Dutasteride and Finasteride - Absolutely ZERO gains??

[Broseph21]

I'm on the 6th week of 750mg of Test E per week
During the first 5 weeks I took .5mg of Dut everyday, and 2.5~5mg of Fin everyday

I've since dropped it to .5mg of Dut and I'm considering just dropping them and doing the bic

I've had ZERO gains

No water bloat, no strength gains, no libido, no mass gains, no nothing
Just acne and moodiness

Last time I ran 750mg/week (without dut and fin) I completely BLEW UP
Lots of weight and strength gains.. I don't remember when they kicked in, but I'm pretty sure by week 6 I felt SOMETHING


This is driving me insane

Fake gear is not the issue 100% sure... All of the stuff (dut, fin, test) is bought from the pharmacy with a script

 

[odality]

- Are you sure to be into caloric excess?
No weight gain mean being into caloric deficit or maintenance, drug don't matter. Eat more bro.

- Do you sleep well, at least 7 hours per night?


For the water purpose, i know guys that bloat no more than 1Kg water even @1G testo...

 

[Broseph21]

I have gained a bit of weight (~2kg) but that's just from stuffing my face

I know I bloat alot because last cycle I bloated like a water balloon..
So something's wrong here

The only two things that changed since last time are:

-This time I'm taking dut and fin

-I used to pin with long 21g needles and now I'm using short 25g.. maybe the new pins aren't deep enough and I'm wasting gear?

These are the only two things that are different

I don't remember how long it took last time, but man, by 6 weeks I should be feeling SOMETHING

 

[KingKongMan]

Get your blood checked out, maybe your estro is high.. Are you using an AI?

Sounds more likely your gear is bunk though

 

[Broseph21]

If my estro was high at least I'd be bloated
But I'm not even bloating


There is absolutely no chance the gear is bunk.. It's bought from the pharmacy with a script

 

[KingKongMan]

What PCT did you run after your last cycle?

How are your balls?

Could you get an erection before you started this run?

Why don't you take an AI?

How long was your last cycle and how long have you been off?

How fat are you?

 

[Broseph21]

Ran some nolva last time


My nuts are shrinking, so yet more proof the gear is 100% real yet something is preventing it from working


Yes, I had normal libido before getting on, and I still have normal libido while on
No change for the better or worse

I don't take an AI because I have no need for one. I don't have itchy nipples, low libido or bloat
I have it on hand if the symptoms arise, but they haven't


Last cycle was 12 weeks and I've been off for a LONG time (like over a year)

I'm relatively lean.. Visible abs and some vascularity on arms and shoulders, cut quads, but no striations or anything

 

[negaburn9]

I have gained a bit of weight (~2kg) but that's just from stuffing my face

I know I bloat alot because last cycle I bloated like a water balloon..
So something's wrong here

The only two things that changed since last time are:

-This time I'm taking dut and fin

-I used to pin with long 21g needles and now I'm using short 25g.. maybe the new pins aren't deep enough and I'm wasting gear?

These are the only two things that are different

I don't remember how long it took last time, but man, by 6 weeks I should be feeling SOMETHING

fin did hinder my gains from my first cycle. 1 inch is deep enough unless you have excessive fat. Than a 1.5 is needed. You can't be 100% sure your gear is good unless you get a blood test. its $50 from private md labs.

 

[negaburn9]

you don't need an ai? yes you do. taking that much test plus fin or dut (which dramatically lower your bodies natural anti estrogen, DHT) means your estrogen is sky high.

 

[Broseph21]

fin did hinder my gains from my first cycle. 1 inch is deep enough unless you have excessive fat. Than a 1.5 is needed. You can't be 100% sure your gear is good unless you get a blood test. its $50 from private md labs.

how much did fin hinder your gains?
was it mostly mass or strength?

what dose of test and fin were you running?

 

[negaburn9]

how much did fin hinder your gains?
was it mostly mass or strength?

what dose of test and fin were you running?

I gained 10 lbs of muscle but the fin left me fairly soft and killed libido. I have given up on fin I have used it from 0.25mg to 1.25 mg over a two year period. killed libido, weak erections etc etc on even a small dose of 0.25mg a day. On my cycle it was 1mg of fin a day. It was mostly in the strength that suffered, as I did get bigger on 300mg test of 5 weeks, then 400mgs the last 5 weeks. I used 0.5mg of arimidex EOD. If i wasn't taking the fin, I would use less arididex (0.25mg eod) I did blood tests twice during the cycle. the fin had my estrogen high becuse it lowers anti estrogen dht, so I had to up the arimidex to 0.5mg
eod. i started the cycle at 0.25mg eod but with the 1 mg of fin my estrogen was high , out of range. the 0.5mg of arimidex eod brought estrogen into normal range.

 

[Kaladryn]

Wow this thread has a lot of BS in it, why do people post stuff when they know so little?

It's no surprise that megadosing multiple 5ARI's will eliminate a lot of your gains. Conversion to DHT is one of testosterone's main form of effect. DHT has 2x the affinity for the AR than testosterone. Some biochem textbooks actually call testosterone a prohormone.

1mg/day finasteride is the normal dose for hairloss, .2mg/day has been shown in studies to be enough to get 95% of the effects. You are taking over 10 times that. But you NEED DHT, no reason to block it, use a topical DHT blocker for hairloss.

 

[Broseph21]

Wow this thread has a lot of BS in it, why do people post stuff when they know so little?

It's no surprise that megadosing multiple 5ARI's will eliminate a lot of your gains. Conversion to DHT is one of testosterone's main form of effect. DHT has 2x the affinity for the AR than testosterone. Some biochem textbooks actually call testosterone a prohormone.

1mg/day finasteride is the normal dose for hairloss, .2mg/day has been shown in studies to be enough to get 95% of the effects. You are taking over 10 times that. But you NEED DHT, no reason to block it, use a topical DHT blocker for hairloss.

Guess it's either the hair or gains

I'll try dropping the fin and dut for a week or two and see if I get any benefits..
Then I'll see if I can introduce them back slowly without harm


If not.. guess I'll just have to grow a beard and reach for the bic

 

[Broseph21]

Update:

Just checked the needles
My old 21g's were 1 1/2 inch.. the 25g's are smaller but I thought they were 1".. turns out they're 5/8"

So, not only is there the possibility that the fin and dut have been killing all my gains, there's the possibility the gear wasn't going deep enough and I was just absorbing a tiny ammount

Really frustrating

6 weeks 'in' and I'm basically at week 0.. It will be like starting from scratch, and I have no orals to kick start it (I only use pharma gear), so it will be a very frustrating waiting process

What a waste of time and money, I'm a fucking moron.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Wow this thread has a lot of BS in it, why do people post stuff when they know so little?

It's no surprise that megadosing multiple 5ARI's will eliminate a lot of your gains. Conversion to DHT is one of testosterone's main form of effect. DHT has 2x the affinity for the AR than testosterone. Some biochem textbooks actually call testosterone a prohormone.

1mg/day finasteride is the normal dose for hairloss, .2mg/day has been shown in studies to be enough to get 95% of the effects. You are taking over 10 times that. But you NEED DHT, no reason to block it, use a topical DHT blocker for hairloss.

This has some truth to it, but in regards to MUSCLE, testosterone is the main androgen, NOT DHT. There is a ton of evidence to support this. DHT is NOT needed to get muscle gains from testosterone. However, taking both finasteride AND dutasteride seems like overkill. Dutasteride already blocks two out of the three isozymes of 5alpha-reductase, no need to add finasteride too.
Effect of testosterone supplementation with and without... [JAMA. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Broseph21]

This has some truth to it, but in regards to MUSCLE, testosterone is the main androgen, NOT DHT. There is a ton of evidence to support this. DHT is NOT needed to get muscle gains from testosterone. However, taking both finasteride AND dutasteride seems like overkill. Dutasteride already blocks two out of the three isozymes of 5alpha-reductase, no need to add finasteride too.
Effect of testosterone supplementation with and without... [JAMA. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

What about strength?

Studies with sedentary old men show no difference in strength, but that's with sedentary old men

People on forums claim fin kills their strength

 

[Kaladryn]

This has some truth to it, but in regards to MUSCLE, testosterone is the main androgen, NOT DHT. There is a ton of evidence to support this. DHT is NOT needed to get muscle gains from testosterone. However, taking both finasteride AND dutasteride seems like overkill. Dutasteride already blocks two out of the three isozymes of 5alpha-reductase, no need to add finasteride too.
Effect of testosterone supplementation with and without... [JAMA. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

That study is easy to debunk! The guys with DHT were dryer and harder, so they SEEMED to not gain more weight than the guys without DHT.

DHT has 2x the affinity for the AR than testosterone, period! It doens't "seem" good for weight gain because it doesn't create more E2. DHT blockers increase testosterone levels and thus increase E2 levels.

 

[jaysnook]

I have no problems at all.I have good gains while on finasteride.I just have to keep a anti estrogen on hand.I get a moon face some times near end of cycle.

 

[Incognito1]

I too have no problems gaining whilst on cycle and finasteride. Admittedly I am harder when not on it but the size gains for the past 6 week on are about 6kgs (13lbs) and I am reasonably lean about 11% and not much water. I get fina tablets that are 5mg so I take a 1/4 of a tablet twice per week. Also only on 500mg of test e, so not high dose test.
As for the needle depth I also use slin needles so unless you have excessive BF I dont think your needle size iss the problem