Effective progressive overload methods for advanced

[qbkilla]

Oh I agree, I like the double progression method, and I have never ramped volume in a BB plan, but have waved volume in my older powerlifting plans.


From his videos and talks…he usually likes to do 14-16 week “courses” starting from 70ish sets a week…slowly crawling up to 100 sets a week for the next 6 weeks. Week 8 or the halfway point he drops volume back to 80ish sets, and the next 7 weeks crawl up to 110-120 sets. Then it’s a week off, then assess health markers, soft tissue, psyche, body comp…then plan the next phase

Seems like a decent method but doesn't have to be as complicated as he makes it. Doesn't he have Asperger's? A little OCD for my taste lol

 

[danieltx]

Not if you’re using volume to drive the overload. That’s not how his programs work.

When you progress load, you’re writing a program that lets you recover enough or fully, to create a new maximal tension stimulus.

Chavez programs use volume and fatigue to drive progress. You are not supposed to be fully recovered later on in the weeks.

The volume is supposed to be easy, tolerable , hard, wipe you out…Deload.

I’m sure he adds load if the exercise moves out of the rep range, but if you add load on set one from last week, AND you have to carry that load for another set added from last week that thrashed you…..it won’t go well

True. I wouldn't necessarily run it the way he does. But you can add volume and progressive overload it's not like If you do you will immediately overtrain. You can add volume aggressive or slow as you want.

For example rear delts. Monday is shoulder day. The heavy exercise is rear delt rows 3x12 aim to add weight or reps to that first set. Then after do reverse pec Dec week 1 so you fail in the 20-30 rep range. Say week 1 25.

So week two you use the reverse pec Dec again make sure you get 30, may need a mini set. Week 3 ..35. And so on. Many ways to do it.

I think the overall question, how long does Chavez say we should train before needing a deload? 4 weeks? I think the faster we push the gas the sooner we need that week off. Do we want to push so hard that we need to deload every 5th week, or push not as hard and aim to be wiped out after 12 weeks

Oh I agree, I like the double progression method, and I have never ramped volume in a BB plan, but have waved volume in my older powerlifting plans.


From his videos and talks…he usually likes to do 14-16 week “courses” starting from 70ish sets a week…slowly crawling up to 100 sets a week for the next 6 weeks. Week 8 or the halfway point he drops volume back to 80ish sets, and the next 7 weeks crawl up to 110-120 sets. Then it’s a week off, then assess health markers, soft tissue, psyche, body comp…then plan the next phase

This is a great example of why many struggle with progress - I've never put any time into thinking about stuff like this for my training.

If I'm feeling run down I take a day off. If I'm feeling good I train as many days in a row as I can. When I get in the gym I want 2.5lbs. - 5lbs. more for the same reps or the same weight for more reps. I've never thought deloads, mesocycles, training blocks, ramping volume, none of that shit.

Find the movements you feel stress the target muscle the best and get as strong as you can on them over time. That's how you train to pack on tons of size.

 

[qbkilla]

This is a great example of why many struggle with progress - I've never put any time into thinking about stuff like this for my training.

If I'm feeling run down I take a day off. If I'm feeling good I train as many days in a row as I can. When I get in the gym I want 2.5lbs. - 5lbs. more for the same reps or the same weight for more reps. I've never thought deloads, mesocycles, training blocks, ramping volume, none of that shit.

Find the movements you feel stress the target muscle the best and get as strong as you can on them over time. That's how you train to pack on tons of size.

I agree for the most part I don't like the Mike Israetel Chavez "science nerds" terminology they insist on such as meso cycles and calling a week off a deload, and lol at Chavez calling his time before a week off a "course" good God. I do use the terminology because that's what people call them now days.

One thing I do much different than you described, I never take a day off. It's 5 training days 2 rest/cardio.if I'm feeling fatigued I push through until I'm so beat up I take a whole week off.

From your post though it looks like you train e every day, no planned rest days unless you feel you need one? I've never tried that, always incorporated 2 rest days a week, but that method is interesting and it obviously works for you and does seem logical.

 

[xpoc]

This is a great example of why many struggle with progress - I've never put any time into thinking about stuff like this for my training.

If I'm feeling run down I take a day off. If I'm feeling good I train as many days in a row as I can. When I get in the gym I want 2.5lbs. - 5lbs. more for the same reps or the same weight for more reps. I've never thought deloads, mesocycles, training blocks, ramping volume, none of that shit.

Find the movements you feel stress the target muscle the best and get as strong as you can on them over time. That's how you train to pack on tons of size.

The never ending debate as to what works best...when we have examples of everything but nothing working best. Some of the biggest guys in the game keep detailed log books, track EVERYTHING including sleep/food in addition to loads, sets, reps etc. Dorian Yates, Jordan Peters, Dante Trudel, Dusty Hanshaw. Then, you have guys who are purely instinctual like Phil Hernon. He trained as many days as he could, took a day off when he felt he needed it and ate only when hungry. Personally, I find value in structured training blocks with progressive overload...followed by a structured deload/deconditioning...and then repeat. Mentally, that is what is easiest for me to wrap my head around. I think this is a left brain/right brain thing. Some guys like science and math.... some guys like arts and crafts.

 

[danieltx]

The never ending debate as to what works best...when we have examples of everything but nothing working best. Some of the biggest guys in the game keep detailed log books, track EVERYTHING including sleep/food in addition to loads, sets, reps etc. Dorian Yates, Jordan Peters, Dante Trudel, Dusty Hanshaw. Then, you have guys who are purely instinctual like Phil Hernon. He trained as many days as he could, took a day off when he felt he needed it and ate only when hungry. Personally, I find value in structured training blocks with progressive overload...followed by a structured deload/deconditioning...and then repeat. Mentally, that is what is easiest for me to wrap my head around. I think this is a left brain/right brain thing. Some guys like science and math.... some guys like arts and crafts.

That's what it's all about. Excellent analogy.

 

[danieltx]

I agree for the most part I don't like the Mike Israetel Chavez "science nerds" terminology they insist on such as meso cycles and calling a week off a deload, and lol at Chavez calling his time before a week off a "course" good God. I do use the terminology because that's what people call them now days.

One thing I do much different than you described, I never take a day off. It's 5 training days 2 rest/cardio.if I'm feeling fatigued I push through until I'm so beat up I take a whole week off.

From your post though it looks like you train e every day, no planned rest days unless you feel you need one? I've never tried that, always incorporated 2 rest days a week, but that method is interesting and it obviously works for you and does seem logical.

I generally train 3 on 1 off but I don't make that a hard rule - if I'm feeling good I'll go 4-5 or however many it is in a row until I feel I need a break. When I was on my rebound last year I was doing stretches of 10 days in a row training. And conversely if I take a day off but wake up the next day not feeling all the way recovered then I'll take that day off too.

Putting hard rules on things is one of the biggest mistakes in bodybuilding. There are many things that are good as general guidelines but we shouldn't become militant about them because that limits progress.

 

[juggy38]

This is a great example of why many struggle with progress - I've never put any time into thinking about stuff like this for my training.

If I'm feeling run down I take a day off. If I'm feeling good I train as many days in a row as I can. When I get in the gym I want 2.5lbs. - 5lbs. more for the same reps or the same weight for more reps. I've never thought deloads, mesocycles, training blocks, ramping volume, none of that shit.

Find the movements you feel stress the target muscle the best and get as strong as you can on them over time. That's how you train to pack on tons of size.

Oh I’m an old school DC die hard, I agree . I was just regurgitating all of Chavez’s ranting best I could.

I will mix it up a little if I get in the gym and the first two exercises are complete shit due to sleep/food/stress.

I don’t do DC RP much anymore, but the log book and attacking Each set I kept.

 

[psychor]

I generally train 3 on 1 off but I don't make that a hard rule - if I'm feeling good I'll go 4-5 or however many it is in a row until I feel I need a break. When I was on my rebound last year I was doing stretches of 10 days in a row training. And conversely if I take a day off but wake up the next day not feeling all the way recovered then I'll take that day off too.

Putting hard rules on things is one of the biggest mistakes in bodybuilding. There are many things that are good as general guidelines but we shouldn't become militant about them because that limits progress.

In my(our) pursuit to find the "magic" or "perfect" training program, I sometimes think that I/we overthink over analyze things in our effort to ensure maximum progress. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, however if we research and test our concepts or ideas because in the end if I/we conclude that our consistent and basic strategies done consistently over time will produce the best or most desirable results, then at least we can possibly demean or exclude altogether certain ideas or strategies.

Still to this day before every workout I find myself possibly overthinking the details which could offer some benefit. But most of the time after the workout, I see that if I just do smart and efficient hard work, I will have good success. In other words, if I concentrate on completing good reps with enough resistance while doing it enough to spur as much growth as possible, then it was a "successful" workout to me.

I think it was Lou Ferigno who said that....."bodybuilding isn't something that you think about....it's something that you DO"! My .02 cents

 

[qbkilla]

Anyone ever used these? When I think giant set I think Milos 4 different exercises consecutive I've liked. This is different...

Giant Sets
Giant sets give you a certain weight to lift, an RIR range to hit (usually 0-4 RIR), and a goal of total reps over as many sets as it takes. An example is aiming to do 100lbs for however many sets it takes to get 60 total reps, while taking normal rest between each set. Such an approach can take the focus off of having to match or exceed the per-set reps you did last week, and can thus let you super-focus on technique and the mind-muscle connection, thus potentially improving both and getting more out of the training with exercises than can demand lots of technique and mind-muscle connection to be effective. If you’d like to be super precise in counting sets for your volume landmarks, we recommend counting giant sets at 2/3 of the contribution of straight sets, such that if you did 6 total sets to get to your giant set rep target, you can count that as 4 sets of “straight set equivalency” in terms of stimulus and fatigue. This discount is because with a higher focus on technique and mind-muscle connection and a lower focus on getting as many reps per set as possible, giant sets likely don’t cause as much fatigue as straight sets.

These are excellent for side delts, and probably more worthwhile for them than any other muscle group except for rear delts perhaps. Side delt exercises are often very tempting to cheat with, especially if rep targets are clear and difficult to hit. By taking the pressure off of per-set reps, better technique can be worked on

Side Delt Growth Training Tips

Here are some helpful tips for your side delt training from Chief Sport Scientist, Dr. Mike Israetel

rpstrength.com

 

[marssel]

It’s not really a giant set it’s just training to failure repeatedly until
U hit a certain #, you’d be better served in this style by GVT or just do your giant sets I don’t see whittling down to 3 and 4 rep sets 10 plus times as the best way to go yes it’ll work, everything works to a degree, but this seems off, yes I know you can modulate the weight but this seems just like more trying to fix what already works for the sake of being different.

 

[5Noles]

It’s not really a giant set it’s just training to failure repeatedly until
U hit a certain #, you’d be better served in this style by GVT or just do your giant sets I don’t see whittling down to 3 and 4 rep sets 10 plus times as the best way to go yes it’ll work, everything works to a degree, but this seems off, yes I know you can modulate the weight but this seems just like more trying to fix what already works for the sake of being different.

John Meadows really put me on to training arms & shoulders differently from other body parts. When blasting the injuries pile up fast for me.
I use FST-7 (similar to what QBkiller is describing) or multiple rounds of giant sets. I do agree with Marssel that multiple sets prior to failure is inefficient. However, this way I do get a lot of volume, reach failure eventually and keep joints healthy.

 

[marssel]

John Meadows really put me on to training arms & shoulders differently from other body parts. When blasting the injuries pile up fast for me.
I use FST-7 (similar to what QBkiller is describing) or multiple rounds of giant sets. I do agree with Marssel that multiple sets prior to failure is inefficient. However, this way I do get a lot of volume, reach failure eventually and keep joints healthy.

Thanks and I love FST-7 especially for forearms and calves, delts-arms-tris too but calves and forearms go beast on it and done right the pain is delicious

 

[Brock456]

John Meadows really put me on to training arms & shoulders differently from other body parts. When blasting the injuries pile up fast for me.
I use FST-7 (similar to what QBkiller is describing) or multiple rounds of giant sets. I do agree with Marssel that multiple sets prior to failure is inefficient. However, this way I do get a lot of volume, reach failure eventually and keep joints healthy.

What is FST-7? I know Hany uses this with his clients. I never got to fully understand it though

 

[marssel]

What is FST-7? I know Hany uses this with his clients. I never got to fully understand it though

7 sets 7 reps 7 seconds hard static stretching between sets was how it started I assume it’s not modified but I started it that way in either 2008 or 2009 and it fucking worked.

 

[5Noles]

What is FST-7? I know Hany uses this with his clients. I never got to fully understand it though

I do 7 sets 10-12 reps 25 sec. rest between sets.
I often use FST-7 to start for arms/ delts, especially during a “blast” when joints are banged up but recovery is amazing. FST-7 allows me to fully pump muscle and pre-fatigue before sets to failure.

Hany does FST-7 as finisher for each body part being trained for pump & extra volume. “The goal is to bring as many vitamins, minerals, amino acids, blood, oxygen, etc. into the muscle and stretch the fascia surrounding it to help encourage maximal muscle growth.“

 

[marssel]

I do 7 sets 10-12 reps 25 sec. rest between sets.
I often use FST-7 to start for arms/ delts, especially during a “blast” when joints are banged up but recovery is amazing. FST-7 allows me to fully pump muscle and pre-fatigue before sets to failure.

Hany does FST-7 as finisher for each body part being trained for pump & extra volume. “The goal is to bring as many vitamins, minerals, amino acids, blood, oxygen, etc. into the muscle and stretch the fascia surrounding it to help encourage maximal muscle growth.“

You don’t do the stretching between sets?

 

[5Noles]

You don’t do the stretching between sets?

Honestly, no.
Thx for critique. Will be mindful of stretching in future.

 

[qbkilla]

I do 7 sets 10-12 reps 25 sec. rest between sets.
I often use FST-7 to start for arms/ delts, especially during a “blast” when joints are banged up but recovery is amazing. FST-7 allows me to fully pump muscle and pre-fatigue before sets to failure.

Hany does FST-7 as finisher for each body part being trained for pump & extra volume. “The goal is to bring as many vitamins, minerals, amino acids, blood, oxygen, etc. into the muscle and stretch the fascia surrounding it to help encourage maximal muscle growth.“

My only issue would be, if your fatiguing and pumping before your hard sets, how do you measure progressive overload accurately?

So say for biceps my main exercise is barbell curl. I want to add reps or 2.5 to the bar each week to get stronger. But if I'm doing 7x10 on the cable before, isn't it harder to add weights or reps to my main exercise?

 

[TheOtherOne55]

My only issue would be, if your fatiguing and pumping before your hard sets, how do you measure progressive overload accurately?

So say for biceps my main exercise is barbell curl. I want to add reps or 2.5 to the bar each week to get stronger. But if I'm doing 7x10 on the cable before, isn't it harder to add weights or reps to my main exercise?

Off topic, I would not use progressive overload on your biceps. Personally, I do not know anyone who has had great arm growth pushing curl weight. The ones who have use very high rep ranges.

Aside from that, any FST like program which is essentially metabolic training, should probably be done after any loading sets (for all body parts)

 

[qbkilla]

Off topic, I would not use progressive overload on your biceps. Personally, I do not know anyone who has had great arm growth pushing curl weight. The ones who have use very high rep ranges.

Aside from that, any FST like program which is essentially metabolic training, should probably be done after any loading sets (for all body parts)

Glad you said this. Deep down I agree and feel like for most volume and pump are better for things like rear side delts, biceps,...and even ticeps maybe?

But.... I'm so conditioned to focus on adding weight or reps I usually end up having both elements in a program. Example 1 rp set dip machine, 1rp set drag curls. Then, super sets and pump the arms up after 15-25 rep range.

Would you recommend to just ditch the heavy completely and focus solely on higher reps and perfect form for the smaller muscles like biceps?