Do you count proviron to total mg

[bill2]

I would count it as my total mags per week because it is still binds to the androgen receptor even though it doesn’t directly act as an anabolic but aids /acts like a glue if u like between aas actions in the body via freeing up testosterone lowering shbg inactivates some wstrafiol hardens the body etc…

 

[fisther69]

I just pretend it’s a vitamin

 

[Type-IIx]

I just don't see a rationale to tracking total mg at all. Look only at the dosages and their tolerability for each compound in combination for the individual.

Androgens are so disparate in their effects and actions. You could perhaps try to approximate the harms for dosages relative to a testosterone-equivalent dose of 600mg for 12 weeks: e.g., use a 600mg/12wk multiplier, summate all your doses converted to T-equivalent; but then you'd need to factor in an arbitrary multiplier for 17AAs, something like a a multiplier to factor in hepatotoxicity (resistance to hepatic breakdown * potency to activate AR). You wouldn't want to factor in the Hershberger Assay (rat) anabolic/androgenic ratio given all the weaknesses of that. Even this would be very unidimensional: an unwieldy approximation of overall dose-harm based on extrapolation from Bhasin 2001 and a Medical Hypothesis on hepatotoxicity.

Even the basic rationale: that all androgens work via the AR (to justify calculating total androgen dose given the effects downstream of AR activation) seems incorrect.

You can see this most clearly with the binding affinity of Proviron vs. Test vs. 17AAs (Anadrol, Winstrol, Halo). By all metrics, Proviron is a relatively potent anabolic and androgen according to published data; it's a potent AR agonist in rats and rabbits (0.21 RBA in rabbit skeletal muscle vs 0.25 rat prostate) which is 3x greater than Test's RBA (0.07) for the rabbit skeletal muscle cell. We know it's actually very weak (well WE do, someone should ask the gurus like Victor, Team Evil Genius guy, whether Proviron is also a great "anabolic anchor" and does "protein deposition" in muscle as well as anything else).

On the other extreme, the 17AAs like Anadrol, Halo, Winstrol, all have 0.02-undetectable RBAs across the board, in muscle and prostate.

To me, it's clear that 17AAs and many androgens derive much of their activity from non-ligand dependent AR action, membrane AR/GPCR nongenomic action, by modulating glucocorticoids; even aromatization is a myotrophic mechanism, differential effects on intramuscular IGF-I activity.

This diversity of action between drugs makes calculations like even tracking total mg of AAS futile. As is any sort of dosing based on lean body mass/body mass. Start with a minimal effective dose and titrate up based on logic and experience, with some reference to science where most relevant.

 

[pins]

I do proviron non-stop.No I dont add it to total of mg's used per week

 

[GeaRandSauCe]

Am I the only one around here who takes a little prov 25-50mg even when I’m already taking some masteron?

 

[Biggerp73]

I just don't see a rationale to tracking total mg at all. Look only at the dosages and their tolerability for each compound in combination for the individual.

Androgens are so disparate in their effects and actions. You could perhaps try to approximate the harms for dosages relative to a testosterone-equivalent dose of 600mg for 12 weeks: e.g., use a 600mg/12wk multiplier, summate all your doses converted to T-equivalent; but then you'd need to factor in an arbitrary multiplier for 17AAs, something like a a multiplier to factor in hepatotoxicity (resistance to hepatic breakdown * potency to activate AR). You wouldn't want to factor in the Hershberger Assay (rat) anabolic/androgenic ratio given all the weaknesses of that. Even this would be very unidimensional: an unwieldy approximation of overall dose-harm based on extrapolation from Bhasin 2001 and a Medical Hypothesis on hepatotoxicity.

Even the basic rationale: that all androgens work via the AR (to justify calculating total androgen dose given the effects downstream of AR activation) seems incorrect.

You can see this most clearly with the binding affinity of Proviron vs. Test vs. 17AAs (Anadrol, Winstrol, Halo). By all metrics, Proviron is a relatively potent anabolic and androgen according to published data; it's a potent AR agonist in rats and rabbits (0.21 RBA in rabbit skeletal muscle vs 0.25 rat prostate) which is 3x greater than Test's RBA (0.07) for the rabbit skeletal muscle cell. We know it's actually very weak (well WE do, someone should ask the gurus like Victor, Team Evil Genius guy, whether Proviron is also a great "anabolic anchor" and does "protein deposition" in muscle as well as anything else).

On the other extreme, the 17AAs like Anadrol, Halo, Winstrol, all have 0.02-undetectable RBAs across the board, in muscle and prostate.

To me, it's clear that 17AAs and many androgens derive much of their activity from non-ligand dependent AR action, membrane AR/GPCR nongenomic action, by modulating glucocorticoids; even aromatization is a myotrophic mechanism, differential effects on intramuscular IGF-I activity.

This diversity of action between drugs makes calculations like even tracking total mg of AAS futile. As is any sort of dosing based on lean body mass/body mass. Start with a minimal effective dose and titrate up based on logic and experience, with some reference to science where most relevant.

I've wondered whether AR activation isn't as simple as on or off. It seems to me to the AR receptor itself may be able to trigger different responses. Like a single button remote, but when pressed with different finger prints it signals different machinery.

 

[Chembody]

Seems like we dont count proviron but we count masterone for total week mg? Then most say they are the same

 

[marssel]

Hi gentlemen. I wonder how most of you approach proviron. Do you count proviron to total mg per week or treat it as if it isn't there. From what I have observed, most people do not count Proviron at all, explaining that its anabolic activity is practically almost zero.

I wonder how PM users approach this issue - such a small discussion.

Not in 20 years even when in prep abs I pop 4 a day in fact I think it makes cycling “safer” (easier on the body and requiring lower doses

 

[jeroendebleser]

Am I the only one around here who takes a little prov 25-50mg even when I’m already taking some masteron?

I do as well

 

[Type-IIx]

I've wondered whether AR activation isn't as simple as on or off. It seems to me to the AR receptor itself may be able to trigger different responses. Like a single button remote, but when pressed with different finger prints it signals different machinery.

Well, AR activation is more than a binary input... Concretely, when you say different machinery you'll have to elaborate. Do you mean different androgens may induce different post-transcriptional, or post-translational modifications in regulation of gene transcription and protein synthesis? Or that different androgens may alter translational efficiency or capacity (evidence of the latter with T, not of the former). Or are there different activities of coregulators, corepressors, etc. between androgens (there are)?

Yes, there are reasons to suppose a tren-AR complex translocating to the nucleus induces different downstream activity than a nand-AR complex than a T-AR complex. There is not yet a full understanding of the ramifications nor a comprehensive picture of the differences between all androgens or anything, but it's certainly more complex a question than will be answered here.

Anyhow, more interesting to me are all the non-AR mechanisms by which different androgens elicit their unique effects: e.g., with respect to myotrophic effects, this includes modulation of glucocorticoids, secondary messenger systems (e.g., their effects on myogenic stem cells), non-ligand-dependent AR activity including membrane-bound protein receptors inducing rapid nongenomic effects (e.g., increased strength allowing greater motor unit recruitment), etc.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I simply never use it anymore. It seems to do so little that maybe 200mg would be adequate but the tradeoff for that little bit of hardening would be too great. I would go with Masteron or Winstrol I think instead. I now have 60ml of primo for a 12wk 500mg/wk first try. I want to reserve judgement until that's completed. Body chemistry varies considerably though so... even then, my results mean little to anyone else.

 

[headtrainer]

I do NOT count proviron as an anabolic. I only run it to enhance my sex drive. I don’t use masteron because it enlarges my prostate when using it.

 

[qwerty_lifter]

I do NOT count proviron as an anabolic. I only run it to enhance my sex drive. I don’t use masteron because it enlarges my prostate when using it.

Oh wow, mast does affect your prostate but prov doesn't? What do you run the prov at vs. mast?

 

[headtrainer]

Oh wow, mast does affect your prostate but prov doesn't? What do you run the prov at vs. mast?

Proviron 12.5 mgs to 25 mgs daily. Mast was only 150 mgs per week.

 

[qwerty_lifter]

Proviron 12.5 mgs to 25 mgs daily. Mast was only 150 mgs per week.

Ok great...I ran low mast & it was pretty rough on mine as well. Hoping proviron treats me better.