EAT FOOD NOT SUPPLEMENTS

[Pekkerwood]

As anyone who has read my posts can attest, I'm far from an expert on most any subject, however, I would like to add:

I believe whole fruits and vegetables seem to be the preferred source of vitamins all things being equal. However all things aren't equal. I don't need the carbs, sugars, calories. I can't remember to have fresh fruit in my office and home everyday without ending up with a science experiment. I'm just not that regimented. I don't buy or consume enough variety of fruits, vegetables and nuts on a daily basis to give me the comfort level I would like to have. I cannot measure the quantities of macronutrients as easily as my supplements. My supplements fit my lifestyle better in my office.

Even if "whole food" is x percent better, the convenience and consistency of my supplementation means its here to stay for me. If I'm peeing out a little minerals, so be it, I've peed out quite a bit of good wine in my day too.

 

[muscle96ss]

Really? How and why? What happens to an orange from the time that its picked off a tree to the time you put it in a bag that causes this to happen?

jfunk, Mr Magoo, and Smootheavy have pretty much summed it up so I won't elaborate any further. However, I am shocked when reading this thread at the lack of information or mis-information that many board members have on the subject of vitamin/nutrient supplements. This board by far has the most intelligent members of any other bodybuilding related board; yet many people seem to have missed the mark and are being shortsighted and looking only at the "muscle factor" and not taking a whole body/complete system approach. A simple analogy would be if someone is building a race car and they simply keep looking at ways to add more and more horsepower to the car; yet neglect to make upgrades so to the other parts of the car(i.e. transmission, clutch, intake, suspension, etc...). So they end up with a very powerful car but in the end it is not designed to be able to withstand the horsepower and is going to fail. Now when it comes to bodybuilding you are living a lifestyle that puts a lot of excess stress on the body that has a cascade of effects on all the other body systems. You combine that with the stressors of everyday life in the 21st century and the toxins/pollution in the environment that we are forced to deal with on a daily basis and you are going to be doing some serious damage to your body if you are not protected. Therefore supplements(i.e. vitamins, minerals, nutrients, etc..) are highly necessary to give the body what is needed to deal with our lifestyle and protect it from being destroyed. If you think for one minute that you can get all that from the food you are eating then you are sadly mistaken. I am not sure what I can say that will provide proof of this as I used to have a similar way of thought when I was younger. I suggest you do a lot of reading and research and eventually you will come to the same conclusions that I have; I am certain of that.

 

[Ness]

Okay. No need to be defensive. I was only asking for an expansion to your original post.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

jfunk, Mr Magoo, and Smootheavy have pretty much summed it up so I won't elaborate any further. However, I am shocked when reading this thread at the lack of information or mis-information that many board members have on the subject of vitamin/nutrient supplements. This board by far has the most intelligent members of any other bodybuilding related board; yet many people seem to have missed the mark and are being shortsighted and looking only at the "muscle factor" and not taking a whole body/complete system approach. A simple analogy would be if someone is building a race car and they simply keep looking at ways to add more and more horsepower to the car; yet neglect to make upgrades so to the other parts of the car(i.e. transmission, clutch, intake, suspension, etc...). So they end up with a very powerful car but in the end it is not designed to be able to withstand the horsepower and is going to fail. Now when it comes to bodybuilding you are living a lifestyle that puts a lot of excess stress on the body that has a cascade of effects on all the other body systems. You combine that with the stressors of everyday life in the 21st century and the toxins/pollution in the environment that we are forced to deal with on a daily basis and you are going to be doing some serious damage to your body if you are not protected. Therefore supplements(i.e. vitamins, minerals, nutrients, etc..) are highly necessary to give the body what is needed to deal with our lifestyle and protect it from being destroyed. If you think for one minute that you can get all that from the food you are eating then you are sadly mistaken. I am not sure what I can say that will provide proof of this as I used to have a similar way of thought when I was younger. I suggest you do a lot of reading and research and eventually you will come to the same conclusions that I have; I am certain of that.

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree. I hope it didn't seem that I was neg-vitamin. My point is only that vitamin and mineral supp (and probably even protein) supplementation is only necessary when a deficiency is present. When I say deficiency in the medical sense that's a pretty big scope. A normal person may get enough folic acid from the food that he eats but a bodybuilder that puts as you said, massive strains on the body might need 10x as much. Am I the only one who considers macros and micros separately? To me there are two camps - protein, fats, and carbs and then there is fiber, vits, and mins. Using your car analogy, I would say that the macros are the gasoline, and the micros are the oil, transmission fluid, brake fluid, washer fluid. A CAR NEEDS ALL TO RUN WELL.

 

[6.8SPC]

SUPPLEMENTS

One thing I can say is that supplements are a way to get certain specific nutrients which would be impractical, if not impossible to obtain from normal dietary sources. One example of a supplement that I use fairly regularly is Acetyl-L-Carnitine. This micronutrient has been shown to be neuroprotective and enhance brain function. There are also studies that shows no evidence that it does anything. However, anecdotally it seems to work for me and others that I know, so I choose to spend my money(it's relatively inexpensive anyway) on it. Now how in the hell would I get this nutrient in multiple gram amounts through eating a food or foods that had a high content? I'm not sure it even exists in food sources. I was able to find natural sources of Carnitine, but not the acetylated form.(ALCar) Anyway, a situation like this is where I see some supplements having value.

I do agree with Edge's point when it comes to protein, carbs, and fats. The more whole clean foods that I eat, the better I perform and the better I grow no doubt. I just see some supplements like the one I mentioned as having value from a health perspective, bodybuilding or not.

 

[edge250]

One thing I can say is that supplements are a way to get certain specific nutrients which would be impractical, if not impossible to obtain from normal dietary sources. One example of a supplement that I use fairly regularly is Acetyl-L-Carnitine. This micronutrient has been shown to be neuroprotective and enhance brain function. There are also studies that shows no evidence that it does anything. However, anecdotally it seems to work for me and others that I know, so I choose to spend my money(it's relatively inexpensive anyway) on it. Now how in the hell would I get this nutrient in multiple gram amounts through eating a food or foods that had a high content? I'm not sure it even exists in food sources. I was able to find natural sources of Carnitine, but not the acetylated form.(ALCar) Anyway, a situation like this is where I see some supplements having value.

I do agree with Edge's point when it comes to protein, carbs, and fats. The more whole clean foods that I eat, the better I perform and the better I grow no doubt. I just see some supplements like the one I mentioned as having value from a health perspective, bodybuilding or not.

good point.

 

[Armageddon]

There's soo much everyone can argue about here on this subject. Obviously food is better and the better quality you get the better off you'll be. You can say this and that about the foods and fruits but living in farm land and going to fruit stands and what not there's alot ya can learn. If you find a really quality ran farm they often tell you what has been applied to the food. Many areas require it to be posted in the fields of the crops. So we need to learn to be the ultimate consumer and know what we are putting in our bodies. I think the problem with supplements is that people expect more than what they deserve from them. There for supplementatiion not substitute. I'm not going to debate whether BBr's need more as it's all too obvious. But it is all too possible to get in good healthy shape without them. Food is all a "normal' person needs. It's our greed for more, who really wants to eat all that food? Everyones always looking for a short cut, it's just the way of life.

 

[alecaf]

Phil, wouldn't there be a different between supplementing with protein, carbs, fats (which we almost HAVE to do) vs. what he's talking which is mostly micro related (vits and mins)?

I'm thinking yes, two oranges are better than vitamin C pill, almonds and peanuts better than a vitamin E capsule, but I really don't think absorption of regular eggs is as good a good protein isolate or other form of pre-digested protein.

I'm not a dietitian though but that would make sense to me. IMO the articles apply to micros not macros.

correct me if im wrong but i thought eggs were the only fully digestible protein besides milk from our mom. Thats what a biology teacher told me once.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

correct me if im wrong but i thought eggs were the only fully digestible protein besides milk from our mom. Thats what a biology teacher told me once.

Wow. Good question. Complicated answer. Someone will elaborate on this more fully but protein sources have a rating system of absorption and digestibility and eggs I think are rated highest among normal foods - but certain other forms of predigested and hydrolyzed forms of protein such as whey have much higher ratings than standard foods.

 

[muscle96ss]

Okay. No need to be defensive. I was only asking for an expansion to your original post.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to come across as defensive; was just trying to expand on my answer since it was apparent from some of the responses that my way of thinking wasn't as close to the norm as I had expected. My style of writing is very direct and can be mistaken at times for being abrasive or defensive.

 

[rotty]

washer fluid. A CAR NEEDS ALL TO RUN WELL.

I don't mean to be picky here but, I don't think washer fluid is essential to a car running well.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I don't mean to be picky here but, I don't think washer fluid is essential to a car running well.

HAHA!!! Wow that IS picky! I get called out on everything around here!

Hmmm... I guess you're right. All I gots on this one is that your car won't run well if it's wrapped around a telephone pole because you couldn't see out the windshield?

Is that reaching or what?

 

[Thor]

AGREED

jfunk, Mr Magoo, and Smootheavy have pretty much summed it up so I won't elaborate any further. However, I am shocked when reading this thread at the lack of information or mis-information that many board members have on the subject of vitamin/nutrient supplements. This board by far has the most intelligent members of any other bodybuilding related board; yet many people seem to have missed the mark and are being shortsighted and looking only at the "muscle factor" and not taking a whole body/complete system approach. A simple analogy would be if someone is building a race car and they simply keep looking at ways to add more and more horsepower to the car; yet neglect to make upgrades so to the other parts of the car(i.e. transmission, clutch, intake, suspension, etc...). So they end up with a very powerful car but in the end it is not designed to be able to withstand the horsepower and is going to fail. Now when it comes to bodybuilding you are living a lifestyle that puts a lot of excess stress on the body that has a cascade of effects on all the other body systems. You combine that with the stressors of everyday life in the 21st century and the toxins/pollution in the environment that we are forced to deal with on a daily basis and you are going to be doing some serious damage to your body if you are not protected. Therefore supplements(i.e. vitamins, minerals, nutrients, etc..) are highly necessary to give the body what is needed to deal with our lifestyle and protect it from being destroyed. If you think for one minute that you can get all that from the food you are eating then you are sadly mistaken. I am not sure what I can say that will provide proof of this as I used to have a similar way of thought when I was younger. I suggest you do a lot of reading and research and eventually you will come to the same conclusions that I have; I am certain of that.

Good analogy

 

[terryd5150]

HAHA!!! Wow that IS picky! I get called out on everything around here!

Hmmm... I guess you're right. All I gots on this one is that your car won't run well if it's wrapped around a telephone pole because you couldn't see out the windshield?

Is that reaching or what?

No, I think your analogy was perfect as written.


You mentioned folic acid, as an example, stating that most people could probably suffice on what they intake through their normal diet (and most cars will run just fine without wiper fluid).

But, you also specified that to perform OPTIMALLY you might need to supplement folic acid (to perform optimally, or as intended from the factory, your car needs wiper fluid).

Perfect example/analogy, IMHO.