Effective progressive overload methods for advanced

[juggy38]

Interestinnngg..this seems to ride a volume wave a little bit more than I normally do but cool approach.
Recovery would really need to be dialed in as volume isn't set. You're basically trying to beat reps....while adding additional volume.
This is basically a very intense Mike Isratel RP setup lol but on Mike's, guys make progress because its basically a 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% buildup.
This, right off the bat, is 100% intensity. Difficult to do in the long run, at least for me.

Just thinking out loud here, there might not be a real reason to try and beat your RP mini set rep totals from week to week.
Week 1 you hit 200x11, week 2 you hit 200x11 + 4, and week 3, is there a real reason to break 11 and 4 ALONG with adding additional volume?
I bet it can work for some, but just a lot of variables if you want to keep progressing. I would need to choose one, beating reps or adding volume.
One way to alter it might be to have a main top set and backoff set and then "add a RP mini set when you cannot progress the main working set."
Leg Curl
Week 1 - 200x11, 150x16
Week 3 - 200x11 + 5 reps, 150x17
Week 5 - 200x13, 150x17 + 8
Week 7 - 200x14, 150x18

I also wouldnt use the same rotations every week. I need A/B rotations in order to keep progressing, I cannot just do 1 lift for 4 weeks and make jumps every time.
Very interesting approach though. Can you link the meso thread @juggy38 ?

Yes it is definitely more Alexander Bromley/isratel/Chavez volume loading scheme.

And I think your right, keeping the top load static or just slightly pushing it up maybe the last week.

And you’d definitely need an A/B rotation if your training a part 1.5-2x a week.

Chavez is very….titrate volume to almost intolerable….rest….back to damn near Deload volume, repeat.

When he talks about this, his reasoning is overloading via adding weight…with big strong…225+ guys running strong androgens…load increments every 3 weeks and using volume to cause the stressor, keeps from detaching a quad tendon

 

[Cerberus777]

I’ve been watching a few logs from guys on Broderick Chavez’s site and one big guy at Meso. They have progressive High intensity little twist I might try.

A leg day ex:

Leg curl: work to a max 10 rep set
Leg press: same as above
Hacks: work to a top 15-20 rep set
RDL: heavy ass 6-8 rep.

Wk2: you hit your max set, then DC style ONE extra mini set. Like leg cure would be 11 reps, 6 reps.

Week 3…..add one more mini set…so leg curl would be 12,7,4.

Week 4: add one more mini set….Leg curl 13,8,5,3.

Then back to week 1, crank the load up.

The very low volume week 1 is kinda a mini Deload, and week 4 is pretty rough, a 4 mini set RP for two exercises per muscle

Some of my best gains were done with intentional or unintentionally overreaching with a deload that dosnt have you take time off. I've always wondered if timing food and drug increases to go up on the deload week would increase more gains than normal.

 

[qbkilla]

Fucking love em been doin em since 2008 really like lining up the hammer strength with lesser weight as I progress and I still do all to failure with some forced reps too, love GVT as well still highly underrated

How do you implement them? As a finisher? All exercises take to failure?

So for delts, upright rows, lateral side raises, bent over rear delts fly, face pulls? Milos mentioned they can be for the same muscle or different ones but must be 4 different exercises. When I watched him do them with a client, it was many more exercises and not each one to failure. But by the end, the client was fried lol

 

[qbkilla]

I’ve been watching a few logs from guys on Broderick Chavez’s site and one big guy at Meso. They have progressive High intensity little twist I might try.

A leg day ex:

Leg curl: work to a max 10 rep set
Leg press: same as above
Hacks: work to a top 15-20 rep set
RDL: heavy ass 6-8 rep.

Wk2: you hit your max set, then DC style ONE extra mini set. Like leg cure would be 11 reps, 6 reps.

Week 3…..add one more mini set…so leg curl would be 12,7,4.

Week 4: add one more mini set….Leg curl 13,8,5,3.

Then back to week 1, crank the load up.

The very low volume week 1 is kinda a mini Deload, and week 4 is pretty rough, a 4 mini set RP for two exercises per muscle

I like this idea. Much better than the way Mike Israetel reccomends where we add sets each week untill we basically need a deload.

I've tried this, example 8 sets for triceps, add two a week, then a deload was needed. I found that as I just added entire sets, my focus wasn't there. I just had too many sets and was going through the motions rather than "I only have 8sets, make them intense". They way you described seems like a happy medium to add volume but not turn a good base workout into a high volume marathon.

 

[xpoc]

I’ve been watching a few logs from guys on Broderick Chavez’s site and one big guy at Meso. They have progressive High intensity little twist I might try.

A leg day ex:

Leg curl: work to a max 10 rep set
Leg press: same as above
Hacks: work to a top 15-20 rep set
RDL: heavy ass 6-8 rep.

Wk2: you hit your max set, then DC style ONE extra mini set. Like leg cure would be 11 reps, 6 reps.

Week 3…..add one more mini set…so leg curl would be 12,7,4.

Week 4: add one more mini set….Leg curl 13,8,5,3.

Then back to week 1, crank the load up.

The very low volume week 1 is kinda a mini Deload, and week 4 is pretty rough, a 4 mini set RP for two exercises per muscle

I really like the idea of this programming. So week 1 leg day is just those 4 exercises with one "working" set correct? No calves or any other exercises?

 

[marssel]

Just thinking out loud, another option if you want to keep total volume down then instead of adding more volume on all exercises, only add the extra sets and RP on certain movements. For example, only progressively add the volume on hacks for a few weeks and then deload on that movement while conversely adding the same volume sets and RP to a hamstring movement. I also realize that this strategy may not be as good or as productive for someone who is maybe trying to bring up a "lagging' body part or just wants to improve a certain body part or a specific exercise. Again, just thinking out loud to consider real world fatigue if that could be a factor in limiting progress or growth. GREAT DISCUSSION!!

My only question is and I’m not being a smartass but why woukd one seem to avoid training to failure it’s the fucking best thing in the gym for me always has been

 

[marssel]

How do you implement them? As a finisher? All exercises take to failure?

So for delts, upright rows, lateral side raises, bent over rear delts fly, face pulls? Milos mentioned they can be for the same muscle or different ones but must be 4 different exercises. When I watched him do them with a client, it was many more exercises and not each one to failure. But by the end, the client was fried lol

Yea almost always as my last thing though I haven’t in a while but I’ll do a giant on opposed say like arms cable press downs, hammer curls, cable skull crushers, cable curls and then say do a drop with the v bar press down; go do some calves and pose a little then do some more arm work but with a big body part a giant fine right ends the day imo

 

[psychor]

My only question is and I’m not being a smartass but why woukd one seem to avoid training to failure it’s the fucking best thing in the gym for me always has been

Yes train to failure. I agree. OOOOHRAA Devildog!!

 

[juggy38]

I really like the idea of this programming. So week 1 leg day is just those 4 exercises with one "working" set correct? No calves or any other exercises?

I train calves on upper days, because if I do them first on leg day, I feel unstable, and if they are last on leg day….I don’t do them lol.

But basically the gist is, one to two exercises per body part, assuming a frequency of 1.5-2x per week.

And yea, week one is just intelligently ramp up to a top really fucking hard top set within a common sense rep range for that exercise.

That is your baseline. Then you add a “mini set”…like DC style….10-15 deep breaths.

What @TheOtherOne55 is hashing out in his head, which I agree, is maybe holding that topset constant, and adding mini sets.

After the 4 week wave, you go back to one really fucking hard set, hopefully heavier than the original base volume week.

It’s basically an aggressive volume ramping “low volume” progression…if that makes sense…..

 

[juggy38]

My only question is and I’m not being a smartass but why woukd one seem to avoid training to failure it’s the fucking best thing in the gym for me always has been

Well technically, even on the base volume week, that one set should be damn near failure. Just like a DC program, except we are not doing 2 more mini sets every week.

We go from no mini sets, to one, two, then finally 3 mini sets….on two exercises….you should be pretty fucking fried week 4. So you go back to one hard set to recover and add load to the bar.

I have never tried it, but I makes sense on paper. Just intrigued me, and I think I’m gonna try it

 

[juggy38]

Some of my best gains were done with intentional or unintentionally overreaching with a deload that dosnt have you take time off. I've always wondered if timing food and drug increases to go up on the deload week would increase more gains than normal.

Chavez DOES escalate drugs and calories with volume….but he’s OCD/autistic….I don’t want to log all that lol

But it wouldn’t be hard to pop 50mg anadrol weeks 3&4 pre workout to “escalate mg” then drop it week 1&2

 

[3BILLS]

My only question is and I’m not being a smartass but why woukd one seem to avoid training to failure it’s the fucking best thing in the gym for me always has been

Ill give you idea for me

Im deadlifting 6 plates plus
4 plate rows

After a while just going into the gym and training to failure on the exercises just doesn’t work anymore

I love these exercises and love training to failure to bro but it gets to a point where you start regressing or get frustrated when progress stalls.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

I’ve been watching a few logs from guys on Broderick Chavez’s site and one big guy at Meso. They have progressive High intensity little twist I might try.

A leg day ex:

Leg curl: work to a max 10 rep set
Leg press: same as above
Hacks: work to a top 15-20 rep set
RDL: heavy ass 6-8 rep.

Wk2: you hit your max set, then DC style ONE extra mini set. Like leg cure would be 11 reps, 6 reps.

Week 3…..add one more mini set…so leg curl would be 12,7,4.

Week 4: add one more mini set….Leg curl 13,8,5,3.

Then back to week 1, crank the load up.

The very low volume week 1 is kinda a mini Deload, and week 4 is pretty rough, a 4 mini set RP for two exercises per muscle

I like this a lot. This is a cool way of building in a way to recover from systematic fatigue without having a formalized deload week and the low volume week is still fairly productive training. I might try this on some lifts. But if you did something like this on deadlift you're probably going to get slain on week 4 unless the last few sets are very sub-max effort and mostly just adding to total session volume for that lift.

 

[juggy38]

I like this a lot. This is a cool way of building in a way to recover from systematic fatigue without having a formalized deload week and the low volume week is still fairly productive training. I might try this on some lifts. But if you did something like this on deadlift you're probably going to get slain on week 4 unless the last few sets are very sub-max effort and mostly just adding to total session volume for that lift.

Oh definitely a No-no on deadlifts/GMs RDLs, I’d stay with straight sets.

I’d just do something like the 2/3rds method..

Wk1: top set 315x8

Wk2 topset 315x8, 315x5 (about 2/3 the max reps)

Wk3 315x8, 315x5, 315x5

Or if you like hip hinges in higher rep ranges, do a 10% load drop

Wk2: 315x8, 285x?

Wk3: 315x8, 285x?, 265x?

 

[marssel]

Yes train to failure. I agree. OOOOHRAA Devildog!!

Ohhhrah kill kill blood makes the grass grow and the sand smell great

 

[xpoc]

I’ve been watching a few logs from guys on Broderick Chavez’s site and one big guy at Meso. They have progressive High intensity little twist I might try.

A leg day ex:

Leg curl: work to a max 10 rep set
Leg press: same as above
Hacks: work to a top 15-20 rep set
RDL: heavy ass 6-8 rep.

Wk2: you hit your max set, then DC style ONE extra mini set. Like leg cure would be 11 reps, 6 reps.

Week 3…..add one more mini set…so leg curl would be 12,7,4.

Week 4: add one more mini set….Leg curl 13,8,5,3.

Then back to week 1, crank the load up.

The very low volume week 1 is kinda a mini Deload, and week 4 is pretty rough, a 4 mini set RP for two exercises per muscle

Juggy,
Is there a link or something you can direct me to so I can see what this looks like more in depth?

 

[qbkilla]

Chavez DOES escalate drugs and calories with volume….but he’s OCD/autistic….I don’t want to log all that lol

But it wouldn’t be hard to pop 50mg anadrol weeks 3&4 pre workout to “escalate mg” then drop it week 1&2

Shouldn't someone be making progress on the initial set to track true progress? Then the mini set is just extra volume, but you should aim to progress on that.

I'd be more conservative with adding the mini set. Maybe to just 1 exercise per part per meso cycle. And only add a mini set every other week.

So if biceps is
Drag curl 3x12
Preacher curl 3x12

Add weight once you exceed 12 in the first set each week per usual. Then week 3 add the mini set to week 3. Then another at week 5.

But the very first set is always the barometer. If you can't increase weight or reps on that set for 2 weeks, maybe time to switch it out for cable curl.

 

[juggy38]

Shouldn't someone be making progress on the initial set to track true progress? Then the mini set is just extra volume, but you should aim to progress on that.

I'd be more conservative with adding the mini set. Maybe to just 1 exercise per part per meso cycle. And only add a mini set every other week.

So if biceps is
Drag curl 3x12
Preacher curl 3x12

Add weight once you exceed 12 in the first set each week per usual. Then week 3 add the mini set to week 3. Then another at week 5.

But the very first set is always the barometer. If you can't increase weight or reps on that set for 2 weeks, maybe time to switch it out for cable curl.

Not if you’re using volume to drive the overload. That’s not how his programs work.

When you progress load, you’re writing a program that lets you recover enough or fully, to create a new maximal tension stimulus.

Chavez programs use volume and fatigue to drive progress. You are not supposed to be fully recovered later on in the weeks.

The volume is supposed to be easy, tolerable , hard, wipe you out…Deload.

I’m sure he adds load if the exercise moves out of the rep range, but if you add load on set one from last week, AND you have to carry that load for another set added from last week that thrashed you…..it won’t go well

 

[qbkilla]

Not if you’re using volume to drive the overload. That’s not how his programs work.

When you progress load, you’re writing a program that lets you recover enough or fully, to create a new maximal tension stimulus.

Chavez programs use volume and fatigue to drive progress. You are not supposed to be fully recovered later on in the weeks.

The volume is supposed to be easy, tolerable , hard, wipe you out…Deload.

I’m sure he adds load if the exercise moves out of the rep range, but if you add load on set one from last week, AND you have to carry that load for another set added from last week that thrashed you…..it won’t go well

True. I wouldn't necessarily run it the way he does. But you can add volume and progressive overload it's not like If you do you will immediately overtrain. You can add volume aggressive or slow as you want.

For example rear delts. Monday is shoulder day. The heavy exercise is rear delt rows 3x12 aim to add weight or reps to that first set. Then after do reverse pec Dec week 1 so you fail in the 20-30 rep range. Say week 1 25.

So week two you use the reverse pec Dec again make sure you get 30, may need a mini set. Week 3 ..35. And so on. Many ways to do it.

I think the overall question, how long does Chavez say we should train before needing a deload? 4 weeks? I think the faster we push the gas the sooner we need that week off. Do we want to push so hard that we need to deload every 5th week, or push not as hard and aim to be wiped out after 12 weeks

 

[juggy38]

True. I wouldn't necessarily run it the way he does. But you can add volume and progressive overload it's not like If you do you will immediately overtrain. You can add volume aggressive or slow as you want.

For example rear delts. Monday is shoulder day. The heavy exercise is rear delt rows 3x12 aim to add weight or reps to that first set. Then after do reverse pec Dec week 1 so you fail in the 20-30 rep range. Say week 1 25.

So week two you use the reverse pec Dec again make sure you get 30, may need a mini set. Week 3 ..35. And so on. Many ways to do it.

I think the overall question, how long does Chavez say we should train before needing a deload? 4 weeks? I think the faster we push the gas the sooner we need that week off. Do we want to push so hard that we need to deload every 5th week, or push not as hard and aim to be wiped out after 12 weeks

Oh I agree, I like the double progression method, and I have never ramped volume in a BB plan, but have waved volume in my older powerlifting plans.


From his videos and talks…he usually likes to do 14-16 week “courses” starting from 70ish sets a week…slowly crawling up to 100 sets a week for the next 6 weeks. Week 8 or the halfway point he drops volume back to 80ish sets, and the next 7 weeks crawl up to 110-120 sets. Then it’s a week off, then assess health markers, soft tissue, psyche, body comp…then plan the next phase