbs (today, literally right now), I’m not ripped, but I can always see my abs, and I can squat 405 for a couple reps.

I get that I’m not bodybuilder huge, I get that there are guys here squatting 700lbs for reps. I get it, and I think it’s awesome, but I’m happy with where I’m at and what Ive done.

I had some gut issues that forced me to really change how I eat. In three years I haven’t lost anything. I’m not saying I never will, who knows, maybe this year I’ll finally shrink back down to 120? Maybe I’m taking 20 years off my lifespan? Maybe if YOU eat the way I eat you‘ll lose all your muscle in three months. Maybe? I don’t know, I’m just sharing what I’ve experienced.

Again, I always dislike posting this, because a few people always get super triggered that something out there doesn’t fit into their puzzle of how a certain aspect of life is supposed to work, BUT, I didn’t start this thread, I didn’t call anyone out, I spoke about MY experiences.
 
Here’s why I don’t post pics (aside from the fact that I’m super private and tatted from neck to calves), my outlook is that it doesn’t matter. If what YOU see in the mirror and the way YOU feel makes you happy, then you are doing everything right. If I like my 165lb body when I look at it, have good sex drive, feel energetic and happy, my doctor is happy.... and if you are, let’s say 260lbs, great sex drive, energetic, happy, your doctor is happy...... then, aren’t we BOTH correct?

Look guys. In my teens I was about 120lbs, with a little pot belly. First time I tried squatting 95lbs, I fell straight to the floor. Embarrassing. Now I’m nearing 40, I’m 171.6lbs (today, literally right now), I’m not ripped, but I can always see my abs, and I can squat 405 for a couple reps.

I get that I’m not bodybuilder huge, I get that there are guys here squatting 700lbs for reps. I get it, and I think it’s awesome, but I’m happy with where I’m at and what Ive done.

I had some gut issues that forced me to really change how I eat. In three years I haven’t lost anything. I’m not saying I never will, who knows, maybe this year I’ll finally shrink back down to 120? Maybe I’m taking 20 years off my lifespan? Maybe if YOU eat the way I eat you‘ll lose all your muscle in three months. Maybe? I don’t know, I’m just sharing what I’ve experienced.

Again, I always dislike posting this, because a few people always get super triggered that something out there doesn’t fit into their puzzle of how a certain aspect of life is supposed to work, BUT, I didn’t start this thread, I didn’t call anyone out, I spoke about MY experiences.
Wow man, wow. Nobody is “triggered” - why do you keep saying that? This is a bodybuilding forum, you’re making outrageous claims and you have no pictures to back it up. You’re a charlatan in everybody’s eyes.
 
This could've been a great thread teaching guys how to really put on muscle but instead it's been derailed by the usual suspects.
 
What do you guys do training wise? 🤔

Do you do progressive overload where you try and progressively get stronger on an excersise? When you stall you drop that excersise and switch to another and progress until you can't anymore and so on.
Eating is the same way, you add calories weekly or bi weekly if you choose and you go until your body stresses as in fasted blood glucose raises to over limits, then you lower carbs for a bit, reset insulin sensitivity and then blast again.

This is how I would roll 😃

EVERYTHING IN BODYBUILDING IS PROGRESSIVE...training, gear, nutrition. You should be checking your body's feedback signals weekly (bloodwork a little less often of course)
 
Sorry guys but I just don’t agree. I’m not saying the traditional way doesn’t work, there’s some AMAZING physiques all over this thread, better than mine. But I think there exist people that can achieve significant muscle development, natural or enhanced, via non-traditional means. Everyone glossed over the video I posted, okay, what about Dr. Nun Amen-Ra? Herschel Walker?

Now, it depends on your meaning of what a muscular physique is. Stan McQuay? Jeff Seid? No, not in a million years do I believe you can take 1000mg of tren per week, eat the way I do, and look like that. But muscular, enough to stand out in almost any room? Of course. And WITH some AAS? No doubt.
 
Sorry guys but I just don’t agree. I’m not saying the traditional way doesn’t work, there’s some AMAZING physiques all over this thread, better than mine. But I think there exist people that can achieve significant muscle development, natural or enhanced, via non-traditional means. Everyone glossed over the video I posted, okay, what about Dr. Nun Amen-Ra? Herschel Walker?

Now, it depends on your meaning of what a muscular physique is. Stan McQuay? Jeff Seid? No, not in a million years do I believe you can take 1000mg of tren per week, eat the way I do, and look like that. But muscular, enough to stand out in almost any room? Of course. And WITH some AAS? No doubt.
I don't know Dr. Nun Amen-Ra but Herschel Walker is a once-in-a-generation freak athlete, it's ludicrous to use him for comparison.

It's fine that you don't agree, but realize that you're probably the smallest member of a board called PROFESSIONAL MUSCLE - size matters here, particularly when you give advice on how to eat. This place is about getting big and your methods won't help people trying to do that.
 
Testosterone, nandrolone and anavar have been used in medical settings, where people, sometimes sedentary burn victims in intensive care, have accumulated muscle mass. You’re telling me a burn victim is doing DC training and pounding chicken breasts?

Yet, a person training progressively, eating a nutritious but SUB-caloric diet, ON AAS, is somehow NOT going to gain muscle? That’s a wild perspective. Just because you don’t turn into Jay Cutler does not mean you aren’t gaining muscle.
 
Sorry guys but I just don’t agree. I’m not saying the traditional way doesn’t work, there’s some AMAZING physiques all over this thread, better than mine. But I think there exist people that can achieve significant muscle development, natural or enhanced, via non-traditional means. Everyone glossed over the video I posted, okay, what about Dr. Nun Amen-Ra? Herschel Walker?

Now, it depends on your meaning of what a muscular physique is. Stan McQuay? Jeff Seid? No, not in a million years do I believe you can take 1000mg of tren per week, eat the way I do, and look like that. But muscular, enough to stand out in almost any room? Of course. And WITH some AAS? No doubt.

Just post some pics. No one is triggered. The way you do things is not optimal and you are undereating. There are bikini girls who eat double what you do. Anyone can undereat and take AAS and be lean and look good. That is besides the point. This is about growing muscle... not being lean and the smallest guy in the room. That doesn't mean you still can't look good... no one is stating that. But if you are going to post what works for you and act like it could for many people at least show what it has done for you. Just post a pic. Being covered in tatts is a ridiculous explanation. I work for an AAS seller and my pics are all over the place. You obviously feel you don't look good enough. I am the last to judge and if you posted pics and looked small but lean I would think great and would not be surprised because you are undereating but you could surprise some people how good you do look. Now if you post and you look tiny with very little muscle people that wouldn't surprise me either but at least you are honest and man enough to show what your regime has done for you. Not everyone on here wants to be huge and lean and your look may be ideal to them.
 
To gain MAXIMUM size you will need to be in a calorie surplus.

You can gain SOME muscle in a calorie deficit, depends on a lot of factors, but let's not shit ourselves, you want to be a very big motherfucker you better be able to eat a lot of food.
The key is to know when to push the food and when to take your foot off the accelerator, this will determine how much of your weight gain is lean muscle tissue and how much is fat.

EXACTLY!

People can undereat and still look great especially if they have good genetics and are taking AAS. There isn't a one size fits all and I know many who follow diets that wouldn't work for most people but they work for them. Daniel summed it up perfectly as well. It's common sense though. If you want to get huge you need to eat big. If you want to get big you don't need to force calories but a surplus is definitely needed over time. Yes you can grow muscle in a deficit but it has to be under certain circumstances and there is only so far you can go. What does the term deficit mean? You can't grow over time when in a deficit for long periods. Now someone off AAS who has gained some fat and lost muscle yeah sure hop on AAS and low calories and they will build muscle and lose body fat and they will look multiple times better (genetics dictate just how great they will look).

Buselmo was one of my all time fav posters and we used to chat and he is a perfect example of someone who had good genetics who went off track who would start AAS and train very high volume and eat next to nothing and would look multiple times better within weeks. He would get bigger, fuller and lose bodyfat because he was on track and using AAS again. This doesn't mean everyone should undereat if gaining muscle is their main goal. It's common sense and use your brains and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. No one is stating you can't grow on sensible cals especially if you have digestive issues. Too many calories can go against you and fast but use some sense. Eat slightly over maintenance and see how you are and adjust when needed. Bodybuilding and growing muscle is all about progression and you will need to eat more over time if you want to grow a significant amount of muscle. The key is not starting too high and increasing (and decreasing) at the right times using your response/progress as a gauge over time.
 
Damn, this thread is spiraling out of control.

Bored, you have your own thoughts. Not my place to try to convince you otherwise. I appreciate your input here, but I'm fairly positive this thread isn't strictly how to look pretty good and athletic.

There is a point, and I'm sure LOTS of guys here are chasing that, where you walk into a room...filled with OTHER athletic muscular looking dude, and you STILL stand out. As a normal dude, the goal is to look like your semi-muscular with a shirt on. You hit that goal and then it moves onto bigger stuff. I would assume that as a poster here, the goal isn't just to look like a guy who works out. THose are a dime a dozen in 2021. I want to walk into a room or a bar and have those muscular dudes stare at me because I'm fucking muscular AND JUST BIG. So yeah, you want to be sub-200 and look pretty good at the beach. Cool. Nothing wrong with that. But i post one ProfessionalMuscle and those dudes are asking me what I eat everyday and what my routine is.

No hate, there's just a huge difference there.
 
What is a picture seriously going to prove? Some gentleman above just made fun of me for being “156lbs”..... yet to me, a 5’6, 155lb Sean Sherk is a “BIG motherfucker”

The problem is nobody is technically wrong here. We are using super vague terms like “big motherfucker”, what might be a big motherfucker to me, might differ from what it is to you.

For the sake of not disrupting the forum, because I actually enjoy the posts here, let’s just say I’m wrong, you DO need a caloric surplus on/off AAS to be a big motherfucker.
 
Damn, this thread is spiraling out of control.

Bored, you have your own thoughts. Not my place to try to convince you otherwise. I appreciate your input here, but I'm fairly positive this thread isn't strictly how to look pretty good and athletic.

There is a point, and I'm sure LOTS of guys here are chasing that, where you walk into a room...filled with OTHER athletic muscular looking dude, and you STILL stand out. As a normal dude, the goal is to look like your semi-muscular with a shirt on. You hit that goal and then it moves onto bigger stuff. I would assume that as a poster here, the goal isn't just to look like a guy who works out. THose are a dime a dozen in 2021. I want to walk into a room or a bar and have those muscular dudes stare at me because I'm fucking muscular AND JUST BIG. So yeah, you want to be sub-200 and look pretty good at the beach. Cool. Nothing wrong with that. But i post one ProfessionalMuscle and those dudes are asking me what I eat everyday and what my routine is.

No hate, there's just a huge difference there.

That’s the thing sir, you’re talking to me calmly and respectfully and I have NO qualms with that.

I feel SO much disrespect here for people who love bodybuilding but maybe are shorter, or just aren’t into the extreme AAS look. “Sorry, you’re not bodybuilder enough”. My good friend, at 43, has done nine shows, including the Texas Shredder. Extremely impressive guy, never more than 5lbs out of contest weight..... 5’5 competes at 147lbs, people constantly coming up to him for a comment or advice. Too small.

You can be a bodybuilder and not aspire to be a freak. It’s not you or all the other people that are calmly debating me that I’m bickering childishly with, it’s the ones that are “Oh, this is professionalmuscle, everyone here’s gotta be a freak”. I’m not talking to anyone trying to place at Nationals, that’s a different path. I’m talking because there are others out there who actually aspire to “body build”, and in my experience, a caloric surplus is not needed for ME.

That’s all I can say, I already made another post saying I’m wrong and whoever else is right. We are all still who we are at the end of the day.
 

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