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Do you really need ORAL'S??

Fullybuilt

Banned
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Messages
1,309
So i've been stressing lately about what oral to add to my next cycle. Cycle will be 12-16weeks with 1g test prop and 700g NPP(6iu's GH too). I was gonna run 75-100mg Tbol the first 4weeks and 75-100mg anavar the last 4weeks(or just run one of those compounds the last 8weeks) but then I got to thinking. It makes sense why someone would use orals to harden up while dieting, but this cycle is for lean mass. Im gonna try to pack on as much muscle as possible while staying fairly lean(no more than12-13%) and not excessively bloat. So, would I be better off adding some tren ace at 400mg per week or IGF-LR3 or some other injectable in place of the orals. Would that yeild more muscle or do the orals play a certain role? Thanks
 
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I would use the anavar, its least toxic and still will give pretty solid gain's at that dose. you're a pretty young guy, You don't need this much total MG's already, especially if you're not competing.
 
Toxicity / Necessary

Dbol is going to pack on mass quicker than any oral with the least side effects, but anadrol will probably give you more mass with a hell of a lot more toxicity.

If you do run the Anavar (which is no less toxic then any other 17-AA steroid, by the way) then 60 - 80 mg will be more than enough to compliment the test and nandrolone.

As to whether or not orals are needed, the answer is no, they are not needed. You can do just fine without ever having to ingest an oral.
 
So which would you all pick to add to the NPP/HGH/Test cycle. I can either add 80mg Tbol ED for 6weeks, IGF-lr3 at around 40mcg ED for 4weeks on/4off then another 4on, or add 400mg Tren ace per week for 6weeks. They are all gonna cost around the same, but with the HGH,Test and NPP, which of the 3 would you all choose if your primary goal is to add as much muscle as possible? Thanks
 
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i have for years, done orals as was allways the mindset... i did the typical 1-4 weeks of anadrol or dbol the get that "kick start", before my test kicks in to get a boost... today i am finding that in general i get just as good a "kick start", using suspension ED, or prop EOD, in leiu of my say ethenate/cypionate... to me if you running prop as your base, and it being a quick acting drug and also used in alot of lean mass/cutting cycles, i would forget the orals... unless you have the dollars to spend, i would stick with the prop/HGH only... thought i might add, throughout the years, i have just as in workout routines tried most new schools of thought on AAS... done the pyramiding back in the day, tapering, kick starting with orals, comming off with orals etc... i have gotten pretty complex with cycles in the past, but im finding out now in my early 30's that simple seems to work just as good if not best for me, and the same with my workout routine...
 
Need? Nope. In fact it would be healthier without them.
 
Dave_19 said:
I would use the anavar, its least toxic...


Actually, Primobolan is the least toxic oral.


As for anyone looking for a "kick-start" to a cycle, test suspension and/or test propionate will give you an excellent start without the harshness on your liver.


Simply put, no, orals are not required for excellent gains in a cycle.
 
terryd5150 said:
Actually, Primobolan is the least toxic oral.


As for anyone looking for a "kick-start" to a cycle, test suspension and/or test propionate will give you an excellent start without the harshness on your liver.


Simply put, no, orals are not required for excellent gains in a cycle.

I was refering to the choices he listed, it is the least toxic of them, and he has a lot of MG in that cycle. But Primo would be a good choice also in INJ form to what he listed I think also.
 
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Anavar is DEFINITELY as toxic as all orals

Dave_19 said:
Why do you alway's have some negitive comment to any thing I say in thread's. It's like you always have to disagree about some thing with me, I don't really get it?

Dave19, what are you talking about? We have different opinions, and I'm going to post mine. That's all. Did you see me say you were wrong? No. I just posted a response. Relax, don't take it so personal.

And just FYI, I could reference more posts where you're negating what I say - DIRECTLY - but honestly, it doesn't matter to me. I accept we have different viewpoints. You should too.

Dave_19 said:
Anavar's hepa-toxicity is no where near that of anadrol or dbol. Dbol, tbol, anadrol are class II steroids, Anavar is Class I. 50mg/anavar a day would do far less stress to the liver then 50mg/day/dbol for 10 weeks.

You do realize that Class I simply means that it binds directly to androgen receptors (AR), whereas Class II steroids (dbol, anadrol) work by some other route, NOT binding directly to the AR. This has nothing to do with whether or not a steroid is TOXIC due to it's 17AA. Anavar, Dbol, and Anadrol are all equally liver toxic, whether you choose to accept that or not, simply because they must pass twice through the liver. Other steroids only endure second pass liver metabolism.

The only argument that you would be able to make here is that injecting winny is less toxic then taking it orally because it does not have to suffer first-pass liver metabolism. Other than that, all 17AA's are equally toxic.

The notion that Anavar is somehow magical in it's ability to be less toxic is because for years the dose for anavar was 5mg as opposed to Anadrol's 50mg, and everyone else dropping Dbols between 20 and 50mg a pop. So dosage has PLENTY to do with it.

Dave_19 said:
I know guys who have been on var for over a year (not that I would say this is a good Idea).

And I have a friend whose bloodwork comes back without any problems whatsoever dropping 50 mg's of DBOL in the morning every day for a couple of years. We all have stories of freaks who can handle this stuff, the average person probably wouldn't be able to, but that's still up for debate since everyone fears orals like the plague.

Dave_19 said:
Yes anavar has the same liver toxicty problem as other 17-alkylated steroids but not to the same degree.

Sorry, this just isn't backed up with any science or anecdotal evidence. Anavar is just as toxic - mg for mg - then any other oral that is 17AA'd. The myth that it isn't derives from the 5mg - 15mg dosage reccomended as opposed to the 50mg reccomendations for Anadrol.
 
Dave_19 said:
You know what, a difference of opinion is fine, but that's not how it is with you. Every thing you say on here is spoken like its a fact, like you know every thing.

I got that exact same impression. Like nothing's up for debate with ol' Brooklyn BB. To give opinions is one thing, but to state them as they are fact is annoying and misleading to people who may not know any better.
 
Jesus H. Christ LOL!!

Dave_19 said:
You know what, a difference of opinion is fine, but that's not how it is with you. Every thing you say on here is spoken like its a fact, like you know every thing. I have never seen you say "i think" or In my opinion. You don't know what your talking about a good % of the time like right now again. You try to correct me with your "opinion" when were speaking about a subject where opinion is irrelevant.

If you can't tell that what I type is what I think, then I can't help you. If I am typing it, those are my thoughts and opinions.

What sparked this anyway? The fact that I said Anavar is no less toxic than any other 17AA steroid? This is exactly what I wrote, not directed at you:

"If you do run the Anavar (which is no less toxic then any other 17-AA steroid, by the way) then 60 - 80 mg will be more than enough to compliment the test and nandrolone."

Can't help it if you take that personally, bro.

I'll only supply this reference which is readily available on the internet and not disputed since 2001 from Bill Roberts:

"Oxandrolone shares the liver toxicity problems common to 17-alkylated steroids. At one time it was thought that it did not, but both clinical and practical experience with Oxandrin has shown that at doses of 40 mg/day and higher, liver toxicity is indeed an issue with prolonged use."

Can you give me a link to your abstract? Looks interesting, I would like to read it. But I also find it interesting that they did not compare it to Oxymethelone or Methandrostenelone.

Dave_19 said:
I don't have any problem with you on here let's just get off on a different note from this point on.

Honestly, if you did, I really don't care. This is a message board, not my life. If people start hating me because I type a certain way, so be it. But at least we're all after the same goals of building muscle efficiently and safely. I'll leave it there and hope we all learn something.



BigBoyJ said:
I got that exact same impression. Like nothing's up for debate with ol' Brooklyn BB. To give opinions is one thing, but to state them as they are fact is annoying and misleading to people who may not know any better.

And you got this from me posting my thoughts about Dianabol not being as toxic as people are led to believe? LOL.

If people are dumb enough to read what anyone types here without doing some independent research then they get what they deserve.
 
need them?? no.. not in any way shape or form.. there are enough injectables on the market to suit you needs.. i used to love dbol.. even in small dosages it did wonders for me.. but, knowing the risk to benefit ratio.. ill stick to "needleing" my ass..;)
 
LATS said:
need them?? no.. not in any way shape or form.. there are enough injectables on the market to suit you needs.. i used to love dbol.. even in small dosages it did wonders for me.. but, knowing the risk to benefit ratio.. ill stick to "needleing" my ass..;)



now do you feel that injectable dball is as bad? I have done that pretty much for the last 3 years or so instead of the tablets.
 
BrooklynBB said:
Anavar, Dbol, and Anadrol are all equally liver toxic, whether you choose to accept that or not, simply because they must pass twice through the liver.

Sorry, this just isn't backed up with any science or anecdotal evidence. Anavar is just as toxic - mg for mg - then any other oral that is 17AA'd. The myth that it isn't derives from the 5mg - 15mg dosage reccomended as opposed to the 50mg reccomendations for Anadrol.
They do have differing toxicities mg for mg. Now, some "experts" in the industry feel Anavar is way more toxic than Anadrol! Some think the opposite. This can be debated of course but they are not all the same, that's certain.
 
Originally Posted by BrooklynBB
Anavar, Dbol, and Anadrol are all equally liver toxic, whether you choose to accept that or not, simply because they must pass twice through the liver.

Sorry, this just isn't backed up with any science or anecdotal evidence. Anavar is just as toxic - mg for mg - then any other oral that is 17AA'd. The myth that it isn't derives from the 5mg - 15mg dosage reccomended as opposed to the 50mg reccomendations for Anadrol.


Wouldnt this be like saying 12oz of beer, 12oz of wine and 12oz of vodka are all equally liver toxic? Just doesnt seem to make sense. Now I can agree that 150mg anavar may be as toxic as 50mg drol but there is no way 50mg drol/50mg dbol and 50mg var are all equally as toxic.
 
Reply

|--[\\\]>------- Orals can "F'OFF" if you ask me! i have not touched an oral in years, and finally i had an xtra btl of powelrine dbol laying around so i split it with my roomate and we each took 2 caps a day and i did gain a little bit of strength, but mostly zits! (guess that's where the xtra weight came from..LOL) anyways...i hate orals...higher body temp., zits, water retention, and bloody noses! this is not the case with all orals, but the ones i hve taken (a50,halo, and dbol)
 
bigbadasian said:
|--[\\\]>-------we each took 2 caps a day and i did gain a little bit of strength, but mostly zits! (guess that's where the xtra weight came from..LOL)

I wonder how many zit's you would need to gain 1lb?:chee;y-sm :(
 
No *NEED* for them as posted above.

I love your cycle though. OT first ending with Var. Yummy. They're both low on toxicity, too, which I find is smart, as the liver can only take so much crap. Them guys going 100mg Drol at EVERY cycle are asking for it IMO and again IMO that is how they get such a bad reputation.

Oh, and one thing that I do find useful with orals is that they help clear the hormones from the body more quickly, which at the end of the cycle is pretty useful if PCT is going to be effective. From that point of view, you would finish with OT instead of VAR, which you would do first.
 
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Fullybuilt said:
Wouldnt this be like saying 12oz of beer, 12oz of wine and 12oz of vodka are all equally liver toxic? Just doesnt seem to make sense. Now I can agree that 150mg anavar may be as toxic as 50mg drol but there is no way 50mg drol/50mg dbol and 50mg var are all equally as toxic.

Not really, because 12oz of beer contains between 4.0 / 5.0 percent of alcohol while Vodka contains 40% alcohol. So those are not fair comparisons.

5mg of an 17AA's substance is 5mg's - period - regardless of what substance is in there. Thus, it has to survive first and second pass liver metabolism.
 
What LATS SAID

I am a Needler from way back.

wedge






LATS said:
need them?? no.. not in any way shape or form.. there are enough injectables on the market to suit you needs.. i used to love dbol.. even in small dosages it did wonders for me.. but, knowing the risk to benefit ratio.. ill stick to "needleing" my ass..;)
 

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