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Does muscle catabolism from T3 come as a result of…..

If your question is whether there is any study in humans on clen looking at the prevention of muscle atrophy in man with caloric restriction, the answer is no (unless there's data I haven't seen; but doubtful). But we do know it mitigates protein degradation mechanistically. It is demonstrably skeletal muscle anabolic in man, increases sprint performance, strength, is lipolytic, and increases skeletal muscle mass while decreasing fat mass. It's a potent recomp agent. I've written about it somewhat extensively here: Clenbuterol focus: Research on Clen & Beta2- Adrenergic Compounds, Protocols
Agreed clen has slight activation of mTor but much less than say Leucine so again the reach for clen to be better than it is seems to continue, good response
 
Good info. Thank you.

I’m on 5mg Nebivolol. I wish I could use clean for the reasons you cited but I assume these cancel each other out directly? Can’t hurt to ask. Lol.
They don't cancel one another out, there are benefits to the beta1- adrenergic antagonism of nebivolol. However, nebivolol does weakly antagonize the beta2- adrenergic receptor as well as agonizing the beta3- receptors. It's a bit too non-specific to suppose what the net effect of clen+nebivolol (D- and L- enantiomers, combined) would look like for someone with hypertension (as I am supposing you are hypertensive).
 
Agreed clen has slight activation of mTor but much less than say Leucine so again the reach for clen to be better than it is seems to continue, good response
By all accounts, clen is considered to be a potent activator of mTOR. The difference between clen vs. leucine is in the time-course of activation and the fact that they are different inputs to mTOR: that is, clen activates mTOR chronically vs. leucine doing so acutely; and they work synergistically as different inputs. So, it's sort of a false dilemma that you'd present a case for leucine (from protein macronutrient structures) versus clen. It's not one or the other, mTOR phosphorylation is the product of both inputs (along with several others). Anyway, mTOR is something nerds get deep into the weeds with, yet is not the be-all-end-all of human skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
 
But yet damn near every competitive bodybuilder uses t-3 in their prep. I guess that goes to show the true power of anabolic steroids.
It also makes clear that scientific studies on paper don't always tell the full story because these studies aren't done on bodybuilders and performance athletes taking large amounts of anabolics and other measures to enhance anabolism.
 
By all accounts, clen is considered to be a potent activator of mTOR. The difference between clen vs. leucine is in the time-course of activation and the fact that they are different inputs to mTOR: that is, clen activates mTOR chronically vs. leucine doing so acutely; and they work synergistically as different inputs. So, it's sort of a false dilemma that you'd present a case for leucine (from protein macronutrient structures) versus clen. It's not one or the other, mTOR phosphorylation is the product of both inputs (along with several others). Anyway, mTOR is something nerds get deep into the weeds with, yet is not the be-all-end-all of human skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
I agree with you and I’ve traveled the nerd route on mTor, personally I believe Leucine to be a monster initatior of hypertrophy and hyperplasia and have had days long convos with guys like Darryn Willoughby (who wrote his first thesis on clen), William Llewellyn, and many others who initially disagreed with me in the early 2000s on leucine volume and all came around to diffe
 
To different degrees so much so that several entire product lines were created by certain guys on that list. No I have. No PhD but I’m an heavily educated in and out of classroom and like to “nerd out” with these guys who admittedly are all well above my level in overall aA&P and exercise science and all it’s subsets but what I know I know and a great deal has come the Duchaine way which is belief followed by self and client experimentation. Yes mTor can be activated different ways by different means I do not disagree and yes they are synergistic but I still feel like clen in general is not worth the high dose use to achieve anabolism. I also still believe that behind insulin, DNP, and blood volumizers (EPO/plasma expanders) I think that it is on the list of deadly drugs. I don’t think you’re wrong I just think clen is a drug that is highly over used especially the start of this thread talking 200-300 mcgs, I think 300 mcgs for an asthmatic is insane. That’s just an opinion though maybe I’m wrong.
 
They don't cancel one another out, there are benefits to the beta1- adrenergic antagonism of nebivolol. However, nebivolol does weakly antagonize the beta2- adrenergic receptor as well as agonizing the beta3- receptors. It's a bit too non-specific to suppose what the net effect of clen+nebivolol (D- and L- enantiomers, combined) would look like for someone with hypertension (as I am supposing you are hypertensive).
Totally agree here though im no specialist in this area as compared to say AAS
 
To different degrees so much so that several entire product lines were created by certain guys on that list. No I have. No PhD but I’m an heavily educated in and out of classroom and like to “nerd out” with these guys who admittedly are all well above my level in overall aA&P and exercise science and all it’s subsets but what I know I know and a great deal has come the Duchaine way which is belief followed by self and client experimentation. Yes mTor can be activated different ways by different means I do not disagree and yes they are synergistic but I still feel like clen in general is not worth the high dose use to achieve anabolism. I also still believe that behind insulin, DNP, and blood volumizers (EPO/plasma expanders) I think that it is on the list of deadly drugs. I don’t think you’re wrong I just think clen is a drug that is highly over used especially the start of this thread talking 200-300 mcgs, I think 300 mcgs for an asthmatic is insane. That’s just an opinion though maybe I’m wrong.
Absolutely agree with you that I've seen some downright sad abuses of clen. Doses that can be expected to lead to cardiac cell apoptosis without delay. What's done in cases of LVAD (congestive heart failure) patients (to elicit cardiac growth) is not something guys should even be treading near in their doses.
 
Absolutely agree with you that I've seen some downright sad abuses of clen. Doses that can be expected to lead to cardiac cell apoptosis without delay. What's done in cases of LVAD (congestive heart failure) patients (to elicit cardiac growth) is not something guys should even be treading near in their doses.
Glad you said it we are an excess group like bikers or say Marines but the heart abs kidneys are where we seem to write our own obits.
 
They don't cancel one another out, there are benefits to the beta1- adrenergic antagonism of nebivolol. However, nebivolol does weakly antagonize the beta2- adrenergic receptor as well as agonizing the beta3- receptors. It's a bit too non-specific to suppose what the net effect of clen+nebivolol (D- and L- enantiomers, combined) would look like for someone with hypertension (as I am supposing you are hypertensive).
I thought Nebivolol was the most specific/selective antagonist of b1 at 323:1 ratio to b2. And 3,5x more selective than Bisoprolol. Bisoprolol was second generation and Nebivolol third generation blocker. What am I missing here or don't understand; how is it bit too non specific? I mean yes, it could be even more selective but do we have any better options available as Bisoprolol was said to be specific and good enough but Nebivolol is even more so what do you mean exactly?

Thank you
 
I read a few times that 25 mcg is great dose to be used in offseason to enhance anabolism.
 
I read a few times that 25 mcg is great dose to be used in offseason to enhance anabolism.
how do you want to enhance anabolism by giving a replacement dose? I'm asking seriously

it's like you would like to increase anabolism by going from natural to TRT - you only replace natural production ...
 
I read a few times that 25 mcg is great dose to be used in offseason to enhance anabolism.
I’ve heard of this mentality b4 so there are guys doing it for sure but for me personally the less shit I take while achieving good results is the path but that’s over 40 me 25-35 me would say “let’s rock”
 
I have found T3 to be worthless in off-season bodybuilders, as it does not help build lean tissue. I've seen it destroy gains, though. The only reason to use T3 in the off-season is if you have a true deficiency. Otherwise, no. There is something to be said of low-dose T4 in the off-season, but not T3.
 
I worked with one man whose previous coach had him on 300 mcg of T3/daily in the of-season. You guys can probably guess the coach, as he recommends gross amounts of drugs to aspiring bodybuilders and has a history of trying to swoop up young talent by telling them he won't charge them for his services! Anyway, the first thing I did was remove ALL the T3 from his program. All of it. I anticipated at least some short-term crash (i.e. fat gain) as his body attempted to re-start endogenous production, but I wanted him to recover as quickly as possible (there simply isn't any reason to gradually reduce one's T3 dose, as the feedback loop for the thyroid is much more resilient than most other feedback loops). I did not expect what happened. Not only did not not gain any fat at all, but he actually gained 20 lbs of lean tissue in 30 days and his BF went down! He did this while cutting his steroid use dose to 1/3rd of what it was, as he was on atrocious doses at that time I met him.

I have since speculated as to what exactly allowed this guy to gain so much lean tissue in such a short period of time, while simultaneously lowering his BF%. In my opinion, there was probably some "over-reaching" going on, as his body had likely upregulated many of its muscle-sparring processes in order to hang onto lean tissue in the face of an overwhelmingly catabolic metabolism. Therefore, when that catabolic metabolism was suddenly removed from the equation, those muscle-sparring processes remained in high gear for a while, enabling him to achieve great growth over a short period of time. Of course, I do NOT recommend anyone abuses T3 for the purpose of trying to achieve something similar, but it is an interesting observation, none the less.

This experience showed me, quite clearly, the ability to T3 to absolutely crush muscle gains. Now, there is definitely some evidence to show that low-dose T4 may beneficial for growth, but as far as T3 goes, I am not in favor. We want normal levels of T3 when attempting to grow, not supraphysiological levels. There may be some exceptions to this, but if so, it is certainly not the norm.
 
I worked with one man whose previous coach had him on 300 mcg of T3/daily in the of-season. You guys can probably guess the coach, as he recommends gross amounts of drugs to aspiring bodybuilders and has a history of trying to swoop up young talent by telling them he won't charge them for his services! Anyway, the first thing I did was remove ALL the T3 from his program. All of it. I anticipated at least some short-term crash (i.e. fat gain) as his body attempted to re-start endogenous production, but I wanted him to recover as quickly as possible (there simply isn't any reason to gradually reduce one's T3 dose, as the feedback loop for the thyroid is much more resilient than most other feedback loops). I did not expect what happened. Not only did not not gain any fat at all, but he actually gained 20 lbs of lean tissue in 30 days and his BF went down! He did this while cutting his steroid use dose to 1/3rd of what it was, as he was on atrocious doses at that time I met him.

I have since speculated as to what exactly allowed this guy to gain so much lean tissue in such a short period of time, while simultaneously lowering his BF%. In my opinion, there was probably some "over-reaching" going on, as his body had likely upregulated many of its muscle-sparring processes in order to hang onto lean tissue in the face of an overwhelmingly catabolic metabolism. Therefore, when that catabolic metabolism was suddenly removed from the equation, those muscle-sparring processes remained in high gear for a while, enabling him to achieve great growth over a short period of time. Of course, I do NOT recommend anyone abuses T3 for the purpose of trying to achieve something similar, but it is an interesting observation, none the less.

This experience showed me, quite clearly, the ability to T3 to absolutely crush muscle gains. Now, there is definitely some evidence to show that low-dose T4 may beneficial for growth, but as far as T3 goes, I am not in favor. We want normal levels of T3 when attempting to grow, not supraphysiological levels. There may be some exceptions to this, but if so, it is certainly not the norm.


How would you run t4 to grow?
 
I have found T3 to be worthless in off-season bodybuilders, as it does not help build lean tissue. I've seen it destroy gains, though. The only reason to use T3 in the off-season is if you have a true deficiency. Otherwise, no. There is something to be said of low-dose T4 in the off-season, but not T3.
Definitel interested in hearing your take on adding T4 to an off season growth phase , it’s been discussed here some with the addition of HGH but i can’t recall seeing your input
 
I worked with one man whose previous coach had him on 300 mcg of T3/daily in the of-season. You guys can probably guess the coach, as he recommends gross amounts of drugs to aspiring bodybuilders and has a history of trying to swoop up young talent by telling them he won't charge them for his services! Anyway, the first thing I did was remove ALL the T3 from his program. All of it. I anticipated at least some short-term crash (i.e. fat gain) as his body attempted to re-start endogenous production, but I wanted him to recover as quickly as possible (there simply isn't any reason to gradually reduce one's T3 dose, as the feedback loop for the thyroid is much more resilient than most other feedback loops). I did not expect what happened. Not only did not not gain any fat at all, but he actually gained 20 lbs of lean tissue in 30 days and his BF went down! He did this while cutting his steroid use dose to 1/3rd of what it was, as he was on atrocious doses at that time I met him.

I have since speculated as to what exactly allowed this guy to gain so much lean tissue in such a short period of time, while simultaneously lowering his BF%. In my opinion, there was probably some "over-reaching" going on, as his body had likely upregulated many of its muscle-sparring processes in order to hang onto lean tissue in the face of an overwhelmingly catabolic metabolism. Therefore, when that catabolic metabolism was suddenly removed from the equation, those muscle-sparring processes remained in high gear for a while, enabling him to achieve great growth over a short period of time. Of course, I do NOT recommend anyone abuses T3 for the purpose of trying to achieve something similar, but it is an interesting observation, none the less.

This experience showed me, quite clearly, the ability to T3 to absolutely crush muscle gains. Now, there is definitely some evidence to show that low-dose T4 may beneficial for growth, but as far as T3 goes, I am not in favor. We want normal levels of T3 when attempting to grow, not supraphysiological levels. There may be some exceptions to this, but if so, it is certainly not the norm.
Do we know if he was able to force growth by increasing calories to the point of eating more to make weight increase on the scale ?

I wonder what would happen if they stayed at high t3 levels and added in 1200g carbs 350 protein or something like that or even some fat to force a change.
 
I worked with one man whose previous coach had him on 300 mcg of T3/daily in the of-season. You guys can probably guess the coach, as he recommends gross amounts of drugs to aspiring bodybuilders and has a history of trying to swoop up young talent by telling them he won't charge them for his services! Anyway, the first thing I did was remove ALL the T3 from his program. All of it. I anticipated at least some short-term crash (i.e. fat gain) as his body attempted to re-start endogenous production, but I wanted him to recover as quickly as possible (there simply isn't any reason to gradually reduce one's T3 dose, as the feedback loop for the thyroid is much more resilient than most other feedback loops). I did not expect what happened. Not only did not not gain any fat at all, but he actually gained 20 lbs of lean tissue in 30 days and his BF went down! He did this while cutting his steroid use dose to 1/3rd of what it was, as he was on atrocious doses at that time I met him.

I have since speculated as to what exactly allowed this guy to gain so much lean tissue in such a short period of time, while simultaneously lowering his BF%. In my opinion, there was probably some "over-reaching" going on, as his body had likely upregulated many of its muscle-sparring processes in order to hang onto lean tissue in the face of an overwhelmingly catabolic metabolism. Therefore, when that catabolic metabolism was suddenly removed from the equation, those muscle-sparring processes remained in high gear for a while, enabling him to achieve great growth over a short period of time. Of course, I do NOT recommend anyone abuses T3 for the purpose of trying to achieve something similar, but it is an interesting observation, none the less.

This experience showed me, quite clearly, the ability to T3 to absolutely crush muscle gains. Now, there is definitely some evidence to show that low-dose T4 may beneficial for growth, but as far as T3 goes, I am not in favor. We want normal levels of T3 when attempting to grow, not supraphysiological levels. There may be some exceptions to this, but if so, it is certainly not the norm.

Was it this guy?

I've used up to 300mcg. Believe it or not this was during a "bulk" for about 3-4 weeks but I had ramped up from 100-200mcg the several weeks prior. Really it was just a reckless blast during a breakup but I shoveled in the calories and I had incredibly full muscles, bursting at the seems full with no bloat. Fantastic workouts. They were not clean calories, im talking 2-3 frozen pizzas in the evening followed by a pint of ice cream or two, all after a your standard big ass bowl of chicken/rice. I of course was on a... hefty amount of AAS.

Side effects were terrible, high BP, heart rate after eating whilst laying down of over 130+. I know of others online that pushed well over 200mcg too. I would never dream of doing it again without being on a beta blocker but even then I think 150mcg is more then enough to get whatever job done you are wanting to get done with T3.

37.5mcg puts me between 4.0 to 5.0 TSH (slow but in range). 50mcg year round has me around 2.0 TSH. One size does not fit all when it comes to the thyroid.

75mcg on blasts whether growing or cutting is my standard, I have only ever seen positive effects from this dose when attempting to gain. My 75mcg might be your 50mcg though, we are all different when it comes to thyroid hormone response.

Edit - Strong first post I know. I have been out of the game for 2 years, life happens. On my way back in now, previously went under board name Sector on other forums and no I am no where near that reckless anymore, I would like to see the age of at least 60.
 

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