Effects of high Estradiol while on cycle

[Rickd]

Just curious what effects high estogens have on guys while on cycle...

I am experiencing less gains and ED while on a Test C only cycle of 400mgs EW.
Also HCG 250iu 2x week.

I just started .25 arimidex EOD and seems to be improving.

 

[Fitness 500]

I am experiencing less gains and ED while on a Test C only cycle of 400mgs EW..

How long have you been on cycle? and what do you mean by experiencing less gains?

Less gains that what?

 

[Rickd]

Sorry, forgot to fill in the blanks....

I'm 4 weeks in on this one.


The last cycle I ran was Test E at 250mgs EW for 12 weeks.

Very good cycle, felt great for the entire 12 weeks. Increased libido, increased appetite, gained 15 lbs and kept about 7. No water retention or other bad sides. Didn't need any anti e's or HCG during cycle and ended with clomid/nolva pct.

I expected similar results with Test C and wanted to run the HCG to avoid the shrinkage and fast recovery.

 

[Rickd]

Ok, I have dropped dose of Test C to 250 mgs EW and 500iu HCG twice EW.

The water retention has been unbelievable. The .25mgs of arimidex has brought that down and starting to feel a lot better. I think I will go with half a tab of the Arimidex ever day.

Hair thinning has been pretty serious too. I'm using 5% Minoxidil + 5% Azelaic Acid every day topical.

I have Dutasteride and Finasteride from the research companies but have read such bad side effects and loss of sex drive permanently that I have not used it.

What's the point of having some size and looking good or having a full head of hair if you can't fuck...

 

[Ehren]

Ok, I have dropped dose of Test C to 250 mgs EW and 500iu HCG twice EW.

The water retention has been unbelievable. The .25mgs of arimidex has brought that down and starting to feel a lot better. I think I will go with half a tab of the Arimidex ever day.

Hair thinning has been pretty serious too. I'm using 5% Minoxidil + 5% Azelaic Acid every day topical.

I have Dutasteride and Finasteride from the research companies but have read such bad side effects and loss of sex drive permanently that I have not used it.

What's the point of having some size and looking good or having a full head of hair if you can't fuck...

^^ True words right there! Having muscle is great, but a floppy schlong is not a sacrifice worth making.

IMO, 500iu of hCG is far too much. It's pretty certain that the bloat from this cycle is from the hCG. Over 350iu per inject, E2 really skyrockets. For me, it even rises enough to bloat me 3-4 days after the inject at 250iu. So, Adex is a good addition.

If you're using it from the start, I'd knock it WAY down to 150iu spaced no less than 4 days apart. You're maintaining, not trying to restart at this point.

4 or more days apart: With hCG, there's an initial rise in testicular activity, test output etc. the first day you inject, then again about 72 hours later. By injecting before that time, you kill the second spike.

Were it me, I'd keep test at 500, stop the hCG until the last 3 weeks of the cycle. Keep the Adex in at 500mg of Test with no hCG and your nuts will be fine. Test alone isn't that hard to recover from.

When you do restart the hCG 3 weeks out, I'd do no more than 250iu E4thD and supplement with some NAC or Glutathione to make sure there's no desensitizing from the hCG. Probably won't be at only 250iu, but it's cheap, so why not use NAC?

Just my .02...

 

[Rickd]

Anyone else see bloat and water retention from this much HCG?

Thanks for the advice bud. I am going to lay off the HCG for a couple weeks and see if this cycle starts to feel right. So far it's almost like bunk gear. No surge in libido, no strength gains, no increase in appetite.

Today's my 4th week. Nothing but bloating and loss of sex drive. Just doesn't seem right at all. I hope this stuff really is Test C and not deca or something slipped in it's place....

 

[Rickd]

I take a product called Protandim that naturally upgrades your Glutathione production 300%.

This helps with HCG?

 

[Ehren]

I've never heard of Protandim, but if that's what it does, it should work to protect Leydig cells from hCG stress.

Test C and E take some people 5-6 weeks to feel like they're "on", so give it a week or two and get the E2 down in the meantime.

To be honest, you'd need to drop the hCG on order to see if your Test is bunk or not. If you got it from a sponsor here, I doubt it. But the high E2 and bloat alone could be only from the hCG...or the hCG and Test

But you can't tell as long as you keep taking the hCG.

 

[julyaric720]

Really good thread!

 

[Kaladryn]

On 250mg test .25mg EOD adex is fine, on 500mg test you will want .25mg ED, but you probably won't need more than that. As others have said, drop the HCG to 250iu 2x/week. Too much HCG will increase aromatase activity and lower your immune system.

 

[Fitness 500]

On 250mg test .25mg EOD adex is fine, on 500mg test you will want .25mg ED, but you probably won't need more than that. As others have said, drop the HCG to 250iu 2x/week. Too much HCG will increase aromatase activity and lower your immune system.

I just lowered my Test to 250mg/wk from 1000mg/wk. I was taking Adex at 1mg/EOD and I was thinking I should lower it. I just ready your post above and do you think I should also lower my dose to .25mg/ED ??

 

[Kaladryn]

I just lowered my Test to 250mg/wk from 1000mg/wk. I was taking Adex at 1mg/EOD and I was thinking I should lower it. I just ready your post above and do you think I should also lower my dose to .25mg/ED ??

I would, use the lowest dose of AI possible to remove the sides from E2.

E2 too high is bad for you, E2 too low might be even worse.

 

[Rickd]

You know, I started this post at first thinking it was a dumb question and there would be a lot of flaming going on, but you guys are really helpful.

You guys have shared more info than most of the other posts I have been reading. I always read as much as I can before asking questions to see if the answers are already there.

Thank you Ehren and Kaladryn.....



you can search pubmed.gov on Protandim. It lowers blood pressure for my body builder friends, gave me more energy and boosts glutathion 300%.

Contact me to try it.... there's a lot of bunk stuff on Amazon

 

[Rickd]

Labwork is back,

What do you guys think?

 

[ManoftheWorld]

^^ True words right there! Having muscle is great, but a floppy schlong is not a sacrifice worth making.

IMO, 500iu of hCG is far too much. It's pretty certain that the bloat from this cycle is from the hCG. Over 350iu per inject, E2 really skyrockets. For me, it even rises enough to bloat me 3-4 days after the inject at 250iu. So, Adex is a good addition.

If you're using it from the start, I'd knock it WAY down to 150iu spaced no less than 4 days apart. You're maintaining, not trying to restart at this point.

4 or more days apart: With hCG, there's an initial rise in testicular activity, test output etc. the first day you inject, then again about 72 hours later. By injecting before that time, you kill the second spike.

Were it me, I'd keep test at 500, stop the hCG until the last 3 weeks of the cycle. Keep the Adex in at 500mg of Test with no hCG and your nuts will be fine. Test alone isn't that hard to recover from.

When you do restart the hCG 3 weeks out, I'd do no more than 250iu E4thD and supplement with some NAC or Glutathione to make sure there's no desensitizing from the hCG. Probably won't be at only 250iu, but it's cheap, so why not use NAC?

Just my .02...

I personally found 125 2x/wk worked well for the maintenance purpose and slight bump in drive and edge.. going over the 250-300 week for maintenance add, unless you have some serious insensitivity issues, is no bueno as similarly mentioned IMO

NAC wouldnt hurt either... and just be sure to address the hcg first then dial in the adex in from there since the hcg is swaying the aromatase already again as everybody has already mentioned...

 

[SFGiants]

They key is learning how your body responds and how to react to that.

 

[Kaladryn]

What do you guys think?

E2 seems a bit low for a test level that high, how much AI and how much test? other than that looks good...

 

[SitySlicker1]

E2 seems a bit low for a test level that high, how much AI and how much test? other than that looks good...

Not sure what you mean by this, he tested 30 pg/ml and ranges are b/w 3-70 pg/ml. I thought this would be ideal?

Obviously his chances for prostate hypertrophy increase with his test being so high and his estrogen being in normal ranges, but are there any other reasons?

 

[Kaladryn]

Not sure what you mean by this, he tested 30 pg/ml and ranges are b/w 3-70 pg/ml. I thought this would be ideal?

Obviously his chances for prostate hypertrophy increase with his test being so high and his estrogen being in normal ranges, but are there any other reasons?

Test and E2 compete. Normal ranges are 10-40 generally. If his test level is several times normal, and his E2 is normal, he is going to be suffering the effects of low E2.

Say you are on a gram of test, your E2 is going to be around 200. Take an AI at the full normal daily dose (any AI, they are all about the same), and that E2 level is going to be around 100. Now if you somehow took enough AI to get your E2 down to 30 (pretty much impossible, but for arguments sake lets say it was possible to lower E2 that much) you would be suffering the side effects of extremely low E2.

In this case, I'm asking this because getting E2 to 30 on a lot of test would take an immense amount of AI, and that wouldn't be healthy either. It would take at least 1mg/day adex, probably more, to get E2 that low on 500mg test.

 

[SitySlicker1]

Test and E2 compete. Normal ranges are 10-40 generally. If his test level is several times normal, and his E2 is normal, he is going to be suffering the effects of low E2.

Say you are on a gram of test, your E2 is going to be around 200. Take an AI at the full normal daily dose (any AI, they are all about the same), and that E2 level is going to be around 100. Now if you somehow took enough AI to get your E2 down to 30 (pretty much impossible, but for arguments sake lets say it was possible to lower E2 that much) you would be suffering the side effects of extremely low E2.

Never looked at it that way, but it makes since. Its a very delicate system we play with here. Good info, thanks K.