Do you eat shit?

[Magnum]

Not to bicker but you did say they didn't track cals so my guess is the calories were lower, even if the diet contained plenty of fat and they felt like they were eating a large quantity of food. I agree that the insulin is part of the reason for the appetite decrease. The insulin response from carbs keeps feeding itself. High insulin = low blood sugar = more and more food and calories.

What kind of foods did they eat?

It's not bickering but a good question. There have been studies done about eating fats and protein and mainly carbs but the same amount of cals and people lost weight while the other group gained. Far as I know they still do not know the exact reason this occurs.

You have to be very careful with obese people. They will NOT stick to a diet that is not palatable to them so in the beinning like I said I do not care what they eat so much. I have had people eat loads of redmeat, eggs, butter, mayo, bacon any kind of lunch meat as long as it is low carb,which I do not neccesarily like to see but again you have to let me go in the beginning and wait for their appetite to come around.

Some people will say that this type of diet is unhealthy. Most of these people have been eating loads of fat and carbs and chemicals with little protein for 30 some odd years. If it takes a few weeks to trick them into eating better I certainly cannot see how it unhealthy to eat some processed foods for a few weeks. I still get shocked at what some of these people eat on a daily basis. TV dinners, boxes of prepared food, low fat cakes, pies and potato chips. 6 or more cans of soda daily, donuts for breakfast. What a shame that the public has been tricked into believing anything low fat is healthy.

 

[KillerStack]

There have been studies done about eating fats and protein and mainly carbs but the same amount of cals and people lost weight while the other group gained. Far as I know they still do not know the exact reason this occurs.

From my readings some of the high carb vs. low carb comparative studies have a major flaw: the high carb groups do not get sufficient protein. Lower carbs drastically and the protein automatically goes up. It seems that if you get "sufficient" protein on a calorie deficit it doesn't matter if the rest of the calories are from fat or carbs, as far as fat loss is concerned. So yeah, a mostly carb based diet will always be outperformed by a low carb/high protein diet. That's why a low carb diet fixes several problems for someone who has eaten mostly refined carbs, protein goes up and hunger is curbed due to insulin being lower and other satiety signals.

 

[Magnum]

From my readings some of the high carb vs. low carb comparative studies have a major flaw: the high carb groups do not get sufficient protein. Lower carbs drastically and the protein automatically goes up. It seems that if you get "sufficient" protein on a calorie deficit it doesn't matter if the rest of the calories are from fat or carbs, as far as fat loss is concerned. So yeah, a mostly carb based diet will always be outperformed by a low carb/high protein diet. That's why a low carb diet fixes several problems for someone who has eaten mostly refined carbs, protein goes up and hunger is curbed due to insulin being lower and other satiety signals.

There is no flaw. Actually this study that I dug up shows that fat was the major reason for muscle retention, go figure. It was a study done on overweight people. A ten day fast. One group fasted totally while the other group ate around 1000 cals with 90% of it being fat and the remainder protein. They both lost roughly the same amount of weight, but the second groups weight consisted mainly of fat while the fasters lost mostly muscle. Below are some excerpts and references.


Fat Fast is based on the study by Benoit. It is designed for the
hard core metabolically resistant people. It is not supposed to help
you lose fat fast, but rather to push your metabolism to go into
ketosis (the fat burning mode).

The study was a study done by Frederick Benoit and his associates at
the Oakland Naval Hospital. They compare "the 1000-calorie, 10-gm-
carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting in seven men weighing
between 230 and 290 pounds. On the 10-day fast, they lost 21 pounds
on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds
was body fat. But on the ketogenic diet, 14 of the 14.5 pounds lost
was body fat." (NDR, p. 61)

It is a 1000-calorie a day, 90% fat diet. You divide the food into
small portions, and have them at different times of the day.

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

Magnum, based on the feelings you are expressing towards high cabr diets, I am inclined to ask you how low you have most of your clients go on carbs during the offseason. I understand that this answer will vary drastically from individual to individual, but give me an average estimate of how many grams of carbs you would have one of your offseason bodybuilders taking in...someone with oh...let's say 200lbs of LBM. And also how many fats. Or hell, do you just use a general percentage breakdown of the macros in their diet as a baseline and adjust it from there? (ie: 50% pro, 30%fats, 20% carbs)?? If so, what is that general guideline, percentage wise?....if you don't mind me asking of course!

Also, you feel that insulin has no place in a bodybuilders "building" season??

Thanks for all your input here, I am enjoying the info and it is making me think very critically...which I LIKE

 

[JETHRO TULL]

That is excellent information, Magnum.

Great questions, KillerStack. I am having fun reading the thread. I think it's incredible how much muscle the total fasting group lost. The group who only ate fat at a 1000 cals per day lost only fat? No muscle loss? Wow.

 

[swervedriver]

I agree! This is certainly one of the most informative threads I've read in a while... To me this is the kinda stuff we should be debating because its all about the diet... THanks Killerstack and Magnum for your input as it has made for a great read... However, I would also like to know what percentages you (magnum) believe is key to "building"?

 

[Big Bapper]

I have been eating a good Bodybuilding diet. However a few months ago I started the Big Mac thing. Eating all my BB foods then junk for extra cals. Went and got my last blood work done and my cholesterol was a shocking 15 note I was using the same gear as my last tests. Great thread MG.

 

[Moen]

I dont eat carbs anymore
I know the talk here is not about no carbs but everything is going better without carbs, I even get less sore from workouts (and I dont take in any carbs pwo other than those that are in the nuts)

 

[kidstuff]

good thread.

insulin is the death hormone, it's basically our bodies internal death clock telling our cells when to self-destruct.

**broken link removed** (this is a LONG but awesome read)
(you can just put in a fake e-mail as long as a real provider i.e. @yahoo, @hotmail, etc , the window goes away)

that said. I think using ketogenic diet studies that were done on obese people and relating them to bodybuilders is dumb.

on a keto diet, no matter how muscle sparing the studies say they are, how much muscle are you gonna be able to spare on a diet where you feel tired and miserable, and after a while the carb cravings get so bad you wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming OATMEAL!!!!!!! your wife KNOWS you have a officially lost it. you can't sleep, you can't train, brain fog, then you binge, you're out of ketosis, takes you 3 days to get back into it. you can't have splenda in your coffee or diet coke because that will kick you out too......

lol.... just my experiance

 

[Moen]

What you describe only happens when you go too low in total calories, has nothing to do with how much carbs you eat but everything with your overall energy levels

 

[edge250]

should be about balance. not low carb this high protein that no fat here, blah blah. your body needs a balance of all 3 to build muscle or to lose fat. being that we are all unique individuals that balance we be different for each person. experiment for yourself and find your own balance. i have competed twice; 1st show was low carb, higher fat/protein and it sucked ass, yeah got lean but also lost a good amount of muscle, did i mentioned it really really sucked. 2nd show the traditional approach very low fat higher carb etc, chicken, rice, veggies looked much better than 1st show. this time around it will be a balance of all 3 and i look to make a big jump in both conditioning and size. time will tell.

 

[xcelbeyond]

should be about balance. not low carb this high protein that no fat here, blah blah. your body needs a balance of all 3 to build muscle or to lose fat. being that we are all unique individuals that balance we be different for each person. experiment for yourself and find your own balance. i have competed twice; 1st show was low carb, higher fat/protein and it sucked ass, yeah got lean but also lost a good amount of muscle, did i mentioned it really really sucked. 2nd show the traditional approach very low fat higher carb etc, chicken, rice, veggies looked much better than 1st show. this time around it will be a balance of all 3 and i look to make a big jump in both conditioning and size. time will tell.

IMHO this is a really good analogy - and each of us changes as we age! My diet is MUCH different now than 20 years ago as my body responds differently. I did good with your second show diet having moderate amounts of protein with each meal and low fat in the ol' days. What I've found in recent years is that too many carbs (even good, clean, low GI) put on the BF. I also seem to have a LOT of gas when eating too many carbs, ESP sweets . Too much protein seems to put on the fat. It seems like if your trying to get most protein from food, you're going to get a LOT of fat along with it.

 

[TeamZ]

Great thread MG!!!

Here's my 2 cents I ate clean for 12 years during that time I played with high carbs low carbs moderate carbs, and any fats came from the food sources, so they came from the chicken lean red meat and fish I ate, What worked best for me was to keep my protein between 250 and 300 grams a day and the same with carbs, I felt good had plenty of energy, and always grew when training CONSISTENTLY! My carbs always came from a combination of brown rice and pinto beans, and occasionally sweet potato's and oats! I ate that way every day weather it was a Holiday, a party what ever, I ate small meals every 2-3 hours and never deviated from that plan. After 12 friggin years It got old, so I Incorporated a cheat day, then cheat weekends, which I ate anything I wanted, pizza, Micky D's taco bell, what ever, after about a year I noticed no changes in my BF% or health, blood work was fine cholesterol was in the normal range....Then I started cheating every day ate a few clean meals and allot of junk I went way to the other extreem, man I ate anything twinkeys ho ho's what ever I wanted, I still stayed fairly lean, and blood work and yearly physicals always came back good, but after about 3 years all hell broke loose I constantly felt like shit my waist was growing but I still could see abs, so the fat was accumulating in side around my organs, all my joints hurt, was tired all the time! my body was going toxic and I could feel myself aging, and see it happening rapidly, loosing hair and graying, getting colds and flu when I never used to get sick!
All the crap eating had defiantly caught up with me, I had to stop it! I even stopped training because I couldn't get motivated to train!
Now I mostly eat organic and natural foods and try to do 2-3 cleanse a year, I started training again and feel great, I'm 41 now and am 250 and fairly lean(I pudged out a little after my quad tear) and now that I can do cardio again I'm getting leaner, and am not really counting calories I just eat clean and consistent, with a couple cheat days a month!
I feel eating all the fast food will KILL you sooner or later it will catch up to you, yea it's easy, it taste awesome, I still crave big mac's but wont eat them! I still want to be breathing and training in my 70's

 

[Jrflex10er]

Also I see alot of younger kids in the ages of 17-20 think they need to eat alot of carbs because of what they read in mags. What they don't know is that they see what the pros eat but what you also have to take into consideration is that pros use insulin. When someone like Jay says he eats 1000g of carbs a day he doesn't tell you about how much insulin he uses which obviously makes a huge difference in how your body utilizes these carbs.


I see no reason to use carbs other than morning and post workout. Just doesn't make any sense to me to eat 100g of carbs mid morning or mid afternoon. Even worse I see this alot with older men that I know that work at offices. So now you have these carbs in your system and all they will do is sit on their butts for 8 hours...???? Don't make sense. Why not eat a nice bowl of oatmeal for breakfast use that has a carb meal then go to work and eat healthy fats and protein until per and post workouts. For per just use a little bit of carbs for energy. Post for recovery. Then cut your carbs off before 6-7 and be done with them for the day? That makes more sense to me.

 

[Big Bapper]

Great thread MG!!!

Here's my 2 cents I ate clean for 12 years during that time I played with high carbs low carbs moderate carbs, and any fats came from the food sources, so they came from the chicken lean red meat and fish I ate, What worked best for me was to keep my protein between 250 and 300 grams a day and the same with carbs, I felt good had plenty of energy, and always grew when training CONSISTENTLY! My carbs always came from a combination of brown rice and pinto beans, and occasionally sweet potato's and oats! I ate that way every day weather it was a Holiday, a party what ever, I ate small meals every 2-3 hours and never deviated from that plan. After 12 friggin years It got old, so I Incorporated a cheat day, then cheat weekends, which I ate anything I wanted, pizza, Micky D's taco bell, what ever, after about a year I noticed no changes in my BF% or health, blood work was fine cholesterol was in the normal range....Then I started cheating every day ate a few clean meals and allot of junk I went way to the other extreem, man I ate anything twinkeys ho ho's what ever I wanted, I still stayed fairly lean, and blood work and yearly physicals always came back good, but after about 3 years all hell broke loose I constantly felt like shit my waist was growing but I still could see abs, so the fat was accumulating in side around my organs, all my joints hurt, was tired all the time! my body was going toxic and I could feel myself aging, and see it happening rapidly, loosing hair and graying, getting colds and flu when I never used to get sick!
All the crap eating had defiantly caught up with me, I had to stop it! I even stopped training because I couldn't get motivated to train!
Now I mostly eat organic and natural foods and try to do 2-3 cleanse a year, I started training again and feel great, I'm 41 now and am 250 and fairly lean(I pudged out a little after my quad tear) and now that I can do cardio again I'm getting leaner, and am not really counting calories I just eat clean and consistent, with a couple cheat days a month!
I feel eating all the fast food will KILL you sooner or later it will catch up to you, yea it's easy, it taste awesome, I still crave big mac's but wont eat them! I still want to be breathing and training in my 70's

12 years. Respect. Can you recommend a good cleanseing/detox product as it has been somthing I have been looking into for a wile.

 

[Magnum]

I agree! This is certainly one of the most informative threads I've read in a while... To me this is the kinda stuff we should be debating because its all about the diet... THanks Killerstack and Magnum for your input as it has made for a great read... However, I would also like to know what percentages you (magnum) believe is key to "building"?

There is no exact percentage since carbs are the least important in your diet. Just slowly add in enough, but not too much that you start to lay down fat. Everyone talks about percentages like there is some magical number. Everyone also seems to lose sight of most guys are on so much stuff that their metabo is not functioning like a normal human being. Sure some guys can eat tons of carbs and get away with it as far as not getting fat, but when you are taking fat burners and steroids your body is burning calories at a faster pace.

 

[bigfatandugly]

The study was a study done by Frederick Benoit and his associates at
the Oakland Naval Hospital. They compare "the 1000-calorie, 10-gm-
carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting in seven men weighing
between 230 and 290 pounds. On the 10-day fast, they lost 21 pounds
on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds
was body fat. But on the ketogenic diet, 14 of the 14.5 pounds lost
was body fat." (NDR, p. 61)

It is a 1000-calorie a day, 90% fat diet. You divide the food into
small portions, and have them at different times of the day.

hold on here...

so, if i were to start this diet tomorrow and run it 10 days, which i think i might just to satisfy my own curiosity, i will lose NO muscle, just strictly fat, and 14 pounds of it (the scale number is meaningless to me, really. its the preseravtion of lean tissue while on such a low calorie diet that has me wondering)

im doubtful, but am curious and am not one to call bullshit unless i have first hand experience, so i might give it a go, just to see...

did this control gorup do anything insofar as exercise, there is no mention of that- i somewhat doubt it as id expect on such a low calorie program catabolism would be a very real threat if the stimulus of weight training was added in.

thoughts?


BFU

 

[Magnum]

hold on here...

so, if i were to start this diet tomorrow and run it 10 days, which i think i might just to satisfy my own curiosity, i will lose NO muscle, just strictly fat, amd 14 pounds of it?

im doubtful, but am curious and am not one to call bullshit unless i have first hand experience, so i might give it a go, just to see...

did this control gorup do anything insofar as exercise, there is no mention of that- i somewhat doubt it as id expect on such a low calorie program catabolism would be a very real threat if the stimulus of weight training was added in.

thoughts?


BFU

Don't shoot the messenger bro, I am only relaying the info. I have run this type of diet (not exact) on some of my competitors for short periods of days (3 to 4) and have noticed no loss of muscle. I only do this with people who come to me who happen to be behind schedule.

 

[KillerStack]

hold on here...

so, if i were to start this diet tomorrow and run it 10 days, which i think i might just to satisfy my own curiosity, i will lose NO muscle, just strictly fat, and 14 pounds of it (the scale number is meaningless to me, really. its the preseravtion of lean tissue while on such a low calorie diet that has me wondering)

im doubtful, but am curious and am not one to call bullshit unless i have first hand experience, so i might give it a go, just to see...

did this control gorup do anything insofar as exercise, there is no mention of that- i somewhat doubt it as id expect on such a low calorie program catabolism would be a very real threat if the stimulus of weight training was added in.

thoughts?


BFU

This study was on obese people. The fatter you are when you start a drastic diet the less muscle you will lose. The leaner you are the harder it is to hang on to muscle while dropping fat.

A popular method for treating morbidly obese people is to put them on a PSMF diet, which stands for Protein Sparing Modified Fast (it's basically just some protein to preserve muscle and a drastic calorie cut (less than 1k calories per day).

This method has been optimized by nutritionists like Lyle McDonald (author of the UD2.0 diet) by adding 6g of fish oil to the diet since essential fats are essential to optimize fat loss and muscle preservation. He also inserts re-feed days every now and then. It's popular to jumpstart a less severe diet. If I had a date say in 2 weeks when I wanted to look my best that's the diet I would do - fastest way to lose fat. If I was also on steroids and/or GH plus thermogenics I doubt there would be any muscle loss in such a short period.

 

[bigfatandugly]

Don't shoot the messenger bro, I am only relaying the info. I have run this type of diet (not exact) on some of my competitors for short periods of days (3 to 4) and have noticed no loss of muscle. I only do this with people who come to me who happen to be behind schedule.

lol...

no shooting the messenger here bro- i more than appreciate discussion in this thread and on the boards.

i really hope my post didnt come across as rude, as that was totally not my intention. lol.

i think i will attempt it to see first hand, not all ten days (i find if i dont have a specific goal in mind when dieting for something, i easily break).

very curious.


BFU