donating blood . . . does it reduce red blood cell count?

[Mike Arnold]

This question is for Mike Arnold and Stewie.

Mike, in the past you've suggested Naringin to lower hematocrit, which is backed by actual studies. I noticed you didn't bring that up in this thread and I haven't heard anyone else mention this supplement in any of the other threads regarding hematocrit. Do both of you feel this is still a good supplement to incorporate?

One study with Naringin used 36 individuals with hematocrit ranging from 36.5 to 55.8. Interestingly, those with the higher hematocrit level showed a drop to 49.2, but those with a lower number had an increase to 38.8.

This study can be found here...

Ingestion of grapefruit lowers elevated... [Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI

There are variety of steps one can take to "thin" the blood--naringin (and related compounds) is one of these, but the cool thing about naringin is that it addresses the problem at its root by directly lowering hematocrit, rather than simply thinning the blood through temporary, indirect means.

However, it is not fool-proof. For some people it may not be sufficient for lowering hematocrit levels back into a normal range, while for others it is. We don't know why this happens, but everyone will notice at least some improvement, with most experiencing significant results.

So, the short answer is yes, I do think it is a worthwhile compound. How could it not be with such strong clinical support? However, keep in mind that it is not naringin alone that is responsible for the positive results witnessed in most of these studies, but a combination of related compounds, which when combined, provides a potent hematocrit lowering effect. In fact, naringin is not the most potent of the bunch. I believe naringinin is, but I could be mistaken, as it has been a while since I have looked at the study.

 

[Stewie]

There are variety of steps one can take to "thin" the blood--naringin (and related compounds) is one of these, but the cool thing about naringin is that it addresses the problem at its root by directly lowering hematocrit, rather than simply thinning the blood through temporary, indirect means.

However, it is not fool-proof. For some people it may not be sufficient for lowering hematocrit levels back into a normal range, while for others it is. We don't know why this happens, but everyone will notice at least some improvement, with most experiencing significant results.

So, the short answer is yes, I do think it is a worthwhile compound. How could it not be with such strong clinical support? However, keep in mind that it is not naringin alone that is responsible for the positive results witnessed in most of these studies, but a combination of related compounds, which when combined, provides a potent hematocrit lowering effect. In fact, naringin is not the most potent of the bunch. I believe naringinin is, but I could be mistaken, as it has been a while since I have looked at the study.

A null hypothesis of a "p" value of 0.01 is strong clinical evidence?

 

[warlock]

There are variety of steps one can take to "thin" the blood--naringin (and related compounds) is one of these, but the cool thing about naringin is that it addresses the problem at its root by directly lowering hematocrit, rather than simply thinning the blood through temporary, indirect means.

However, it is not fool-proof. For some people it may not be sufficient for lowering hematocrit levels back into a normal range, while for others it is. We don't know why this happens, but everyone will notice at least some improvement, with most experiencing significant results.

So, the short answer is yes, I do think it is a worthwhile compound. How could it not be with such strong clinical support? However, keep in mind that it is not naringin alone that is responsible for the positive results witnessed in most of these studies, but a combination of related compounds, which when combined, provides a potent hematocrit lowering effect. In fact, naringin is not the most potent of the bunch. I believe naringinin is, but I could be mistaken, as it has been a while since I have looked at the study.

What dose of naringin would you suggest taking? Would it be ok to take both baby aspirin and naringin?

Thank you

 

[warlock]

Donating blood, even if only once every 2 months, would definitely be helpful for someone who struggles with elevated hematocrit, although once monthly may be preferable for those administering larger dosages of AAS.

Wouldn't donating once a month deplete your iron levels too much?

 

[Bio]

Wouldn't donating once a month deplete your iron levels too much?

You can't donate once a month. It's one donation every 56 days. Double red donations are done every 112 days.

Here's a link to this info...

Blood Donation Types | Whole Blood, Plasma, Autologous | American Red Cross

 

[Bio]

There are variety of steps one can take to "thin" the blood--naringin (and related compounds) is one of these, but the cool thing about naringin is that it addresses the problem at its root by directly lowering hematocrit, rather than simply thinning the blood through temporary, indirect means.

However, it is not fool-proof. For some people it may not be sufficient for lowering hematocrit levels back into a normal range, while for others it is. We don't know why this happens, but everyone will notice at least some improvement, with most experiencing significant results.

So, the short answer is yes, I do think it is a worthwhile compound. How could it not be with such strong clinical support? However, keep in mind that it is not naringin alone that is responsible for the positive results witnessed in most of these studies, but a combination of related compounds, which when combined, provides a potent hematocrit lowering effect. In fact, naringin is not the most potent of the bunch. I believe naringinin is, but I could be mistaken, as it has been a while since I have looked at the study.

Thank you for responding Mike! What are some of the other supplements that help with this? If you don't want to list them for some reason, feel free to PM me!

 

[Mike Arnold]

A null hypothesis of a "p" value of 0.01 is strong clinical evidence?

Have you read all the available research? Seen any labwork from guys who have used it? I have. I have had clients bring theur hema down significantly by drinming grapefruit juice/eating grapefruit. One guy brought his down from 54 to 48 by eating 1 grapefruit daily for 8 weeks. He made no other changes to his prohram--neithr diet or drug-wise. It was wholly attributable to the grapefruit. That is pretty damn impressive. After seeing at least 5 clients induce major chamnges to their hema levels in 4-8 weeks, I started incorporating it into my own diet on a daily basis. Even as little as 4 ounces of grapefruit juice daily is enough to produce significnat results.

 

[Mike Arnold]

What dose of naringin would you suggest taking? Would it be ok to take both baby aspirin and naringin?

Thank you

Eat grapefruit--not isolated naringin supps, as it is not naringin alone that is responsible for grapefruit's full hemacrit altering effects.

1/2-1 grapefruit daily...or 4-8 ounces of grapefruit juice daily. Remember, not everyone responds equally, as not everyone's body is programmed to regulate hema levels to the same set-point. For example, one man's body may be set to regulate hema levels to 44, while in another man it may be 50. It varies between people.

Naringin and related compounds act as "regulators", which means they will elevate hema when it is low and reduce it when it is high. Therefore, naringin and related compounds will have the biggest effect on those whose hema levels are farthest away from their body's natural set-point.

In other words, if someone's hema level is normally at 50, but AAS have brought it up to 53, it is not going to produce as much of a change as someone who is normally at 44, but AAS have brought it up to 52.

Remember, it takes time for hematocrit to return to normal. Don't expect to see full results 1 week after supplementation begins. It can take a couple months to see maximum results.

Lastly, for unknown reasons, these compounds don't seem to work equally well in everyone, although everyone will responds to some degree, assuming their is a substantial alteration in hema level at the start of supplementation.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Wouldn't donating once a month deplete your iron levels too much?

It would depend on what your iron levels already are, your iron intake, and your body's repsonse. Not everyone is the same. For example, many women's muti-vitamins are formulated with additional iron, while many male multi's rarely have added iron.

This is because woman can lose iron during menstruation, so they assume women will need additional iron. This is certainly NOT always the case. For example, my wife consumes a normal amount of iron containing foods, has her period monthly, yet was recently diagnosed with hemochromatosis (elevated iron). Fortunately, my wife was not consuming extra iron in her multi, as she has been using mine for years, which has no aditional iron in it.

The point here is that there is significant variance between people. To answer your question more directly, the answer is no, donating blood once monthly will not necessarily result in iron deficiency..and even if it did, it the problem is easily rectified by supplementing with additional iron.

Still, once monthly may be too much for many people. Most clinics will only let people donate about once every 2 months for that reason. But, keep in mind that AAS users produce much more RBC's than non-steroid users, especially when using higher doasages..and even more so for those people whose body's are sensitive to AAS's RBC stimulating effects.

These people may need to donate more than once every 2 months if they are not taking any other steps to reduce hematocrit. If iron levels get too low, as mentioned previously, they could always supplement with it. However, I would not recommend people automatically begin donating blood once per month. I think that is a mistake for more than one reason. Instead, I recommend people take other steps to reduce hema, such as grapefruit consumption. For some people, this alone will suffice to keep hema in range, but if necessary, they could always donate blood every couple months as well. I seriously doubt one would need to donate blood more often than that if they are also taking other steps to normalize heamocrit.

 

[Stewie]

You didn't answer my original question... I'll lead up to that further in this post.

I'm not certain if you have read any of my responses over the years here in health related threads. A vast majority of my posts are lined around blood work. So you are aware. I'm working towards my M.S. focused on being a PA (Physician Assistance). So yes, I've reviewed hundreds of lab's, Mike. Even those, including myself that tried grapefruit. With zero results in a hematological change in their hematocrit.

You see Mike, I don't post on what's the optimal cycle, diet or training program. I'll leave that to you and others more in the know. I mainly come on here to help those interpret their lab's as well offer suggestions on a differential diagnosis, outside of the normal thinking diagnosis to their primary care provider. As you can see in several of my posts.

There are a few members here ( Achilles reborn, Grenada [in which Grenada is a physician, himself], and Jay_Dub's father that have been under the care of one of my previous physician. This same physician has offered me a job on more than one occasion as a consultant with his patients. As well offered me a job post graduate. I still have the emails to validate this. Not that I like the idea of placing a Mod in the spotlight... If you want to ask any of the mods here to verify this, I'll forward these emails to them.

I really encourage you to read this. As there's not only a diagnosis on my behalf to the member thebigone. I talk about my experience with an elevated HH.
What is going on with my Hemo blood levels!!! bloodtest inside. - Professional Muscle (Bulgarian)

Here's another that may interest you.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...n-levels-blood-what-can-i-do-please-help.html

That single study that gets passed around as the holy grail on a reduction on the mass volume of hematocrit is weak. I'll dissect it one more time so you can understand it's insignificance. Probably won't change your mind, that's fine.

For one, it's an observational study and the only one of it's kind.  Show me a follow-up on this in a Randomized controlled clinical trial or a Randomized crossover ClinicalTrial. Not sure if you're aware that an observational study, cohort studies do not provide empirical evidence that is as strong as that provided by properly executed randomized controlled clinical trials. Observation studies can be very bias, as it's not controlled.

That study is weak, at best. Most observational studies are based on a hypothesis. Are you familiar with study designs? I am.

It was published in 1988 (26 years ago) and the lead researcher Dr. R. C. Robbins PhD wasn't very descriptive of his findings. Other than naringin's action to entice the signalling transcriptions of phagocytes on red blood cells. Phagocytosis can can come from several different physiological reactions. Are you aware of this, I am.  Dr. Robbins uses the words Those with without definition of how many. I can describe two people as those. Nor is there a quantitative measure per individual on the hematological changes in hCT over the course of the study.

There is not one description of the cause of these individuals elevated hCT. Not one. You know what happens when one becomes dehydrated and see where your hCT climbs too. Go play on a mountain top for several weeks and see how much hCT climbs. The induction of hypoxia will cause a significant rise in hCT. Pulmonary fibrosis and right side heart failure from Cor pulmonale can cause one's hCT to be elevated. Smoking, excessive ephedrine usage, hGH therapy, ect, ect.... So, what was the pathophysiological cause of these individuals to be in an acute or chronic state of erythropoiesis? All of this is very relevant. Very relevant.

Plus Mike, there is a variable degree of fluctuations with our HH. This changes hourly and daily. Hydration status is the biggest influence on this. Buy a hemoglobinometer and try with and without grapefruit. I've seen it first hand at my previous physicians office when I tried the grapefruit hypothesis on myself.

If you believe it works, use it. I personally have seen first hand it doesn't work.

A quick Google on other BB sites, others experience the same as I. Oh, I'm sure there's others that say the opposite as it worked for them.
Planning a cycle on TRT worried about Hematocrit

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and high hematocrit


I highly recommend not dumping once a month. That's actually foolish to even suggest it. Unless you are under the care of a physician. Become iron deficient and you increase the chances of cardiomyopathy amongst several other etiologies associated with Fe deficiency. Wouldn't it be a much wiser idea to place focus on the cause of a secondary elevation of hCT adjacent to AAS?

Naringin has a regulatory effect on hematological function? Can you provide evidence for this, other than this single study on naringin effect
phagocytes signalling.

Sorry to hear about your wife, what type of hemochromatosis was your wife diagnosed with?

We can agree to disagree Mike.

I could go on and on, as I'm sure you can. Ultimately, I have more important things to do.

 

[Mike Arnold]

You didn't answer my original question... I'll lead up to that further in this post.

I'm not certain if you have read any of my responses over the years here in health related threads. A vast majority of my posts are lined around blood work. So you are aware.
I wasn't aware.

I'm working towards my M.S. focused on being a PA (Physician Assistance). So yes, I've reviewed hundreds of lab's, Mike. Even those, including myself that tried grapefruit. With zero results in a hematological change in their hematocrit.
If you read through my previous responses, you will see that I have said--more than once--that it doesn't appear to work for everyone. At the same time, when you see several people experience a significant reduction in hematocrit within 4-8 weeks of supplementation (with no changes in diet or drug program), after dealing with long-term, chronic elevation of hematocrit, it would be foolish to discount the results, especially when clinical studies, observational or not, appear to validate the results.

You see Mike, I don't post on what's the optimal cycle, diet or training program. I'll leave that to you and others more in the know. I mainly come on here to help those interpret their lab's as well offer suggestions on a differential diagnosis, outside of the normal thinking diagnosis to their primary care provider. As you can see in several of my posts.

There are a few members here ( Achilles reborn, Grenada [in which Grenada is a physician, himself], and Jay_Dub's father that have been under the care of one of my previous physician. This same physician has offered me a job on more than one occasion as a consultant with his patients. As well offered me a job post graduate. I still have the emails to validate this. Not that I like the idea of placing a Mod in the spotlight... If you want to ask any of the mods here to verify this, I'll forward these emails to them.
Unnecessary. I usually take what people say at face value.

I really encourage you to read this. As there's not only a diagnosis on my behalf to the member thebigone. I talk about my experience with an elevated HH.
What is going on with my Hemo blood levels!!! bloodtest inside. - Professional Muscle (Bulgarian)

Here's another that may interest you.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...n-levels-blood-what-can-i-do-please-help.html

That single study that gets passed around as the holy grail on a reduction on the mass volume of hematocrit is weak. I'll dissect it one more time so you can understand it's insignificance. Probably won't change your mind, that's fine.

For one, it's an observational study and the only one of it's kind.  Show me a follow-up on this in a Randomized controlled clinical trial or a Randomized crossover ClinicalTrial. Not sure if you're aware that an observational study, cohort studies do not provide empirical evidence that is as strong as that provided by properly executed randomized controlled clinical trials. Observation studies can be very bias, as it's not controlled.
Yes, I am aware of the difference, but these studies should not be tossed in the trash just because they're observational. Even in your case, you did not automatically discount it, but tested grapefruit on yourself before coming to a conclusion. In other words, it was your own personal experience that formed your opinion regarding the legitimacy of these study results--not the study itself.

It is the same with myself. After reading the study, I soon after started testing it out on clients, to see if I could duplicate these results in the real world. Being that the medicine was nothing but fruit, a failure to produce results would be the only side effect encountered. So, I started testing it out at either 1 grapefruit or 6-8 ounces of grapefruit juice daily. The first 2 people to try it, all of whom were experiencing elevated hematocrit over a prolonged period of time, went back down into the normal range after about 4-8 weeks. The 3rd time was also a success, which was followed by a few failures. I have had a couple more people try it with success since then, including myself, but there have also been some failures, in which I couldn't really tell if it was doing anything. The changes were so small that they could not be considered.

However, when someone is experiencing chronically elevated hematocit for long periods of time and it goes down by 6 points in 8 weeks, with no change to their proghram, how can one just discount those results? The first guy I know who tried this, whose hematocrit went down 6 points, confirmed his test results a few weeks later with additional bloodowork, at which point it was still down 5.5 points--nearly the same. These readings were in stark contrast to other every reading he obtained previously.


That study is weak, at best.
Maybe so, but none the less, it doesn't mean the results are without merit.

Most observational studies are based on a hypothesis. Are you familiar with study designs? I am.
Yes, I am.

It was published in 1988 (26 years ago) and the lead researcher Dr. R. C. Robbins PhD wasn't very descriptive of his findings. Other than naringin's action to entice the signalling transcriptions of phagocytes on red blood cells. Phagocytosis can can come from several different physiological reactions. Are you aware of this, I am.  Dr. Robbins uses the words Those with without definition of how many. I can describe two people as those. Nor is there a quantitative measure per individual on the hematological changes in hCT over the course of the study.

There is not one description of the cause of these individuals elevated hCT. Not one. You know what happens when one becomes dehydrated and see where your hCT climbs too. Go play on a mountain top for several weeks and see how much hCT climbs. The induction of hypoxia will cause a significant rise in hCT. Pulmonary fibrosis and right side heart failure from Cor pulmonale can cause one's hCT to be elevated. Smoking, excessive ephedrine usage, hGH therapy, ect, ect.... So, what was the pathophysiological cause of these individuals to be in an acute or chronic state of erythropoiesis? All of this is very relevant. Very relevant.
You're right, but again, it doesn't mean the results aren't valid--it just means there are unanswered questions. The following is a partial cut & paste from the study..."The hematocrits ranged from 36.5 to 55.8% at the start and 38.8% to 49.2% at the end of the study. There was a differential effect on the hematocrit. The largest decreases occurred at the highest hematocrits and the effect decreased on the intermediate hematocrits; however, the low hematocrits increased That is a pretty significant difference.

Plus Mike, there is a variable degree of fluctuations with our HH. This changes hourly and daily. Hydration status is the biggest influence on this.
I am aware.

Buy a hemoglobinometer and try with and without grapefruit. I've seen it first hand at my previous physicians office when I tried the grapefruit hypothesis on myself.

If you believe it works, use it. I personally have seen first hand it doesn't work.
...and I have seen the opposite. I guess both of our opinions originate from personal experience. The only difference being that mine is more aligned with the aformentioned study results.

Believe me, I get what you are saying about the flaws in the study--too many unknowns. This makes it impossible to come to any definite conclusions based on the study alone. That's why we experiment on ourselves and others--to try and get some answers. At this point, we are not the only ones who have formed differing opinions on this subject. There are other people on the boards who have adopted both of our viewpoints as a result of their own labwork results.


A quick Google on other BB sites, others experience the same as I. Oh, I'm sure there's others that say the opposite as it worked for them.
Planning a cycle on TRT worried about Hematocrit

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and high hematocrit


I highly recommend not dumping once a month. That's actually foolish to even suggest it.
Like I said previously, I don't recommend it either specifically because of the risk of iron deficiency. Could this problem be prevented/corrected with supplementation? Sure, but why take it that far when it is very rarely needed? I have only recommended it a few times to people whose hematocrit was still elevated after the first donation, but I have never recommended it as an ongoing practice.

Unless you are under the care of a physician. Become iron deficient and you increase the chances of cardiomyopathy amongst several other etiologies associated with Fe deficiency. Wouldn't it be a much wiser idea to place focus on the cause of a secondary elevation of hCT adjacent to AAS?
Yes, which is why I said I usually recommend other methods of regulating hematocrit in conjunctioin with donations every other month, when necessary. Perhaps you didn't read my full post about this.

Naringin has a regulatory effect on hematological function? Can you provide evidence for this, other than this single study on naringin effect
phagocytes signalling.
Just that study, along with anecdotal evidence. However, I will ask you the same thing. Do you have any studies which contradict this one, or does your opinion hinge solely on anecdotal evidence and arguments of poor study design?

Sorry to hear about your wife, what type of hemochromatosis was your wife diagnosed with?
Thanks. I don't know yet--the Doc left a message on her phone the other day and did not specificy, but scheduled her to come back in this week.

We can agree to disagree Mike.

I could go on and on, as I'm sure you can. Ultimately, I have more important things to do.

.....

 

[jack of all]

Did blood work June 20th. Just gave blood July 10th and did blood work after donation July 16th. Before blood donation numbers red blood cells 6.00. Hemoglobin 18.0. Hematocrit 53.7. Blood work 6 days after giving blood red blood cells 5.62. Hemoglobin 17.2 Hematocrit 51.2.

Giving blood lowered everything. It lowered Hematocrit 2.5%.

 

[alfresco]

Broscience. Smoscience.

they can test your rbc right after giving blood (cause they should be testing it before) it always drops 7-9 points. def not broscience. DONATE!

Sorry man . . . total BS in my opinion. Been there, done that. Think about it. Or define “right after.” Agree with you about donating though.

Interesting reply. Are you sure? I am due to give blood again after the 12th. I will ask to have them do this this.

Gave blood yesterday AM. No immediate in change in RBC after donating. (Talked with the techs about this also.) Think about it logically . . .
right after you donate whole blood your ratio is unchanged. It takes time. How much? Plasma is the first thing to fill the volume void,
then things balance out depending on your physiology.

Why do you wait 8 weeks between whole blood donations? Because it takes time for your blood to reach homeostasis.